THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'RELATIONSHIP'/《转变的紧迫性》之“关系”
THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'RELATIONSHIP'《转变的紧迫性》之“关系”
Questioner: I have come a long way to see you. Although I am married and have children I have been away from them, wandering, meditating, as a mendicant. I have puzzled greatly over this very complicated problem of relationship. When I go into a village and they give me food, I am related to the giver, as I am related to my wife and children. In another village when somebody gives me clothes I am related to the whole factory that produced them. I am related to the earth on which I walk, to the tree under which I take shelter, to everything. And yet I am alone, isolated. When I am with my wife, I am separate even during sex - it is an act of separation. When I go into a temple it is still the worshipper being related to the thing he worships: separation again. So in all relationships, as I see it, there is this separation, duality, and behind or through it, or around it, there is a peculiar sense of unity. When I see the beggar it hurts me, for I am like him and I feel as he feels - lonely, desperate, sick, hungry. I feel for him, and with him, for his meaningless existence. Some rich man comes along in his big motor car and gives me a lift, but I feel uncomfortable in his company, yet at the same time I feel for him and am related to him. So I have meditated upon this strange phenomenon of relationship. Can we on this lovely morning, overlooking this deep valley, talk over together this question?
发问者：我走了很长的路来见你。尽管我结婚了，有了孩子，但是我一直远离他们，像一个托钵僧一样流浪，冥想。对于关系这个非常复杂的问题，我感到极其困惑。当我进到一个村子里，他们给我食物，我和施与者有了某种关系，就像我与我的妻子和孩子有关系一样。在另一个村子里，有人给衣服，我就与生产衣服的整个工厂有了关系。我与我行走于其上的土地有关，与我在其下遮荫的树木有关，与所有东西都有关系。然而，我还是那么孤独，隔绝。当我和我妻子在一起时，即使在性中我也是分离的-这是种分离的行为。当我去到寺庙里，还有膜拜者与他所膜拜的东西有关系：这又是分离。所以在所有的关系中，如我所见，都有这种分离，二元性，而在其后或其中或周围，有一种特别的一体感。当我看到乞丐，那让我心痛，因为我和他很像，我感觉到他的感受-孤独，分离，疾病，饥饿。我对他毫无意义的存在与他感同身受，与他在一起。有富人坐着大汽车过来，载我一程，但是有他的陪伴我感觉不舒服，但是同时我也能感觉到他，我与他有关系。所以我对这奇怪的关系现象进行冥想。我们能不能在这个可爱的早晨，眺望这幽深的山谷，一起来谈谈这个问题？
Krishnamurti: Is all relationship out of this isolation? Can there be relationship as long as there is any separateness, division? Can there be relationship if there is no contact, not only physical but at every level of our being, with another? One may hold the hand of another and yet be miles away, wrapped in one's own thoughts and problems. One may be in a group and yet be painfully alone. So one asks: can there be any kind of relationship with the tree, the flower, the human being, or with the skies and the lovely sunset, when the mind in its activities is isolating itself? And can there be any contact ever, with anything at all, even when the mind is not isolating itself?
克：所有的关系都出于这种分离吗？只要有任何分离，分别，还可能有关系吗？如果不只是在身体上，而且在我们生命的每个层面上，和另一个人没有联结，可能有关系存在吗？一个人也许能牵着另一个人的手但同时相隔数英里之遥，包裹在他自己的思绪和问题中。一个人也许在一个团体中，但是痛苦地孤独着。所以有人会问：当头脑在它自己的活动中隔绝自己，那么它与树，与花，与人类，或者与天空和可爱的落日有任何关系吗？即使头脑不隔绝自己，它与任何东西究竟可曾有任何联结？
Questioner: Everything and everybody has its own existence. Everything and everybody is shrouded in its own existence. I can never penetrate this enclosure of another's being. However much I love someone, his existence is separate from mine. I can perhaps touch him from the outside, mentally or physically, but his existence is his own, and mine is for ever on the outside of it. Similarly he cannot reach me. Must we always remain two separate entities, each in his own world, with his own limitations, within the prison of his own consciousness?
发问者：每件事物和每个人都有自己的存在形式。每件事物和每个人都被其自身的存在形式遮蔽了。我永远无法穿透另一个存在者的这种包裹。不管我多么爱一个人，他的存在与我的存在是分离的。我也许能在心理上或者身体上从外在接触到他，但是他的存在是他自己的，我的存在永远都在其外。同样他也够不到我。我们必须始终作为两个分离的实体存在吗，每个人在他自己的世界里，带着他自己的局限，在他自己意识的牢笼里？
Krishnamurti: Each lives within his own tissue, you in yours, he in his. And is there any possibility, ever, of breaking through this tissue? Is this tissue - this shroud, this envelope - the word? Is it made up of your concern with yourself and his with himself, your desires opposed to his? Is this capsule the past? It is all of this, isn't it? It isn't one particular thing but a whole bundle which the mind carries about. You have your burden, another has his. Can these burdens ever be dropped so that the mind meets the mind, the heart meets the heart? That is really the question, isn't it?
克：每个生命在他自己的躯壳里，你在你的躯壳里，他在他的躯壳里。而究竟有没有任何可能穿透这躯壳？这躯壳——这包裹，这皮囊——是这词语吗？它是不是由你对你自己的关注、他对他自己的关心，以及你与他相悖的欲望，这些东西构成的？你有你的负担，另一个人有他的。这些负担到底能不能放下，这样就能头脑联结头脑，心灵沟通心灵？这是真正的问题，不是吗？
Questioner: Even if all these burdens are dropped, if that were possible, even then he remains in his skin with his thoughts, and I in mine with my thoughts. Sometimes the gap is narrow, sometimes it is wide, but we are always two separate islands. The gap seems to be widest when we care most about it and try to bridge it.
发问者：即使所有这些负担都放下了，如果可能的话，即使那时他还是留在自己的皮囊里，带着他的思想，我带着我的思想留在我的躯壳里。这隔阂有时候窄些，有时候宽些，但是我们始终是两个分离的岛屿。当我们极其在意这一点，想要在其中搭建桥梁的时候，这隔阂反而显得最宽。
Krishnamurti: You can identify yourself with that villager or with that flaming bougainvillaea - which is a mental trick to pretend unity. Identification with something is one of the most hypocritical states - to identify oneself with a nation, with a belief and yet remain alone is a favourite trick to cheat loneliness. Or you identify yourself so completely with your belief that you are that belief, and this is a neurotic state. Now let's put away this urge to be identified with a person or an idea or a thing. That way there is no harmony, unity or love. So our next question is: can you tear through the envelope so that there is no more envelope? Then only would there be a possibility of total contact. How is one to tear through the envelope? The "how" doesn't mean a method, but rather an enquiry which might open the door.
克：你能把自己和那个村民或者那盛放的九重葛花认同在一起——这只是一个假装一体的心理伎俩。与某物相认同是最深的催眠状态之一——把自己与一个国家，与一个信念认同起来，而又保持独立，这是人们最爱用的一个欺骗孤独的伎俩。或者你把自己完全认同于你的信仰，以致于你就是那个信仰，而这是一种神经质状态。现在让我们把这种想要和一个人或者一个观念或者一件东西相认同的渴望放在一边。要是那样就没有和谐，没有一体或者爱。所以我们下一个问题是：你能不能撕开这躯壳，然后就再没有包裹了？只有这时，才有完全联结的可能。人要怎样穿破那包裹？“怎样”并不意味着方法，而是指也许会打开那扇门的一种质询。
Questioner: Yes, no other contact can be called relationship at all, though we say it is.
发问者：是的，根本没有其他的联结可以被称为关系，尽管我们说那是关系。
Krishnamurti: Do we tear the envelope bit by bit or cut through it immediately? If we tear it bit by bit, which is what analysts sometimes claim to do, the job is never done. It is not through time that you can break down this separation.
克：我们是一点点地撕开这包裹还是立即穿透它？如果我们一点点地撕开，也就是分析师们有时候声称要做的，那这个工作就永远做不完了。你不能通过时间来打破这种分离。
Questioner: Can I enter into the envelope of another? And isn't his envelope his very existence, his heartbeats and his blood, his feelings and his memories?
发问者：我能进入另一个人的包裹吗？他的包裹不就是他本身的存在吗，他的心跳和他的血液，他的感情和他的记忆？
Krishnamurti: Are you not the very envelope itself?
克：你不就是那包裹本身吗？
Questioner: Yes.
发问者：是的。
Krishnamurti: The very movement to tear through the other envelope, or extend outside of your own, is the very affirmation and the action of your own envelope: you are the envelope. So you are the observer of the envelope, and you are also the envelope itself. In this case you are the observer and the observed: so is he, and that's how we remain. And you try to reach him and he tries to reach you. Is this possible? You are the island surrounded by seas, and he is also the island surrounded by seas. You see that you are both the island and the sea; there is no division between them; you are the entire earth with the sea. Therefore there is no division as the island and the sea. The other person doesn't see this. He is the island surrounded by sea; he tries to reach you, or, if you are foolish enough, you may try to reach him. Is that possible? How can there be a contact between a man who is free and another who is bound? Since you are the observer and the observed, you are the whole movement of the earth and the sea. But the other, who doesn't understand this, is still the island surrounded by water. He tries to reach you and is everlastingly failing because he maintains his insularity. It is only when he leaves it and is, like you, open to the movement of the skies, the earth, and the sea, that there can be contact. The one who sees that the barrier is himself can no longer have a barrier. Therefore he, in himself, is not separate at all. The other has not seen that the barrier is himself and so maintains the belief in his separateness. How can this man reach the other? It is not possible.
克：去撕破另一个包裹，或者想延伸到你自己的包裹之外，这种行为本身正是你自身包裹的行为以及对其的肯定：你就是那包裹。所以你是那包裹的观察者，同时你又是那包裹本身。在这种情况下，你既是观察者又是被观察者：他也一样，我们就是这样保持原样的。而你想够到他，他也试图够到你。这可能吗？你是被海水包围的岛屿，他也是被海水包围的岛屿。你看到你既是岛屿也是海水；它们之间没有分离；你是拥有海洋的整个大地。因此没有岛屿和海水的划分。而另一个人没有看到这点。他是被海水包围的岛屿；他试图够到你，或者，如果你够蠢的话，你也许会努力去够到他。这可能吗？一个自由的人和一个被束缚的人之间怎么可能有联结呢？既然你同时是观察者和被观察者，你就是大地和海洋的整体运动。但是另一个人，他不明白这点，他还是那个被水包围的岛屿。他努力够到你，但永远都会失败，因为他保持着他的孤立。只有当他离开孤立状态，像你一样，向天空，大地，海洋的运动敞开怀抱，才可能有联结。看到障碍就是他自己的人，就不会再有障碍了。因此，他本身完全不是分离的。另一个人没有看到障碍就是他自己，所以保持着对他的分离状态的信念。这个人怎么可能够到另一个人？不可能。
* * *
Questioner: If we may I should like to continue from where we left off yesterday. You were saying that the mind is the maker of the envelope around itself, and that this envelope is the mind. I really don't understand this. Intellectually I can agree, but the nature of perception eludes me. I should like very much to understand it - not verbally but actually feel it - so that there is no conflict in my life.
发问者：如果可以，我希望我们从昨天停下来的地方继续探讨。你说过头脑是它自身包裹的制造者，而这个包裹就是头脑。我真的不理解这点。从智识上我能同意，但是我没有抓住那见解的本质。我非常想理解它——不是从字面上，而是真正地感受到它——那样我的生活里就没有冲突了。
Krishnamurti: There is the space between what the mind calls the envelope which it has made, and itself. There is the space between the ideal and the action. In these different fragmentations of space between the observer and the observed, or between different things it observes, is all conflict and struggle, and all the problems of life. There is the separation between this envelope around me and the envelope around another. In that space is all our existence, all our relationship and battle.
克：头脑自己制造的所谓包裹，与头脑本身之间，有一种距离。在理想和行动之间有种距离。在观察者和被观察者，或者它观察的不同事物之间，在这些支离破碎的不同空间里，满是冲突和挣扎，以及生活的所有问题。在我的包裹和别人的包裹之间，有着分离。我们的所有存在，我们的所有关系和争斗，都在这个空间里。
Questioner: When you talk of the division between the observer and the observed do you mean these fragmentations of space in our thinking and in our daily actions?
发问者：当你谈到观察者和被观察者之间的分裂，你的意思是不是指我们的思维和日常行为中的这些支离破碎的空间？
Krishnamurti: What is this space? There is space between you and your envelope, the space between him and his envelope, and there is the space between the two envelopes. These spaces all appear to the observer. What are these spaces made of? How do they come into being? What is the quality and the nature of these divided spaces? If we could remove these fragmentary spaces what would happen?
克：这空间这距离是什么？你和你的包裹之间有距离，他和他的包裹之间有距离，两个包裹之间也有距离。这些空间这些距离观察者都看到了。这些距离是什么组成的？它们是怎么形成的？这些分割的空间的品质和本质是什么？如果我们能去除这些支离破碎的空间，那会发生什么？
Questioner: There would then be true contact on all levels of one's being.
发问者：那样一个人存在的所有层面都会有真正的联结。
Krishnamurti: Is that all?
克：就这些吗？
Questioner: There would be no more conflict, for all conflict is relationship across these spaces.
发问者：就不再有冲突，因为所有的冲突都是跨过这些距离的关系。
Krishnamurti: Is that all? When this space actually disappears - not verbally or intellectually - but actually disappears - there is complete harmony, unity, between you and him, between you and another. In this harmony you and he cease and there is only this vast space which can never be broken up. The small structure of the mind comes to an end, for the mind is fragmentation.
克：这就是所有的了吗？当这个距离真的消失了——不是字面上的或者智识上的——而是真的消失了——你和他之间，你和另一个人之间，就会有完全的和谐，一体。在这种和谐中，你和他都消失了，只有这种永远不会被打破的广阔空间。头脑的狭小结构结束了，因为头脑就是支离破碎的。
Questioner: I really can't understand this at all, though I have a deep feeling within me that it is so. I can see that when there is love this actually takes place, but I don't know that love. It's not with me all the time. It is not in my heart. I see it only as if through a misty glass. I can't honestly grasp it with all my being. Could we, as you suggested, consider what these spaces are made of, how they come into being?
发问者：我真的完全不明白这点，尽管我内心深深地感觉到就是这么回事。我能看到当有爱的时候，这些就会真的发生，但是我不知道那种爱。我一直没有这种爱。它不在我心里。我好像只能透过一片毛玻璃看到它。老实说我无法用我的整个存在把握住它。正如你所建议的，我们能不能思考一下这些空间距离是由什么组成的，它们是怎么形成的？
Krishnamurti: Let's be quite sure that we both understand the same thing when we use the word space. There is the physical space between people and things, and there is the psychological space between people and things. Then there is also the space between the idea and the actual. So all this, the physical and psychological, is space, more or less limited and defined. We are not now talking of the physical space. We are talking of the psychological space between people and the psychological space in the human being himself, in his thoughts and activities. How does this space come about? Is it fictitious, illusory, or is it real? Feel it, be aware of it, make sure you haven't just got a mental image of it, bear in mind that the description is never the thing. Be quite sure that you know what we are talking about. Be quite aware that this limited space, this division, exists in you: don't move from there if you don't understand. Now how does this space come about?
克：让我们非常明确一点，我们用空间距离这个词的时候，理解的都是同一个意思。人们和事物之间有物理距离，人们和事物之间也有心理距离。而观念和现实之间也有距离。那么所有这些物理上的和心理上的距离，或多或少都是有限的确定的。我们谈的不是物理距离。我们谈的是人们之间的心理距离，一个人本身内在的，他的思想和行为中的心理距离。这种距离是怎么形成的？它是虚假的幻觉，还是真实的？感觉一下，觉察到它，确认你不是只对它有了个心理意象，请把这点记在心里，描述永非所指之物。要非常确定你知道我们在谈什么。非常清楚地知道，你身上存在着这有限的空间，这种分隔：如果你不明白，不要从那里离开。那么这空间这距离是怎么形成的？
Questioner: We see the physical space between things....
发问者：我们看到事物之间的物理距离....
Krishnamurti: Don't explain anything; just feel your way into it. We are asking how this space has come into being. Don't give an explanation or a cause, but remain with this space and feel it. Then the cause and the description will have very little meaning and no value. This space has come into being because of thought, which is the "me", the word - which is the whole division. Thought itself is this distance, this division. Thought is always breaking itself up into fragments and creating division. Thought always cuts up what it observes into fragments within space - as you and me, yours and mine, me and my thoughts, and so on. This space, which thought has created between what it observes, has become real; and it is this space that divides. Then thought tries to build a bridge over this division, thus playing a trick upon itself all the time, deceiving itself and hoping for unity.
克：不要解释任何事情；只是深入感觉一下。我们在问这距离是怎么产生的。不要给出一个解释或者原因，而是与这距离共处，感受它。然后原因和描述就会没什么意义和价值了。这距离的产生，是由于思想，也就是“我”，这个词——就是整个分隔。思想本身就是这距离，这分隔。思想总是把自己打成碎片，制造分裂。思想总是把它观察的东西切割成距离中的碎片——切割成你和我，你的和我的，我和我的思想，等等。这个距离，是思想在它观察的东西之间制造的，这距离变得真实起来；是这种距离在分割。然后思想试图在这种分割之上架起桥梁，总是这样跟自己耍个诡计，欺骗自己，希望找到合一。
Questioner: That reminds me of the old statement about thought: it is a thief disguising himself as a policeman in order to catch the thief.
发问者：这让我想起一句关于思想的老话：它是把自己伪装成警察的小偷，想要抓到这个小偷。
Krishnamurti: Don't bother to quote, sir, however ancient it is. We are considering what actually is going on. In seeing the truth of the nature of thought and its activities, thought becomes quiet. Thought being quiet, not made quiet, is there space?
克：不用费事去引用了，先生，不管它有多古老。我们考虑的是现在实际上发生着什么。看到了思想及其行为本质的真相，思想就变得安静了。思想自己安静下来，不是让它安静下来，那么是不是就有了空间？
Questioner: It is thought itself which now rushes in to answer this question.
发问者：是思想本身现在急于回答这个问题。
Krishnamurti: Exactly! Therefore we do not even ask the question. The mind now is completely harmonious, without fragmentation; the little space has ceased and there is only space. When the mind is completely quiet there is the vastness of space and silence.
克：一点都不错！所以我们甚至都不要问这个问题。头脑现在是彻底和谐了，没有分裂；那狭小的距离止息了，只剩下空间。当头脑完全安静下来，就有了无限的空间和寂静。
Questioner: So I begin to see that my relationship to another is between thought and thought; whatever I answer is the noise of thought, and realizing it, I am silent.
发问者：那我开始看到我与别人的关系只是思想和思想之间的关系；不管我怎么回答都是思想的噪音，意识到这点，我就安静了。
Krishnamurti: This silence is the benediction.
克：这种寂静就是至福。
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