THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'ORGANISATION'/《转变的紧迫性》之“组织”
THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'ORGANISATION'《转变的紧迫性》之“组织”
Questioner: I have belonged to many organizations, religious, business and political. Obviously we must have some kind of organization; without it life couldn't continue, so I've been wondering, after listening to you, what relationship there is between freedom and organization. Where does freedom begin and organization end? What is the relationship between religious organizations and Moksha or liberation?
发问者：我曾属于很多组织，宗教的、商业的以及政治组织。显然我们必须有某些类型的组织；没有组织，生活就无法继续，所以听了你的讲话后，我一直想知道，自由和组织之间是什么关系。自由从哪里开始，组织又从哪里结束？宗教组织与解脱或者解放之间的关系是什么？
Krishnamurti: As human beings living in a very complex society, organizations are needed to communicate, to travel, to bring food, clothes and shelter, for all the business of living together whether in cities or in the country. Now this must be organized efficiently and humanely, not only for the benefit of the few but for everyone, without the divisions of nationality, race or class. This earth is ours, not yours or mine. To live happily, physically, there must be sane, rational, efficient organizations. Now there is disorder because there is division. Millions go hungry while there is vast prosperity. There are wars, conflicts and every form of brutality. Then there is the organization of belief - the organization of religions, which again breeds disunity and war. The morality which man has pursued has led to this disorder and chaos. This is the actual state of the world. And when you ask what is the relationship between organization and freedom, are you not separating freedom from everyday existence? When you separate it in this way as being something entirely different from life, isn't this, in itself, conflict and disorder? So really the question is: is it possible to live in freedom and to organize life from this freedom, in this freedom?
克：由于人类生活在一个非常复杂的社会里，需要组织来沟通，旅行，制造食物、衣服和住所，供给生活事务的方方面面，不管是在城市还是乡村。现在不仅仅是为了少数人，也是为了所有人的利益，这些事情必须高效地人道地加以组织，不划分国家、种族或者阶级。这个地球是我们的，不是你的也不是我的。在物质层面要活得快乐，必须有明智的，理性的，高效的组织。而如今存在的失序，就是因为有划分。数以百万计的人忍饥挨饿，可同时又存在着大范围的繁荣。存在着战争，冲突以及各种形式的残酷。还有信仰的组织——宗教组织，也滋生了不团结和战争。人类追求的道德导致了这些失序和混乱。这就是世界的真实状况。当你问组织和自由之间的关系是什么，你不就是把自由与每天的生存分离开了吗？当你把自由当做与生活完全不同的某种东西，把它这样分离出来时，难道这本身不就是冲突和失序吗？所以真正的问题是：是否可能生活在自由中，从这自由中，在这自由中来组织生活？
Questioner: Then there would be no problem. But the organization of life isn't made by yourself: others make it for you - the government and others send you to war or determine your job. So you cannot simply organize for yourself out of freedom. The whole point of my question is that the organization imposed on us by the government, by society, by morality, is not freedom. And if we reject it we find ourselves in the midst of a revolution, or some sociological reformation, which is a way of starting the same old cycle all over again. Inwardly and outwardly we are born into organization, which limits freedom. We either submit or revolt. We are caught in this trap. So there seems to be no question of organizing anything out of freedom.
发问者：那就没有问题了。但是生活中的组织不是你自己制造出来的：别人为你组建了出来——政府和别人把你送到战场上或者决定你的工作。所以你无法简简单单地从自由出发自己来组织。我的问题的整个重点是，由政府，由社会，由道德强加于我们的组织，不是自由。如果我们拒绝它们，我们就发现自己置身于一场革命，或者某种社会改革中了，而这只是再一次重蹈覆辙而已。不管内在还是外在，我们诞生于组织中，这限制了自由。我们要么服从要么反抗。我们被困在这个陷阱中了。所以，从自由中组织任何东西出来，这个问题似乎并不存在。
Krishnamurti: We do not realize that we have created society, this disorder, these walls; each one of us is responsible for it all. What we are, society is. Society is not different from us. If we are in conflict, avaricious, envious, fearful, we bring about such a society.
克：我们没有意识到是我们制造了这个社会，制造了这些失序，这些围墙；我们每个人都要为之负责。我们如何，社会就如何。社会与我们并无不同。如果我们处于冲突中，贪婪，嫉妒，恐惧，我们就制造出这样的一个社会。
Questioner: There is a difference between the individual and society. I am a vegetarian; society slaughters animals. I don't want to go to war; society will force me to do so. Are you telling me that this war,is my doing?
发问者：个人与社会之间是不同的。我是个素食者；社会屠杀动物。我不参战；社会却会逼迫我这么做。你难道告诉我说，这场战争是我的作为？
Krishnamurti: Yes, it's your responsibility. You have brought it about by your nationality, your greed, envy and hate. You are responsible for war as long as you have those things in your heart, as long as you belong to any nationality, creed or race. It is only those who are free of those things who can say that they have not created this society. Therefore our responsibility is to see that we change, and to help others to change, without violence and bloodshed.
克：是的，是你的责任。你是由你的国家，你的贪婪、嫉妒和仇恨培养出来的。只要你心里有这些东西，只要你属于任何国家、信条或者种族，你就要为战争负责。只有摆脱了这些东西的人，才能说他们没有创造这样一个社会。所以我们的责任是我们自己转变，并帮助别人转变，而且不通过暴力和流血。
Questioner: That means organized religion.
Krishnamurti: Certainly not. Organized religion is based on belief and authority.
发问者：那意味着组织化的宗教。
克：当然不是。组织化的宗教是基于信仰和权威的。
Questioner: Where does this get us in our original question regarding the relationship between freedom and organization? Organization is always imposed or inherited from the environment, and freedom is always from the inside, and these two clash.
发问者：我们最初的问题是关于自由和组织之间的关系的，现在这些把我们带到了哪里？组织总是外在强加的，或者从环境中继承的，而自由总是来自内在，这两者互相冲突。
Krishnamurti: Where are you going to start? You must start from freedom. Where there is freedom there is love. This freedom and love will show you when to co-operate and when not to cooperate. This is not an act of choice, because choice is the result of confusion. Love and freedom are intelligence. So what we are concerned with is not the division between organization and freedom but whether we can live in this world without division at all. It is division which denies freedom and love, not organization. When organization divides, it leads to war. Belief in any form, ideals, however noble or effective, breed division. Organized religion is the cause of division, just like nationality and powergroups. So be concerned with those things which divide, those things which bring about division between man and man, whether they be individual or collective. The family, the church, and the State bring about such division. What is important is the movement of thought which divides. Thought itself is always divisive, so all action based on an idea or an ideology is division. Thought cultivates prejudice, opinion, judgement. Man in himself, being divided, seeks freedom out of this division. Not being able to find it he hopes to integrate the various divisions, and of course this is not possible. You cannot integrate two prejudices. To live in this world in freedom means to live with love, eschewing every form of division. When there is freedom and love, then this intelligence will act in co-operation, and will also know when not to cooperate.
克：你打算从哪里开始？你必须从自由开始。有自由就有爱。这自由和爱会告诉你什么时候合作，什么时候不合作。这不是选择的行为，因为选择是困惑的结果。爱和自由就是智慧。所以我们关心的不是组织和自由之间的区分，而是我们能否完全没有分别地生活在这个世界上。是分别否定了自由和爱，而不是组织。当组织进行分别，就导致战争。任何形式的信仰、理想，不管多么高尚或者多么有效，都滋生分别。组织化的宗教是分裂的根源，就像国家和权力集团一样。所以关注这些分裂的事物，这些在人与人之间带来分别的事物，不管它们是个人的还是集体的。家庭、教会和国家制造了这些分别。重要的是分别着的思想的运动。思想本身总是分裂的，所以基于想法或者观念意识的所有行为都是分别。思想培植出偏见、观点、评判。人本身，在分别着，追求从这分别中解脱出来的自由。找不到，他就希望把各种分别整合在一起，当然这是不可能的。你无法整合两个偏见。自由地生活在这个世界上，意味着带着爱生活，避开任何形式的分别。有自由和爱，那么这种智慧就会在合作中运作，也会知道什么时候不合作。
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