转世和业
[size=3][font=Arial][color=#696969]Question: Do you accept the law of reincarnation and karma as valid, or do you envisage a state of complete annihilation?Krishnamurti: Now, most of you probably believe in reincarnation and karma, so please do not resist what I am going to say. Through resistance we do not understand, through exclusion there is no communion; to understand something, we must love it, which means we must be in communion with it and not be afraid of it.
First of all, belief in any form is the denial of truth; a believing mind is not an exploring mind, a believing mind can never be in a state of experiencing. Belief is merely a tether created by a particular desire. A man who believes in reincarnation cannot know the truth of it, because his belief is merely a comfort, an escape from death, from the fear of non-continuity; such a man cannot find the truth of reincarnation, because what he wants is comfort, not truth, Truth may give him comfort or it may be a disturbing factor; but if he starts with the desire to find comfort, he cannot see the truth. Now, if you are serious, you and I are going to find out the truth of the matter, and what is important is how we approach the problem. How do you and I approach the problem of reincarnation? Are you approaching it through fear, through curiosity, through the desire for continuity? Or, do you want to know what is? I am not avoiding the question. A mind that wants to know the truth, whatever it is, is surely in a different state from the mind which is afraid of death and is seeking comfort, continuity, and therefore clings to reincarnation. Such a mind is obviously not in a state of discovery. So, the approach to the problem matters; and I am taking it for granted that you are approaching the problem rightly, not through any desire for comfort, but to find out the truth of the matter.
Now, what do you mean by reincarnation? What is it that reincarnates? You know there is death, and do what you will, you cannot avoid it. You may postpone death, but this is a fact, which we will go into presently. What is it that reincarnates? It is either one of two things, is it not? Either it is a spiritual entity, or it is a thing which is merely an accumulation of experience, of knowledge, of memory, not only individual but collective, which takes form again in another life. So, let us examine those two things. What do we mean by a `spiritual entity'? Is there a spiritual entity in you, something which is not of the mind, which is beyond sensation, something which is not of time, something immortal? You will say, `Yes' - all religious people do. You say that there is a spiritual entity which is beyond time, beyond the mind, beyond death. Please do not resist, let us think it out. If you say there is a spiritual entity in you, it is obviously the product of thought, is it not? You have been told about it, it is not your experience. As a man is conditioned by being brought up with the idea that there is no spiritual entity, but only the coming together of various social, economic and environmental influences, so you are conditioned to the idea of a spiritual entity, are you not? Even if it is your own discovery that there is a spiritual entity, surely it is still within the field of thought; and thought is the result of time, thought is the product of the past, thought is accumulation, memory. That is, if you can think about the spiritual entity, surely that entity is still within the field of thought, therefore it is the product of thought, the projection of thought; and therefore it is not a spiritual entity. What you can think about is still within the field of thought, so it cannot be something beyond thought.
Now, if there is no spiritual entity, then what is it that reincarnates? And if there is a spiritual entity, can it reincarnate? Is it a thing of time, is it a thing of memory that comes and goes at your convenience, at your desire? If it is born, if it is a process in time, if it has progress, surely it is not a spiritual entity; and if it is not of time, then there can be no question of reincarnating, taking on a new life. So, if the spiritual entity is not, then the `you' is merely a bundle of accumulated memories, the `you' is your property, your wife, your husband, your children, your name, your qualities. The accumulation of the experiences of the past in conjunction with the present is the `you', both the conscious and the unconscious, the collective as well as the individual - that whole bundle is the `you; and that bundle asks, `Shall I reincarnate, shall I have continuity, what happens after death?' If there is a spiritual entity, it is beyond thought, it cannot be caught in the net of the mind; and to discover that entity, that spiritual state, the mind must be quiet, it cannot be agitated with the functioning of thought. Now you are asking whether the `you' has continuity - the `you' being the name, the property, the furniture, the memories, the idiosyncrasies, the experiences, the accumulated knowledge. Has that continuity? That is, has conditioned thought a continuity? Obviously, thought has continuity, for that you do not have to enquire far. You have continuity in your children, in your property, in your name; obviously, that continues in one form or another. But you are not satisfied with that continuity, are you? You want to continue as a spiritual entity, not merely as thought, a bundle of reactions - there is no fun in that. But are you anything more than that? Are you anything more than your religion, your beliefs, your caste divisions, your superstitions, traditions and future hopes? Are you anything more than that? You would like to think you are more than that, but the fact is you are that and nothing else. There may be something beyond; but to discover something beyond, all this has to come to an end. So, when you enquire into the problem of reincarnation, you are concerned, not with what is beyond, but with the continuity of thought identified as the `you; and obviously, there is continuity.
Now, another question involved in this is the problem of death, What is death? Is death merely the ending of the body? And why is it that we are so afraid of death? Because we cling to continuity and we see that there is an ending of continuity when we die, we want assurance of continuity on the other side, and that is why we believe in life after death; but any amount of guarantees of continuity, all the research societies, all the books and information, will never satisfy you. Death is always the unknown; you may have all the information about it, but the known is afraid of the unknown, and will always be. So, one of the problems in this question is this: Is continuity creative? Can that which is continuous discover anything beyond itself? Sir, can that which has continuity know something beyond its own field? That is the problem, and it is a problem which you are unwilling to face - and that is why you are afraid of death. That which continues can never be creative; it is only in ending that there is the new. Only when the known comes to an end is there creation, the new, the unknown; but as long as we cling to the desire for continuity, which is thought identified as the `me', that thought will continue, and that which continues has in it the seed of death and decay, it is not creative. It is only that which ends that can see the new, the fresh, the whole, the unknown. Sir, this is simple and very clear. As long as you are continuing in the habit of a particular thought, surely you cannot know the new, can you? As long as you cling to your traditions, to your name, to your properties, you cannot know anything new, can you? It is only when you let all that go completely that the new comes. But you dare not let go of the old because you are afraid of the new; that is why you are afraid of death, and that is why you have all the innumerable escapes. More books are written on death than on life, because life you want to avoid. Living is to you a continuity, and that which continues withers, has no life; it is always afraid of coming to an end - and that is why you want immortality. You have your immortality in your name, in your property, in your furniture, in your son, your clothes, your house; all that is your immortality - you have it, but you want something more. You want immortality on the other side - and you have that too, which is your thought, identified as yourself, continuing; `yourself' being your furniture, your hats, your substitutions, your beliefs. But should you not find out whether that which continues can ever know the timeless? That which continues implies a process of time, the past, the present and the future. That is, continuance is the past in conjunction with the present breeding the tomorrow, the future, which again breeds another future; and so there is continuity. But does that continuity bring about, can that continuity discover the unknown, the unknowable, the eternal? And if it cannot, what is the point of having that thought, identified as the `me', continue? The `me', which is identified thought, must be in a state of ceaseless conflict, constant suffering, perpetual worry over problems, and so on; and that is the lot of continuity. It is only when the mind comes to an end, when it is not identified as the `me', that you will know that which is beyond time; but merely to speculate what is beyond is a waste of energy, it is the action of a sluggard. So, that which has continuance can never know the real, but that which has an ending shall know the real. Death alone can show the way to reality - not the death of old age or of disease, but the death of every day, dying every minute, so that you see the new.
In this question is also involved the problem of karma.1 I wonder if you would rather I discussed this another time? It is already half past seven. Do you want me to go into it?
Comment from the Audience: Yes, Sir.
Krishnamurti: Have you under stood what I have said about reincarnation? Have you, Sirs? Why this strange silence? (Interruption.) This is not a discussion, Sir. We will discuss next Tuesday the question of time, and on Thursday evening we will discuss meditation; but if you really think about what has just been said, you will see the extraordinary depth of ending, of dying. The mind that can die every minute shall know the eternal; but the mind that has continuance can never know that which is beyond the mind. Sir that is not a thing to be quoted, discussed; you must live it, and then only you will know the beauty of it, you will know the depth and the significance of dying each minute. Dying is merely the ending of the past, which is memory - not the memory, the recognition of facts, but the ending of the psychological accumulation as the `me' and the `mine', and in that ending of identified thought, there is the new.
Now you want me to answer the question on karma. Please approach it with freedom, not with resistance not with superstition, not with your beliefs. Obviously, there is cause and effect. The mind is the result of a cause, you are the result, the product of yesterday, and of many, many thousands of yesterdays; cause and effect are an obvious fact. The seedling has in it both cause and effect. It is specialized; a particular seed cannot become something different. The seed of wheat is specialized, but we human beings are different, are we not? That which specializes can be destroyed, anything that specializes comes to an end, biologically as well as psychologically; but with us it is different, is it not? We see that cause becomes effect, and what was effect becomes a further cause - it is very simple effect, and what was effect becomes a further cause - it is very simple. Today is the result of yesterday, and tomorrow is the result of today; yesterday was the cause of today, and today is the cause of tomorrow. What was effect becomes cause, so it is a process without an end. There is no cause apart from effect, there is no division between cause and effect, because cause and effect flow into each other; and if one can see the process of cause and effect as it actually operates, one can be free of it. As long as we are concerned with the mere reconciliation of effects, cause takes patterns, and the patterns then become the issue, the motive of action; but is there at any time a line of demarcation where cause ends and effect begins? Surely not, because cause and effect are in constant movement. In fact, there is no cause and no effect, but only a movement of the `what has been' through the present to the future; and for a mind that is caught in this process of the `what has been' using the present as a passage to the `what will be', there is only a result. That is, such a mind is only concerned with results, with the reconciliation of effects, and hence for such a mind there is no escape beyond its own projections. So, as long as thought is caught in the process of cause and effect, the mind can proceed only in its own enclosure, and therefore there is no freedom. There is freedom only when we see that the process of cause and effect is not stationary, static, but in movement; when understood, that movement comes to an end - and then one can go beyond.
So, as long as the mind is merely responding to stimuli from the past, whatever it does is merely furthering its own misery; but when it sees and understands the fact of this whole process of cause and effect, of this whole process of time, that very understanding of the fact is freedom from the fact. Then only can the mind know that which is not a result or a cause. Truth is not a result, truth is not a cause, it is something which has no cause at all. That which has a cause is of the mind, that which has an effect is of the mind; and to know the causeless, the eternal, that which is beyond time, the mind, which is the effect of time, must come to an end. Thought, which is the effect as well as the cause, must come to an end, and only then can that which is beyond time be known.
BOMBAY 4TH PUBLIC TALK 5TH MARCH 1950[/color][/font][/size] 在笑笑译文[url=http://www.jkrishnamurti.org.cn/viewthread.php?tid=2157&extra=page%3D3]http://www.jkrishnamurti.org.cn/viewthread.php?tid=2157&extra=page%3D3[/url]的基础上修改：
问题：你是否认可转世和业是有效力的法则，还是你看到一种完全寂灭的状态？
克：你们大部分人相信转世和业，因此请不要抗拒我要说的话。通过抗拒，我们没法明白，通过排斥，就无法沟通；要了解某件事情，我们必须热爱它，那意味着我们必须同它融合而不是害怕它。
首先，任何形式的信念都是对真相的否定；一个相信的头脑不是一个探索的头脑，抱有信念的头脑永远不能处在体验的状态。信念只是一个由特定欲望制造的束缚。一个相信转世的人不可能知道它的真实性，因为他的信念仅仅是一个安慰，一种对死亡逃避，对生命无法延续的恐惧的逃避。这样的人不可能发现转世这件事的真实性，因为他要的是安慰，不是真相。真相可能会给他安慰，也可能是一个不安的因素；但是如果他从寻找安慰的渴望开始的话，他就看不到真相。现在，如果你是认真的，你和我一起去发现这件事情的真相，重要的是我们如何接近这个问题。你和我要怎样着手转世这个问题？你是通过恐惧，通过好奇心，通过延续生命的欲望来接近它吗？还是你想知道现在的实际状况是什么？我不是在回避这个问题。无论真相是什么，一个想知道真相的头脑，无疑已经处于一种不同的状态中，与恐惧死亡、寻求安慰、延续性并且紧抓转世这个概念的头脑不同了。那样的一个头脑显然没有处于一个探索的状态。因此如何着手一个问题，这点很重要；我理所当然地认为你是在正确地接近问题，不是通过对安慰的渴望，而是要去发现事情的真相。
那么，你说的转世是什么意思？转世的是什么？你知道有死亡，你做想做的事，但你避免不了死亡。你可能会延迟死亡，但这是个事实，我们马上就深入探讨这一点。转世的是什么？是下述的两者之一，是不是？要么它是一个精神实体，要么只是一个经验、知识、记忆积累出的东西，不但是个人的而且是集体的积累，它在另一世中成形。那么，让我们来检视这两件事情。我们说的“精神实体”意味着什么？你内在有没有一个精神实体，某种不来自你的头脑的东西，它超越感知、不受时间限制，而且是不朽的？你会说，“是的”——所有信仰宗教的人都会这样说。你说有一个精神实体，它超越时间、超越头脑、超越死亡。请不要抵触，让我们来想想清楚。如果你说你内在有个精神实体，很显然那是思考的产物，不是吗？有人这么跟你说过了，那不是你自己的体验。就像一个人在被抚养长大的过程中，被“没有精神实体”这样一个观念所局限一样，他只是受各种社会、经济、环境影响的结果，你同样被“有精神实体”这样一个观念所局限，不是吗？即使是你自己发现有精神实体，这肯定还仅仅是在思想领域之内；而思想是时间的结果，思想是过去的产物，思想是积累是记忆。也就是说，如果你能思考精神实体，那么那个实体必然还是在思想的领域内，因此它依然是思想的产物、思想的投射；因此也就没有精神实体。你能思考的东西，就还是在思想的领域之内，所以它不可能是超越思想的东西。
现在，如果没有精神实体，那么转世的是什么？如果有精神实体，它能转世吗？它是不是一个时间上的事情，它是不是为着你的便利、为着你的欲望而来来去去的一种记忆？如果它能转世出生，如果它是一个时间过程，如果它有进步可言，那么它肯定不是精神实体；如果它不是时间的，那么就不存在转世开始一个新生命的问题了。那么，如果没有精神实体，那么“你”仅仅是由记忆累积起来的一堆东西，“你”就是你的财产、你的妻子、你的丈夫、你的孩子、你的名字、你的品质。所有过去经验的积累与现在结合在一起，就是“你”，所有有意识的和无意识的、集体的和个体的经验积累起来的整团东西，就是“你”；然后这团东西问，“我能转世吗，我能继续生命吗，死后会发生什么？”如果有一个精神实体，那么它是超越思想的，不能在头脑的网中被捕捉；要去发现那个实体，那个精神状态，头脑必须安静，它不能因思想的运作而焦躁不安。现在你问“你”是否能够延续——这个“你”就是名字、财产、家具、记忆、习气、经验和积累的知识。这些能延续吗？也就是，局限的思想能延续吗？显然思想有延续性，为此你不必深入探询就能明白。你的延续性存在于你的孩子、你的财产、你的名字中，这种延续性以这种或者那种形式进行着，但你不满意这种延续性，对吗？你希望作为一个精神实体延续下去，而不仅仅作为思想、一堆反应继续下去——这没什么意思。但是你有比这更多的东西吗？有比你的宗教、你的信仰、你的等级划分、你的迷信、传统和对将来的希望更多的东西吗？你还有比这些更多的东西吗？你乐于认为自己比这更多，但事实上你就是这些东西，没有其他的了。也许有超越这之外的东西；但是要发现那超越的东西，这一切都必须终结。因此，当你询问转世的问题，你所关注的，不是那超越之物，而是被认作“你”的那些思想的延续；显然，是有某种连续性的。
现在另外一个与此有关的问题是死亡。什么是死亡？死亡仅仅是一个身体的结束？我们为什么如此恐惧死亡？因为我们紧紧攀援着一种延续性，我们看到当我们死去时这连续性就终结，而我们想在另外一个世界中确保这种延续，这就是我们相信死后还会有生命的原因；但是不管关于这延续性有多少承诺，所有的研究社团、所有的书和资料都无法让你满意。死亡总是未知的，你可以拥有关于它的所有资料，但是已知害怕未知，并且总是如此。因此这个问题涉及的诸多问题中的一个是：延续性有创造力吗？延续的东西能发现任何超越它自己的东西吗？先生，有延续性的东西能知道超越它自身领域的东西吗？这就是问题，是一个你不愿意面对的问题——而这就是你恐惧死亡的原因。延续的东西从来都不是创造性的；只有在终结中才有新的东西出现。只有当已知走到终点才能有创造、新的、未知的东西出现；但是只要我们还紧紧攀援想要延续的愿望，也就是思想认同的“我”，这个思想会延续，而延续的东西自身就有着死亡和腐败的种子，它没有创造力。只有在终结的时候才能看到那崭新的、新鲜的、完整的、未知的。先生，这是非常简单清晰的。只要你继续特定的思维习惯，你肯定无法发现新的东西，不是吗？只要你抓住你的传统、你的名字、你的财产，你就不可能知道任何新的东西，是不是？只有当你完全彻底地放开这些，新的东西才会出现。但是你不敢放开过去的一切，因为你对新的东西充满了恐惧；那就是你为什么会害怕死亡，这也是你有无数种逃避方式的原因。关于死亡的书写的要比关于生活的书多，因为你想逃避生活。对你来说生存是有连续性的，而这延续的东西渐渐枯萎，失去生命力；它总是恐惧走向终点——这就是你希望不朽的原因。你的不朽存在于你的名字，你的财产，你的家具，你的儿子，你的衣服，你的房子里；所有这些都是你的不朽——你拥有它，但是你想要更多。你想要彼岸的不朽——你要那些继续下去，也就是你的思想，你认同的自己继续下去；“你自己”就是你的家具，你的帽子，你的替代品，你的信念。但是你难道不该去发现持续的东西到底能否知道那超越时间之物？延续的东西意味着时间的过程，过去、现在和将来。也就是说，过去与现在相接并滋生明天、未来，未来再一次滋生下一个未来；这就有了连续性。但是这个延续性能带来，这延续性能发现未知、不可知和永恒吗？如果不能，那么让这个认同为“我”的思想延续下去，还有什么意义？这个“我”，也就是思想，必然处于无休止的冲突、不停的痛苦和没完没了的对问题的担忧等等之中；这就是延续性的必然命运。只有当思想走到终点，当它不再认同为“我”，这时你才会知道那超越时间之物；但是仅仅去猜测那超越时间的是什么，是浪费能量，那是懒汉的行为。因此，那具有连续性的东西永远不能知道真实，但那个终点会知道真实。死亡本身就能揭示真实之路——不是因为年纪大或者疾病的死亡，而是每天都死去、每分钟都死去，这样你就能看到新的东西。
这个问题还涉及到另外一个问题“业”。我想知道你们是否愿意我下次再讨论这个问题？现在已经7点半了。你们想让我深入这个问题吗？
观众回答：是的，先生。
克：你们明白关于转世我所说的那些话了吗?明白了吗，先生们？为什么安静得这么奇怪？（中断。）这不是一个讨论，先生。我们将在下周二讨论时间的问题，我们将在下周四晚上讨论冥想；但是如果你真的思考了我们刚刚所讲的，你将会看到终结和死亡那非凡的深度。可以在每一分钟死去的头脑，能够知道永恒；但是有延续性的头脑永远无法知道那超越头脑的东西。先生，这不是一件要被引用、被讨论的事情；你必须活出它，只有这时你才会知道它的美，你会知道每分钟死去的深度和意义。死亡仅仅是过去的终结，也就是记忆——不是记忆、对事实的认知，而是作为“我”和“我的”这些心理积累的终结，在局限的思想终结的时候，就有了崭新的东西。
现在你要我回答“业”的问题。请自由地接近它，不带着抵触，不带着迷信，不带着你的信念。显然，存在着原因和结果。头脑是某个原因的结果，你就是结果——昨天和成千上万个昨天的产物；原因和结果是一个显而易见的事实。幼苗之中既有因也有果。它是特定的；一个特定的种子不可能变成别的什么东西。小麦的种子是特定的，但是我们人类不同，不是吗？特定的东西能被摧毁，任何特定的东西都会终结，生理上和心理上都是如此；但我们是不同的，对不对？我们看到原因变成结果，而结果又会进一步变成原因——这是很简单的结果，结果变成将来的原因——这很简单。今天是昨天的结果，明天是今天的结果；昨天是今天的因，今天又是明天的因。果又变成因，所以它是一个没有休止的过程。没有脱离果的因，在因果之间没有界限，因为因果是相互渗透的。如果一个人能够看到因果的实际运作过程，那么他就可以从中解脱。只要我们关心的还只是果的止息，因就会成形，那形式就会变成问题的源头，变成行为的动机；但是在因的结束和果的开始之间有分界线吗，有这样的时候吗？肯定没有，因为因果在不断的运动中。事实上没有原因也没有结果，只有从“已经如何”经过现在通向未来的运动；“已经如何”利用现在作为通道通向“将要如何”，对于困在这个过程中的头脑来说，只有一种结果。也就是，这样的一个头脑，只关注结果，只关注结果的止息，因而这样一个头脑无法逃脱它自己的投射。所以，只要思想被困在因果的过程中，头脑就只能在它自己的包裹中行进，因此没有自由。只有当我们看到因果过程不是固定的、静态的而是运动的，我们才有自由；当明白了这一点，那运动就走向了终结——然后一个人才可以超越。
因此，只要思想还只是在回应过去的刺激，那么无论它做什么都只是在加深自己的苦难。但是当它看到并理解了这整个因果过程的事实，这整个的时间过程，这种对事实的了解本身就是从事实中的解脱。只有这时头脑才会知道那既不是原因也不是结果的东西。真理不是原因，真理不是结果，它根本没有原因。有原因的东西是来自头脑的、有结果的东西是来自头脑的，而要知道那无缘无故的、永恒的、超越时间的东西，作为时间的结果的头脑，必须终结。既是因也是果的思想，必须结束，只有此时才能知道那超越时间的东西。 辛苦拉，感谢大家！:loveliness: So our sorrow is tinged with this self-pity, and with fear. And naturally when there is this fear, self-pity, uncertainty, one accepts strangely every form of belief. You know the whole of Asia believes in reincarnation. You know what that means? Being reborn next life. Now when you enquire into that, what is it that is going to be reborn next life, you come against difficulties. What is it? Yourself? What are you? A lot of words, a lot of opinions, attachments to your furniture, to your shoes, to your opinions, to your conditioning, all that is going to be born next life, which you call the soul. And incarnation implies also that what you are today you will be again next life, therefore behave. You understand? Behave, not tomorrow but today, because what you are today you are going to pay for it next life. Incarnate today, afresh, not next life. And those people who believe in this thing don't bother about behaviour at all, it is just a matter of belief, which has no value, because what you do today, what you are today, your activity, your conditioning, what you actually are, not what you think you should be - if you believe in that you will be, modified. So if that is going to be the next life, change it now, completely change, change with great passion, let the mind strip itself of everything, of every conditioning, every knowledge, everything we think is right, empty it.
所以我们的悲伤被这种自怜和恐惧沾染。于是当有这种恐惧、自怜、不确定感存在时，人自然会莫名其妙地接受各种形式的信仰。你知道整个亚洲都相信转世。你知道那是什么意思吗？来世重生。现在，当你探询这个问题，即将在来世重生的是什么，你会遇到困难。那是什么？你自己吗？你是什么？一大堆词语，一大堆观点，执着于你的家具、你的鞋子、你的观点、你的制约，这一切将在下一世重生，你称之为灵魂。而重生也意味着你今天是什么样，来世你还会是那样，所以恰当地行为。你明白吗？ 恰当地行为，不是明天，而是今天，因为你今天如何，将在来世为此付出代价。今天就重生，新生，而不是来世。而那些相信这件事情的人完全不在乎行动，那只是一个信仰而已，那毫无价值，因为你今天做什么，你今天如何，你的行为，你的局限，你实际上是什么样子，而不是你认为你应该如何——如果你相信那些你就会被改变。所以如果有来世的话，现在就改变，彻底转变，以巨大的热情改变，让心灵将自己从一切中剥离出来，剥掉所有局限、所有知识，剥掉我们认为正确的一切，清空它。
（SAANEN 6TH PUBLIC TALK 28TH JULY 1970） 读过，剥掉了以前的一些误解，增加了对真实的了解。
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