THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'THE RELIGIOUS LIFE'/《转变的紧迫性》之“宗教性的生活”
THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'THE RELIGIOUS LIFE'《转变的紧迫性》之“宗教性的生活”
Questioner: I should like to know what a religious life is. I have stayed in monasteries for several months, meditated, led a disciplined life, read a great deal. I've been to various temples, churches and mosques. I've tried to lead a very simple, harmless life, trying not to hurt people or animals. This surely isn't all there is to a religious life. I've practised yoga, studied Zen and followed many religious disciples. I am, and have always been, a vegetarian. As you see, I'm getting old now, and I've lived with some of the saints in different parts of the world, but somehow I feel that all this is only the outskirts of the real thing. So I wonder if we can discuss today what to you is a religious life.
发问者：我想问问宗教性的生活是怎样的。我在修道院里待过几个月，冥想，过一种持戒的生活，读很多书。我去过各种寺庙，教堂和清真寺。我努力过一种非常简单、无害的生活，努力不去伤害人们或者动物。对于一种宗教性的生活来说，这当然不是全部。我练过瑜伽，学过禅修，遵循过很多宗教戒律。我是个素食主义者，一直都是。就像你看到的，我现在年纪越来越大，我跟世界上不同地方的一些圣人一起生活过，但是或多或少我总感觉到这只是那真实之物的外围。所以，如果我们今天能讨论这一点的话，我想知道对你来说，怎样才是一种宗教性的生活。
Krishnamurti: A sannyasi came to see me one day and he was sad. He said he had taken a vow of celibacy and left the world to become a mendicant, wandering from village to village, but his sexual desires were so imperious that one morning he decided to have his sexual organs surgically removed. For many months he was in constant pain, but somehow it healed, and after many years he fully realized what he had done. And so he came to see me and in that little room he asked me what he could do now, having mutilated himself, to become normal again - not physically, of course, but inwardly. He had done this thing because sexual activity was considered contrary to a religious life. It was considered mundane, belonging to the world of pleasure, which a real sannyasi must at all costs avoid. He said, "Here I am, feeling completely lost, deprived of my manhood. I struggled so hard against my sexual desires, trying to control them, and ultimately this terrible thing took place. Now what am I to do? I know that what I did was wrong. My energy has almost gone and I seem to be ending my life in darkness." He held my hand, and we sat silently for some time.
克：一天有个遁世者来见我，他很悲哀。他说他曾经宣誓过独身生活，并离开了俗世成为了一个托钵僧，从一个村落到一个村落地流浪，但是他的性欲是那么强烈，以致于有一天早上他决定通过手术把他的性器官切除掉。好几个月他都处于持续的痛苦中，但是不管怎样还是痊愈了，在很多年之后，他才完全意识到自己做了什么。于是他来见我，在那个小房间里，他问我他现在能怎么办，他残害了自己，要怎样才能再变得正常——当然，不是生理上的，而是内在的正常。他做了这件事，是因为性行为被认为是和宗教生活相悖的。它被认为是世俗的，属于欲乐的范畴，而这是一个真正的隐士必须不惜一切代价避免的。他说，“我成了现在这个样子，感到完全地迷失了，我的男子气被剥夺了。我与我的性欲苦苦斗争，努力去控制它们，最终发生了这件可怕的事情。现在我该怎么办？我知道我做错了。我的精力几乎都消失了，我似乎要在黑暗中结束我的生命了。”他握住我的手，我们静静地坐了一会儿。
Is this a religious life? Is the denial of pleasure or beauty a way that leads to a religious life? To deny the beauty of the skies and the hills and the human form, will that lead to a religious life? But that is what most saints and monks believe. They torture themselves in that belief. Can a tortured, twisted, distorted mind ever find what is a religious life? Yet all religions assert that the only way to reality or to God, or whatever they call it, is through this torture, this distortion. They all make the distinction between what they call a spiritual or religious life and what they call a worldly life.
这就是宗教性的生活吗？对欢愉或者美的拒绝是通向宗教生活的道路吗？拒绝天空、群山和人类形体的美，这会通向宗教性的生活吗？但是这就是多数圣人和僧人们所相信的。他们在那个信仰中折磨着自己。一个备受折磨的、变态的、扭曲的心灵能够发现什么是宗教性的生活吗？然而所有的宗教都坚称，要通向真相或者通向神，或者不管他们管它叫什么，唯一的道路就是通过这种折磨，这种扭曲。在他们所谓的灵性生活或者宗教生活，与所谓的世俗生活之间，他们都做了这种划分。
A man who lives only for pleasure, with occasional flashes of sorrow and piety, whose whole life is given to amusement and entertainment is, of course, a worldly man, although he may also be very clever, very scholarly, and fill his life with other people's thoughts or his own. And a man who has a gift and exercises it for the benefit of society, or for his own pleasure, and who achieves fame in the fulfilment of that gift, such a man, surely, is also worldly. But it is also worldly to go to church, or to the temple or the mosque, to pray, steeped in prejudice, bigotry, utterly unaware of the brutality that this implies. It is worldly to be patriotic, nationalistic, idealistic. The man who shuts himself up in a monastery - getting up at regular hours with a book in hand, reading and praying - is surely also worldly. And the man who goes out to do good works, whether he is a social reformer or a missionary, is just like the politician in his concern with the world. The division between the religious life and the world is the very essence of worldliness. The minds of all these people - monks, saints, reformers - are not very different from the minds of those who are only concerned with the things that give pleasure.
一个只为了欢愉而活的人，偶尔有些悲伤或者虔诚的火花，整个生命都付诸享受和娱乐，当然，他是个世俗的人，尽管他也许非常聪明，非常博学，用别人的思想或者自己的思想塞满他的生活。而一个有天份的人，为了社会的利益或者为了自己快乐去运用这种天份，并且因此获得了名声，这样一个人，当然也是世俗的。但是，去教堂，去寺庙或者清真寺，祈祷，沉浸于偏见、偏执之中，对其中隐含的残酷毫无察觉，这也是世俗的。爱国主义，民族主义，理想主义，都是世俗的。一个把自己关进修道院的人——固定时间起床，手里拿本书，诵读，祈祷——当然也是世俗的。而一个出去做所谓善举的人，不管他是个社会改革家还是个传教士，就跟以自己的方式关注世界的政客一样。宗教生活和世俗生活之间的划分，本身就是世俗的最核心。所有这些人的头脑——僧侣，圣人，改革者——与那些只关注能带来快乐的事情的人们，没有多少不同。
So it is important not to divide life into the worldly and the non-worldly. It is important not to make the distinction between the worldly and the so-called religious. Without the world of matter, the material world, we wouldn't be here. Without the beauty of the sky and the single tree on the hill, without that woman going by and that man riding the horse, life wouldn't be possible. We are concerned with the totality of life not a particular part of it which is considered religious in opposition to the rest. So one begins to see that a religious life is concerned with the whole and not with the particular.
所以，不把生活划分成世俗的和非世俗的，这很重要。重要的是不在世俗的和所谓宗教的生活之间进行区分。如果没有物质的世界，这个物质世界，那么我们就不会在这里。没有天空和山上那棵孤树的美，没有那个路过的女人和那个骑马的男人，生命就是不可能的。我们关心的是生命的整体，不是其中一个特定的部分，一个被认为与其他相反的所谓宗教部分。所以一个人开始看到，具有宗教情怀的生活是对整体而不是局部的关注。
Questioner: I understand what you say. We have to deal with the totality of living; we can't separate the world from the so-called spirit. So the question is: in what way can we act religiously with regard to all the things in life?
发问者：我理解你说的话。我们得面对生活的整体；我们不能把这个世界与所谓的精神世界分离开来。所以问题是：对于生活中的所有事情，我们要以何种方式来行动，宗教性地行动？
Krishnamurti: What do we mean by acting religiously? Don't you mean a way of life in which there is no division - division between the worldly and the religious, between what should be and what shouldn't be, between me and you, between like and dislike? This division is conflict. A life of conflict is not a religious life. A religious life is only possible when we deeply understand conflict. This understanding is intelligence. It is this intelligence that acts rightly. What most people call intelligence is merely deftness in some technical activity, or cunning in business or political chicanery.
克：我们说的宗教性地行动是什么意思？你难道不是说一种没有分裂的生活方式吗——没有世俗和宗教之间的划分，应该如何和不该如何之间的划分，你和我之间的划分，喜欢和不喜欢之间的划分？这种分别就是冲突。冲突的生活不是宗教性的生活。只有当我们深刻地理解了冲突，宗教性的生活才成为可能。这种了解就是智慧。是这种智慧在正确地行动。多数人们说的智慧，只是在某种灵巧的技术行为，或者在商业中的狡猾或政治伎俩。
Questioner: So my question really means how is one to live without conflict, and bring about that feeling of true sanctity which is not simply emotional piety conditioned by some religious cage - no matter how old and venerated that cage is?
发问者：所以我的问题真正的意思是，一个人要怎样没有冲突地活着，带来那种真正神圣的感觉，而不只是被某种宗教牢笼禁锢的情绪化的虔诚——不管那个牢笼有多么古老和崇高？
Krishnamurti: A man living without too much conflict in a village, or dreaming in a cave on a "sacred" hillside, is surely not living the religious life that we are talking about. To end conflict is one of the most complex things. It needs self-observation and the sensitivity of awareness of the outer as well as of the inner. Conflict can only end where there is the understanding of the contradiction in oneself. This contradiction will always exist if there is no freedom from the known, which is the past. Freedom from the past means living in the now which is not of time, in which there is only this movement of freedom, untouched by the past, by the known.
克：一个生活在村子里没有多少冲突的人，或者在一个“神圣”的山边发梦的人，过的当然不是我们正在讨论的那种宗教生活。终结冲突时最复杂的事情之一。这需要自我观察，需要对外在以及内在灵敏的觉察。只有当了解了自身的矛盾时，冲突才能终止。如果没有从已知也就是过去中解脱出来，这种矛盾就永远都会存在。从过去中解脱意味着活在现在，现在是没有时间的，其中只有这种自由的运动，没有被过去和已知损害和污染。
Questioner: What do you mean by freedom from the past?
发问者：你说的从过去中解脱出来是什么意思？
Krishnamurti: The past is all our accumulated memories. These memories act in the present and create our hopes and fears of the future. These hopes and fears are the psychological future: without them there is no future. So the present is the action of the past, and the mind is this movement of the past. The past acting in the present creates what we call the future. This response of the past is involuntary, it is not summoned or invited, it is upon us before we know it.
克：过去是我们积累的所有记忆。这些记忆现在运作着，制造出了我们对未来的希望和恐惧。这些希望和恐惧是心理上的未来：没有它们，就没有未来。所以现在是过去的运作，心智就是过去延伸到现在的这种运动。过去在现在运作着，制造出了我们所谓的未来。这种过去的反应是无意间作出的，不是被命令或者邀请的，在我们知道这点之前就已经发生在我们身上了。
Questioner: In that case, how are we going to be free of it?
发问者：这样的话，我们要怎样才能从中解脱？
Krishnamurti: To be aware of this movement without choice - because choice again is more of this same movement of the past - is to observe the past in action: such observation is not a movement of the past. To observe without the image of thought is action in which the past has ended. To observe the tree without thought is action without the past. To observe the action of the past is again action without the past. The state of seeing is more important than what is seen. To be aware of the past in that choiceless observation is not only to act differently, but to be different. In this awareness memory acts without impediment, and efficiently. To be religious is to be so choicelessly aware that there is freedom from the known even whilst the known acts wherever it has to.
克：无选择地觉知这种运动——因为选择又是同样的这种过去的运动——去观察在运作中的过去：这种观察就不再是过去的运动了。没有思想意象的观察，是过去终止了的行动。不带念头地观察那棵树，就是没有过去的行动。观察过去的运作，也是没有过去的行动。看的状态比看到了什么重要多了。在无选择的观察中觉察过去，不仅仅是在以不同的方式行动了，而且是在以不同的方式活着了。在这种觉察中，记忆没有障碍地，高效地运作着。宗教性，就是无选择地觉察，那里有从已知中的解脱，即使其间已知还在做着不得不做的事情。
Questioner: But the known, the past, still sometimes acts even when it should not; it still acts to cause conflict.
发问者：但是已知，过去，有时候还在不应该的时候运作着；它的行动还是会带来冲突。
Krishnamurti: To be aware of this is also to be in a state of inaction with regard to the past which is acting. So freedom from the known is truly the religious life. That doesn't mean to wipe out the known but to enter a different dimension altogether from which the known is observed. This action of seeing choicelessly is the action of love. The religious life is this action, and all living is this action, and the religious mind is this action. So religion, and the mind, and life, and love, are one.
克：觉察这一点，对于正在运作着的过去，也处于一种不作为的状态。所以从已知中解脱是真正宗教性的生活。无选择地看，这种行动，就是爱的行动。宗教性的生活，是这种行动，整个生活都是这种行为，宗教性的心灵就是这种行动。所以，宗教，心智，生活，和爱，是一体的。 [i=s] 本帖最后由 无名 于 2010-4-20 10:50 编辑 [/i]
“过一种戒律的生活”是否可以改成“过一种持戒的生活”
“并离开了这个世界成为了一个托钵僧，”改成“并脱离世俗生活成为了一个托钵僧”
“属于欲乐的世界”改成“属于欲乐的范畴” 标题，“宗教情怀”似不妥，“情怀”这个词更接近一般宗教徒中常见的倾向，即把宗教作为一种信仰、情感泛滥、艺术精神。
或可直译为“宗教性的生活”。 已改，再次感谢两位！
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