THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'WHAT IS'/《转变的紧迫性》之“现在如何”
THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'WHAT IS'《转变的紧迫性》之“现在如何”
Questioner: I have read a great deal of philosophy, psychology, religion and politics, all of which to a greater or lesser degree are concerned with human relationships. I have also read your books which all deal with thought and ideas, and somehow I'm fed up with it all. I have swum in an ocean of words, and wherever I go there are more words - and actions derived from those words are offered to me: advice, exhortations, promises, theories, analyses, remedies. Of course one sets all these aside - you yourself have really done so; but for most of those who have read you, or heard you, what you say is just words. There may be people for whom all this is more than words, for whom it is utterly real, but I'm talking about the rest of us. I'd like to go beyond the word, beyond the idea, and live in total relationship to all things. For after all, that is life. You have said that one has to be a teacher and a pupil to oneself. Can I live in the greatest simplicity, without principles, beliefs, and ideals? Can I live freely, knowing that I am enslaved by the world? Crises don't knock on the door before they appear: challenges of everyday life are there before you are aware of them. Knowing all this, having been involved in many of these things, chasing various phantoms, I ask myself how I can live rightly and with love, clarity and effortless joy. I'm not asking how to live, but to live: the how denies the actual living itself. The nobility of life is not practising nobility.
发问者：我读了大量的哲学、心理学、宗教和政治学，这些东西或多或少都在某种程度上关注人类的关系。我也读过你的书，都着眼于思想和观念，从某种程度上说，这些我都受够了。我游弋于语言的海洋，不管我走到哪儿，都是更多的语言——从这些语言里产生的行动被提供给我：建议，规劝，承诺，理论，分析，治疗方法。当然一个人得把这些都搁置一旁——你自己就真的这么做了；但是对于那些读过你的书或者听过你演讲的多数人来说，你所说的不过是语言而已。也许有些人，对他们来说这一切不只是语言，对他们来说这些极其真实，但是我说的是另外一些人。我想要超越文字，超越观念，生活在与所有事物完整的关系中。因为，毕竟这是生活。你说过，一个人必须同时是自己的老师和学生。我能不能生活得极其简单，没有原则、信念和理想？知道我被这个世界奴役了，我能不能自由地活着？危机在出现之前是不会来敲门的：日常生活的挑战在你觉察到它们之前，就已经在那里了。知道了这一切，身处这些事情之中，追寻各种幻象，我问自己我要如何才能正确地生活，带着爱、清晰和不费力的喜悦。我问的不是如何生活，而是生活本身：这个如何就否定了真实的生活本身。生命的高贵并不是练习高贵。
Krishnamurti: After stating all this, where are you? Do you really want to live with benediction, with love? If you do, then where is the problem?
克：说出这一切之后，你到了哪里？你真的想带着至福带着爱生活吗？如果是的，那么问题在哪里？
Questioner: I do want to, but that doesn't get me anywhere. I've wanted to live that way for years, but I can't.
发问者：我真的想这样，但是这没有把我带到任何地方。多年来我一直想要这样生活，但是我做不到。
Krishnamurti: So though you deny the ideal, the belief, the directive, you are very subtly and deviously asking the same thing which everybody asks: this is the conflict between the "what is" and the "what should be".
克：所以尽管你否定了理想、信念、指导，但是你还在很隐蔽地拐弯抹角地问所有人都问的同一件事：这就是“现在如何”与“应当如何”之间的冲突。
Questioner: Even without the "what should be", I see that the "what is" is hideous. To deceive myself into not seeing it would be much worse still.
发问者：即使没有“应当如何”，我也看到了“现在如何”是丑陋的。欺骗我自己无视这一点，那更要糟糕得多。
Krishnamurti: If you see "what is" then you see the universe, and denying "what is" is the origin of conflict. The beauty of the universe is in the "what is; and to live with "what is" without effort is virtue.
克：如果你看到了“现在如何”，那么你就看见了宇宙，否认“现在”如何，正是冲突的根源。宇宙的美就在“现在如何”中；不费力地与“现在如何”共处就是美德。
Questioner: The "what is" also includes confusion, violence, every form of human aberration. To live with that is what you call virtue. But isn't it callousness and insanity? Perfection doesn't consist simply in dropping all ideals! Life itself demands that I live it beautifully, like the eagle in the sky: to live the miracle of life with anything less than total beauty is unacceptable.
发问者：“现在如何”也包含了困惑，暴力，人类各种形式的异常行为。与现在如何共处就是你所说的美德。但是它难道不是冷酷和疯狂吗？完美并不是简简单单地存在于放下所有的理想中！生活本身要求我美丽地活着，就像天空中的鹰一样：不带着完全的美活出生命的奇迹，这是不可接受的。
Krishnamurti: Then live it! Questioner: I can't, and I don't.
克：那么就活出来！发问者：我不能，我办不到。
Krishnamurti: If you can't, then live in confusion; don't battle with it. Knowing the whole misery of it, live with it: that is "what is". And to live with it without conflict frees us from it.
克：如果你不能，那就生活在困惑中；不要与它斗争。知道它所有的痛苦所在，与它共处：这就是“现在如何”。没有冲突地与之共处就把我们从中解脱了出来。
Questioner: Are you saying that our only fault is to be self-critical?
发问者：你是说我们唯一的错就是自我批判吗？
Krishnamurti: Not at all. You are not sufficiently critical. You go only so far in your self-criticism. The very entity that criticizes must be criticized, must be examined. If the examination is comparative, examination by yardstick, then that yardstick is the ideal. If there is no yardstick at all - in other words, if there is no mind that is always comparing and measuring - you can observe the "what is", and then the "what is" is no longer the same.
克：完全不是。你的批判性还不够。你仅仅止步于你的自我批判。批判的那个实体本身必须被批判，必须被审视。如果这审视是比较性的，用标准来衡量，那么那个标准就是理想。如果完全没有标准——换句话说，如果没有那个一直在比较和衡量的头脑——你就能观察到“现在如何”，那么“现在如何”就不再依然如故了。
Questioner: I observe myself without a yardstick, and I'm still ugly.
发问者：我不用标准来观察我自己，可我还是丑陋的。
Krishnamurti: All examination means there is a yardstick. But is it possible to observe so that there is only observation, seeing, and nothing else - so that there is only perception without a perceiver?
克：所有的检验都意味着有个标准。但是否可能有这样一种观察，只有观察和看到，别的什么都没有——这样就只有觉察而没有觉察者？
Questioner: What do you mean?
发问者：你是什么意思？
Krishnamurti: There is looking. The assessment of the looking is interference, distortion in the looking: that is not looking; instead it is evaluation of looking - the two are as different as chalk and cheese. Is there a perception of yourself without distortion, only an absolute perception of yourself as you are?
Questioner: Yes.
克：存在着观察。对观察的评估是对观察的干扰和扭曲：那不是观察；相反，那是对观察的评价——这两者的区别就像粉笔和奶酪的区别。有没有一种对你自己的觉知，其中没有扭曲，只有对你自己如实而单纯的觉察？
发问者：有的。
Krishnamurti: In that perception is there ugliness?
Questioner: There is no ugliness in the perception, only in what is perceived.
克：在那种觉察中有丑陋吗？
发问者：在那种觉察中没有丑陋，只有在觉察到的东西中才有丑陋。
Krishnamurti: The way you perceive is what you are. Righteousness is in purely looking, which is attention without the distortion of measure and idea. You came to enquire how to live beautifully, with love. To look without distortion is love, and the action of that perception is the action of virtue. That clarity of perception will act all the time in living. That is living like the eagle in the sky; that is living beauty and living love.
克：你觉察的方式就是现在的你。正直在单纯的观察中，也就是在没有被衡量和观念扭曲的关注中。你来询问如何美丽地有爱地活着。不扭曲地观察就是爱，那觉察的行动就是美德的行动。觉知的清澈会一直在生活中运作。那就是像天空中的鹰一样的生活；那就是活生生的美和活生生的爱。
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