克里希那穆提教育论坛's Archiver

简单和弦 发表于 2010-1-15 19:54

勇气是怎么回事?

克说[我不喜欢用"勇气"这个词]

我做很多事,尤其是一些自己认为是"喜欢"的事,是靠勇气的.如果说我不喜欢,那也是不可能的.是哪里出了问题呢?有勇气,我也感觉到是向着一个目标的努力,不努力又能怎么样呢?

凡人 发表于 2010-1-16 10:55

你只是希望成就自己吧  做了一件需要很大勇气的事 心里很有成就感 觉得自己了不起  这就需要勇气

Sue 发表于 2010-1-16 14:53

这段跟勇气擦边的,参考一下:

[font=Times New Roman][size=4]The root meaning of the word value is strength. It comes from the word valour. Strength is not a value. It becomes a value when it is the opposite of weakness. Strength - not of character which is the result of the pressure of society - is the essence of clarity. Clear thinking is without prejudices, without bias;it is observation without distortion. Strength or valour is not a thing to be cultivated as you would cultivate a plant or a new breed.It is not a result. A result has a cause and when there is a cause it indicates a weakness; the consequences of weakness are resistance or yielding. Clarity has no cause. Clarity is not an effect or result; it is the pure observation of thought and its total activity. This clarity is strength. [/size][/font]

[font=宋体][size=12pt]价值这个词的原意是力量,起源于英勇这个词。力量不是一种价值。有了虚弱这个对立面它才成为一种价值。力量,并不是来源于社会压力的一种品质,它的本质是清澈。清晰的思考不带偏见,没有倾向,是没有扭曲的观察。力量或者英勇不是可以培养的东西,就像培养一株植物或者一个新品种那样。它不是一个结果。一个结果会有一个原因,如果有原因那就说明有软弱;软弱的后果就是抗拒或者顺从。清澈没有原因,清澈不是一种效果或者结果;它是对思想及其所有活动的纯然观察。这种清澈就是力量。
[/size][/font]

简单和弦 发表于 2010-1-18 14:00

我很想产生清澈的思考,我希望自己清澈的思考,或者干脆说过去我从来不知道有一种状态是清澈的状态,那现在我知道了.正因为过去我不知道,我不能在听的过程了解这种状态的真实性,那么现在我能做的是什么?是看清我现在正在寻找,有一种非清澈的力量让我在寻找,丢弃这种自己力量吗?这个非清澈的力量好象是全部的我,我的全部.

Sue 发表于 2010-1-18 14:21

刚刚读到一段,很受启发,拿来与你分享:
[size=2]
  你有没有非常安静地坐着不动过?你试试看,静静地坐着,背脊挺直,然后觉察你的心念在做些什么。不要去控制它,不要去阻止它从一个念头跳到另一个念头,或是从一件有趣的事跳到另一件有趣的事,你只需要注意你的心念是如何活动的。你什么也不必做,只要观察它,就像坐在河岸边上观看河水流过一样。在河水中有好多东西,游鱼、落叶、死掉的动物;但是河水是一直活动的,你的心念就像它一样,永远不肯安定,像蝴蝶般从一件事飞舞到另一件事上。
  假如你听到一首歌,请问你是怎么听的?也许你喜欢这个歌者,他也许有一张很好看的脸,也许你领悟了他唱的歌词含义,但是在这一切事物的深处,譬如当你深入听一首歌时,你其实是在听音与音之间的寂静,不是吗?同样的,你也可以试试非常安静地坐着,没有烦躁不安,不要移动双脚,而只是觉察心念。这是一件很好玩的事,如果你把它当成一件好玩的事、一件有趣的事,你会发现,你不需要任何努力,就能使心念安歇下来。然后所有的压抑、审判和评估就消失了。心处在这种安静的状态,它必定是静止的,然后你就会明白什么是喜悦。你知道喜悦是什么吗?它就是欢笑,对万事万物都感觉快乐,没有任何原因的快乐,同时能感受生活的喜悦,也能直接深入于另一张脸孔,而没有一点恐惧。
  你有没有真的看过一个人的脸?你可曾深入于你的老师、你的父母、大官、仆人、穷人的脸,然后看看会怎么样?大部分的人都害怕直接看着别人的脸,别人也不喜欢我们那样去看他们,因为他们害怕。没有人想剖露自己,我们都把自己武装起来,藏身在多重的神秘、痛苦、渴求和期望的背后。非常少数的人能直接深入于你的脸孔且面带微笑。
  微笑及快乐是非常重要的,因为如果一个人的心中缺少一首歌,生活就变得极为乏味了。你可以从一间庙拜到另一间庙,从某一个丈夫或妻子转换到另一个,寻找新的老师或上师。但是如果你得不到内心的喜悦,生命的意义就很小了。寻找内心的喜悦不是一件容易的事,因为我们大部分人的不满都是极为浮面的。
  你明白不满是什么意思吗?了解不满是很困难的事。因为大部分的人把不满导向了某一个特定的方向,因此它被抹杀了。也就是说,我们惟一关心的其实是把自己安置在一个安全的地位,有着稳定的利益和声望,以为这样就可以不被干扰了。这种情况在家庭、学校都有,老师不想被打扰,因此他们总是依循成规。但是人一旦真的感到不满时,一定会开始探索、质疑,于是就一定会有波动。可是只有从真正的不满之中,才有创新的才能。
  你知道创新的才能是什么吗?只有当你不被强迫去做一些事情时,你才具有主动创造的能力,但并不一定是什么伟大的事,伟大的事可能以后才会发生。当你在种一棵树,发出自然的善心,对一个背负重物的人微笑,从路中移开一块石头,或是在路中抚慰一只动物,主动创造的力量便展开了。如果你想了解创造力这个不平凡的东西,你就必须从这种生活小事开始做起。只有当你心中存有很深的不满时,你才会采取主动,从主动中再产生创造的才能。
  不要害怕不满足,你要滋养它,直到火星变成火焰,然后你就能永远对所有的事都不满——对你的工作、家庭、追求金钱、地位、权力等传统感到不满足,然后你才会真正开始思考、醒悟。但是等你年长之后,你会发现维持这种不满的精神是非常困难的。你有孩子要养育,还要考虑工作上的需求,你的邻居及社会的意见都在左右你,不久你就开始失去不满的火焰。当你感觉不满时,你会打开收音机,你去寻找灵性上师,你做祭供,你参加俱乐部,你喝酒,追求女人,你去做任何可以消灭不满的火焰的事。但是缺少了这种不满的火焰,你就永远不会有主动创造的才能。要寻找真理,一定要对旧有的秩序做一番革新。但是你的父母愈有钱,你的老师的工作愈稳定,他们就愈不希望你革新。
  创造力并不只是绘画或写诗而已,这些都是好事,但是意义不大。重要的是,你必须彻底不满。这种彻底不满乃是主动力开始产生,一旦它成熟时,就变成了创造力。这是发现真理、上帝惟一的道路,因为具有创造力的境界就是上帝。所以一个人一定要具备这种不满,但是其中含着喜悦,你明白吗?人一定要彻底地不满,但是却不抱怨,而是带着欢乐、喜悦和爱。会不满的人大部分是极为乏味的,他们总是抱怨某件事不对劲,不是希望处在较好的环境,就是希望情况有所不同,因为他们的不满是很肤浅的。而那些完全不知道不满的人,他们的精神早已死了。
  如果你能从年轻时就革新,在你年长时,还能保持你的不满,并带着喜悦的活力及深挚的情感,那么你不满的火焰就会带来不寻常的意义,因为它会累积,它会创造,它会为你的生命带来新的东西。为了达到目的,你必须有完善的教育,这不只是准备考试或向成功的目标迈进,而是帮助你思考并且给你空间的教育,这儿所说的空间,不是一个大一点的卧室或高一点的屋顶,而是让你的思想成长的空间,使你的思想不被任何信仰或恐惧所捆绑。[/size]

Sue 发表于 2010-1-18 14:25

英文原文给你参考一下:

[b][size=2][color=dimgray]THIS MATTER OF CULTURE CHAPTER 5
[/color][/size][/b]
[color=dimgray]HAVE YOU EVER sat very quietly without any movement? You try it, sit really still, with your back straight, and observe what your mind is doing. Don`t try to control it, don't say it should not jump from one thought to another, from one interest to another, but just be aware of how your mind is jumping. Don't do anything about it, but watch it as from the banks of a river you watch the water flow by. In the flowing river there are so many things - fishes, leaves, dead animals - but it is always living, moving, and your mind is like that. It is everlastingly restless, flitting from one thing to another like a butterfly.
     When you listen to a song, how do you listen to it? You may like the person who is singing, he may have a nice face, and you may follow the meaning of the words; but behind all that, when you listen to a song, you are listening to the tones and to the silence between the tones, are you not? In the same way, try sitting very quietly without fidgeting, without moving your hands or even your toes, and just watch your mind. It is great fun. If you try it as fun, as an amusing thing, you will find that the mind begins to settle down without any effort on your part to control it. There is then no censor, no judge, no evaluator; and when the mind is thus very quiet of itself, spontaneously still, you will discover what it is to be gay. Do you know what gaiety is? It is just to laugh, to take delight in anything or nothing, to know the joy of living, smiling, looking straight into the face of another without any sense of fear.
     Have you ever really looked anybody in the face? Have you ever looked into the face of your teacher, of your parent, of the big official, of the servant, the poor coolie, and seen what happens? Most of us are afraid to look directly into the face of an- other; and others don't want us to look at them in that way, because they also are frightened. Nobody wants to reveal himself; we are all on guard, hiding behind various layers of misery, suffering, longing, hope, and there are very few who can look you straight in the face and smile. And it is very important to smile, to be happy; because, you see, without a song in one's heart life becomes very dull. One may go from temple to temple, from one husband or wife to another, or one may find a new teacher or guru; but if there is not this inward joy, life has very little meaning. And to find this inward joy is not easy, because most of us are only superficially discontented.
     Do you know what it means to be discontented? It is very difficult to understand discontent, because most of us canalize discontent in a certain direction and thereby smother it. That is, our only concern is to establish ourselves in a secure position with well-established interests and prestige, so as not to be disturbed. It happens in homes and in schools too. The teachers don't want to be disturbed, and that is why they follow the old routine; because the moment one is really discontented and begins to inquire, to question, there is bound to be disturbance. But it is only through real discontent that one has initiative.
     Do you know what initiative is? You have initiative when you initiate or start something without being prompted. It need not be anything very great or extraordinary - that may come later; but there is the spark of initiative when you plant a tree on your own, when you are spontaneously kind, when you smile at a man who is carrying a heavy load, when you remove a stone from the path, or pat an animal along the way. That is a small beginning of the tremendous initiative you must have if you are to know this extraordinary thing called creativeness. Creativeness has its roots in the initiative which comes into being only when there is deep discontent.
     Don't be afraid of discontent, but give it nourishment until the spark becomes a flame and you are everlastingly discontented with everything - with your jobs, with your families, with the traditional pursuit of money, position, power - so that you really begin to think, to discover. But as you grow older you will find that to maintain this spirit of discontent is very difficult. You have children to provide for and the demands of your job to consider; the opinion of your neighbours, of society closing in upon you, and soon you begin to lose this burning flame of discontent. When you feel discontented you turn on the radio, you go to a guru, do puja, join a club, drink, run after women - anything to smother the flame. But, you see, without this flame of discontent you will never have the initiative which is the beginning of creativeness. To find out what is true you must be in revolt against the established order; but the more money your parents have and the more secure your teachers are in their jobs, the less they want you to revolt.
     Creativeness is not merely a matter of painting pictures or writing poems, which is good to do, but which is very little in itself. What is important is to be wholly discontented, for such total discontent is the beginning of the initiative which becomes creative as it matures; and that is the only way to find out what is truth, what is God, because the creative state is God.
     So one must have this total discontent - but with joy. Do you understand? One must be wholly discontented, not complainingly, but with joy, with gaiety, with love. Most people who are discontented are terrible bores; they are always complaining that something or other is not right, or wishing they were in a better position, or wanting circumstances to be different, because their discontent is very superficial. And those who are not discontented at all are already dead.
     If you can be in revolt while you are young, and as you grow older keep your discontent alive with the vitality of joy and great affection, then that flame of discontent will have an extraordinary significance because it will build, it will create, it will bring new things into being. For this you must have the right kind of education, which is not the kind that merely prepares you to get a job or to climb the ladder of success, but the education that helps you to think and gives you space - space, not in the form of a larger bedroom or a higher roof, but space for your mind to grow so that it is not bound by any belief, by any fear.[/color]

简单和弦 发表于 2010-1-19 13:21

很奇怪,试了几次这段话都读不下来,注意力集中不了.以前读到过也这段话,有几句印象还很深,是不是可以说我们看问题的深度或者角度不同?还是我们感兴趣的部分不同?

但我看这段就很有感触,也是以前读过的,我抄出来分享一下:
当你们如此明确地宣称寻求的欲望是[color=red]必然[/color]的时候,对问题真实的发现就已经受到障碍,难道不是吗?当你接受任何东西作为最后的,盖棺论定的结论的时候,难道所有的探究不是都结束了吗?
......
我们由于各种不同的心理原因而接受某种教条和信仰,并且通过时间的过程被接受的东西从而成为了"不可避免的",一种所谓的人类的必需.
......
各种形式的冲突显现为[color=red]生活方式[/color],而没有它我们就认为生活没有意义.对我们大多数人来说, 斗争的停止就是死亡.寻求意味着斗争,冲突,而这个过程对人类而言难道是至关重要的吗?或者有没有一种没有寻求和斗争的不同的生活"方式"呢?我们为什么寻求呢?寻求什么呢?
[i][size=1]M问:难道就没有一个点或一个瞬间我们突然发现自己没有在寻求,没有在斗争吗?[/size][/i]
[i][size=1]另一人R:那个瞬间也许只是厌倦的结果,再次陷入寻求与恐惧的邪恶循环之前的短暂停顿.[/size][/i]
[i][size=1]M:或者它也许超出了时间的范畴.[/size][/i]

克:我们正在谈论的这个"瞬间"是在时间以外的吗?或者它只是一个再次开始寻求以前的暂停点吗?我们为什么寻求呢?这个寻求有可能终止吗?除非我们[color=red]自己[/color]发现为什么要寻求和斗争,否则寻求已经结束的状态对我们来说将依然是一个幻象,没有任何意义.

Sue 发表于 2010-1-19 15:32

为什么我们不经检验地接受了那些“必然”“不可避免”“理所当然”的概念、观念、标准和生活方式呢?

还是我们的心智已经十分老朽,不再保持年轻的新鲜活力?

凡人 发表于 2010-1-19 16:01

回8楼 我觉得已经 迟钝 麻木的 心智是 觉察不到的 他们不需要克  他们只需要做他们喜欢做的就可以了 克的教诲真是给那些 敏感 还在迷茫中的人准备的 呵呵

Sue 发表于 2010-1-19 16:05

真正敏感的心灵,是不会迷茫的,选择不再存在,清晰是它的特质。

还在迷茫,因为还在相当程度上是迟滞的,钝怠的,你说呢?有迷惑没有看清,而那迷惑是什么呢?或者来源于哪里呢?

简单和弦 发表于 2010-1-19 18:44

至少现在动摇了,"生活方式","不可避免"它们那么根深蒂固的存在,已经有点儿开始动摇了,虽然它们似乎是与全部的我融合在一起,也可以说它们就是我(后半句是克的话,我还没有彻底理解),但是这个动摇开始了,然后呢,我就开始想着有没有一种另外的方式来代替,不可能没有代替吧?没有代替吗?为什么我会想找一个代替的方式呢?毫不犹豫地,立即地,没有任何停留地-----要找一个代替.
有一种情况是通过克或者其他人告诉我,有一个真实的状态,我有点知道自己的不真实,于是我产生了勇气,我就象没有枯萎的叶子,但是我要丢弃它,真是暴力啊.
还有一种情况,我根本不知道要做什么,也不知道要哪里去,不安啊.那安是什么,就是回去以前的那个我里面,也已经不想回去了

凡人 发表于 2010-1-19 22:12

说点个人感觉  一个人本质决定了他对哪些东西感兴趣 当他没有找到  他永远不满足  我想的就是这个中途所谓迷茫。。追求世俗的东西  还是 那些也不能满意。。

凡人 发表于 2010-1-19 22:14

如果是敏感的  那么便会体会他人痛苦 也会觉知自己的痛苦 那么他便会无法逃避 只有征服痛苦  而不仅仅是投身与世俗的满足  娶妻生子 人际关系 各种娱乐就能满足

凡人 发表于 2010-1-19 22:16

如果我是敏感的 我就会觉知别人的局限,尽管他们是不觉察的 我也会觉知自己的局限 痛苦等  我无法逃避 我只有彻底征服他们

简单和弦 发表于 2010-1-20 12:52

通常我的敏感是对某一个特定的情形,并且心里已经存在一个没有被意识到的标准,别人的局限如果符合这个标准,我很敏感地感受到,或者别人不符合这个标准,我也很敏感的感受到.

现在我会注意到当别人的局限和我的标准接触后,(哈哈,就是我和别人产生交流以后,我怎么说话都奇奇怪怪的了),我敏感地看到了我心里本来就存在一个标准,是这个标准在与别人交流.

如果我很在意一件事情的成败与结果,我会继续努力,也许是用勇气,或者就象别人把我惹生气以后我立刻具备了一种战斗的力量,用这些力量产生一系列的行动.

现在我听到克的话以后,我发现做什么都不行,去到哪里都不对,无意之间,我又把这个发现做为了一个目标,本来想找解脱,现在又多了一条绳.

好了,我能看到的差不多就这些了

对了,我心中以前就存在的那个标准,它是不是具备能量?要不它怎么会产生一系列的行为呢?

凡人 发表于 2010-1-20 14:11

回15楼  说点个人感觉  我在某种思维模式的 影响下会自动化的反映 我有渴望 欲望 幻想 我会向外寻找 扩张   那时那个思维模式并没有被觉察到  用个克的比喻就是我们只看到了火焰  没有看到火  当一天天觉察深入你的意识 就是觉察那个火焰 那个主导你的思维模式 就会被看见了  一旦出现了局限  我瞬间就可以看见那个思维模式   那么一旦被看见  头脑就停止了 安静 了   那么  当你越来越深入的看到那些局限 那些局限 就会被 清理 你会越来越觉得自由 或者 无限

凡人 发表于 2010-1-20 14:19

我们心中 那些标准 就是我们要清理的东西   这也就是局限  当一个人奋斗的时候 他是热情的 充满活力 的   如果你有标准了 偏见了 你还能看到新的东西吗 你只是用你过去的背景看 就像 透过一块黑色的玻璃 看

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