THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'LOVE AND SEX'/《转变的紧迫性》之“爱与性”
THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'LOVE AND SEX'《转变的紧迫性》之“爱与性”
Questioner: I'm a married man with several children. I've lived rather a dissipated life in search of pleasure, but a fairly civilized life too, and I've made a success of it financially. But now I'm middle-aged and am feeling concerned, not only about my family but also about the way the world is going. I'm not given to brutality or violent feelings, and I have always considered that forgiveness and compassion are the most important things in life. Without these man becomes subhuman. So if I may I should like to ask you what love is. Is there really such a thing? Compassion must be part of it, but I always feel that love is something much vaster, and if we could explore it together perhaps I should then make my life into something worthwhile before it is too late. I have really come to ask this one thing - what is love?
发问者：我是个有了几个孩子的已婚男人。我曾经生活得相当放纵，追求快感，但也生活得相当文明，在财务方面我很成功。但是现在我中年了，我感觉到我不只关心我的家庭，同时也关心世界运行的方式。我并没有残忍或者暴力的感觉，我始终认为宽恕和慈悲是生活中最重要的事情。没有这些，人会变得不太人道。所以，如果可以的话，我想问问你，爱是什么。真的有这个东西吗？慈悲肯定是它的一部分，但是我总是觉得爱是广阔得多的东西，如果我们能够一起探索它的话，也许在太迟之前，我能把我的生命变得有价值。我真的是来问这件事情的——爱是什么？
Krishnamurti: Before we begin to go into this we must be very clear that the word is not the thing, the description is not the described, because any amount of explanation, however subtle and clever, will not open the heart to the immensity of love. This we must understand, and not merely stick to words: words are useful for communication, but in talking about something that is really non-verbal we must establish a communion between us, so that both of us feel and realize the same thing at the same time, with a fullness of mind and heart. Otherwise we will be playing with words. How can one approach this really very subtle thing that cannot be touched by the mind? We must go rather hesitatingly. Shall we first see what it is not, and then perhaps we may be able to see what it is? Through negation we may come upon the positive, but merely to pursue the positive leads to assumptions and conclusions which bring about division. You are asking what love is. We are saying we may come upon it when we know what it is not. Anything that brings about a division, a separation, is not love, for in that there is conflict, strife and brutality.
克：在我们开始深入这点之前，我们必须非常清楚，语言并非它所指之物，描述并非描述之物，因为任何解释，不管多么细致多么精巧，不会把心灵向无限的爱敞开。这点我们必须明白，而且不能仅仅去攀援词语：语言对沟通来说是有用的，但是在探讨某种非语言所能表达的东西时，我们之间必须建立一种交流，这样我们两个就都能同时全心全意地感受到、意识到同一种东西。否则我们就只是在玩弄词句。一个人要怎样接近这个真的十分微妙的、头脑所无法触及的东西？我们必须小心翼翼地前进。我们能不能先看看它不是什么，然后也许我们就能看到它是什么？通过否定，我们可能会遭遇那正确之物，但是单单去追求正确的，就会导致假设和结论，这会带来分裂。你在问爱是什么。我们说，当我们知道它不是什么时，也许就能遇到它。任何带来分裂、分离的事物，都不是爱，因为其中有冲突、争斗和残忍。
Questioner: What do you mean by a division, a separation that brings about strife - what do you mean by it?
Krishnamurti: Thought in its very nature is divisive. It is thought that seeks pleasure and holds it. It is thought that cultivates desire.
Questioner: Will you go into desire a bit more?
发问者：你说的会带来冲突的分裂、分离是什么意思——你这么说是什么意思？
克：思想本身的性质就是分裂的。是思想在追求并紧抓快感。是思想滋生了欲望。
发问者：你能更深入地说说欲望吗？
Krishnamurti: There is the seeing of a house, the sensation that it is lovely, then there is the desire to own it and to have pleasure from it, then there is the effort to get it. All this constitutes the centre, and this centre is the cause of division. This centre is the feeling of a "me", which is the cause of division, because this very feeling of "me" is the feeling of separation. People have called this the ego and all kinds of other names - the "lower self" as opposed to some idea of a "higher self" - but there is no need to be complicated about it; it is very simple. Where there is the centre, which is the feeling of "me", which in its activities isolates itself, there is division and resistance. And all this is the process of thought. So when you ask what is love, it is not of this centre. Love is not pleasure and pain, nor hate nor violence in any form.
克：看见一栋房子，觉得它很可爱，然后就有了想要拥有它并从中得到快乐的欲望，然后就会努力去得到它。这一切都构成了一个中心，这个中心就是分裂的原因。这个中心就是“我”的感觉，也就是分裂的原因，因为“我”的这种感觉本身就是分离感。人们称之为自我以及其他各种名称——“低我”，与某个“高我”的概念相对——但是没有必要把它搞复杂；这很简单。如果有中心，也就是“我”的感觉，它的行为就是在孤立它自己，就有了分裂和抗拒。所有这些都是思想的过程。所以当你问爱是什么，爱并不来自那个中心。爱不是快乐和痛苦，也不是任何形式的仇恨和暴力。
Questioner: Therefore in this love you speak of there can be no sex because there cannot be desire?
Krishnamurti: Don't, please, come to any conclusion. We are investigating, exploring. Any conclusion or assumption prevents further enquiry. To answer this question we have also to look at the energy of thought. Thought, as we have said, sustains pleasure by thinking about something that has been pleasurable, cultivating the image, the picture. Thought engenders pleasure. Thinking about the sexual act becomes lust, which is entirely different from the act of sex. What most people are concerned with is the passion of lust. Craving before and after sex is lust. This craving is thought. Thought is not love.
Questioner: Can there be sex without this desire of thought?
发问者：那么在你说的这种爱里，是不是就没有了性，因为没有欲望？
克：请不要得出任何结论。我们在审视，在探索。任何结论或者假设都阻止了进一步的探询。要回答这个问题，我们还必须来看看思想的能量。思想，正如我们所说的，通过思考曾经快乐的事情、培植意象和画面来维持快感。思想产生快感。想着性行为就变成了贪欲，这与性行为本身是完全不同的。大多数人关心的是欲望的激情。在性行为发生之前和之后对性的渴望是贪欲。这种渴望是思想。思想不是爱。
发问者：是否存在没有思想的这种欲望的性？
Krishnamurti: You have to find out for yourself. Sex plays an extraordinarily important part in our lives because it is perhaps the only deep, firsthand experience we have. Intellectually and emotionally we conform, imitate, follow, obey. There is pain and strife in all our relationships, except in the act of sex. This act, being so different and beautiful, we become addicted to, so it in turn becomes a bondage. The bondage is the demand for its continuation - again the action of the centre which is divisive. One is so hedged about - intellectually, in the family, in the community, through social morality, through religious sanctions - so hedged about that there is only this one relationship left in which there is freedom and intensity. Therefore we give tremendous importance to it. But if there were freedom all around then this would not be such a craving and such a problem. We make it a problem because we can't get enough of it, or because we feel guilty at having got it, or because in getting it we break the rules which society has laid down. It is the old society which calls the new society permissive because for the new society sex is a part of life. In freeing the mind from the bondage of imitation, authority, conformity and religious prescriptions, sex has its own place, but it won't be all-consuming. From this one can see that freedom is essential for love - not the freedom of revolt, not the freedom of doing what one likes nor of indulging openly or secretly one's cravings, but rather the freedom which comes in the understanding of this whole structure and nature of the centre. Then freedom is love.
克：这你得自己去发现。在我们的生活中，性是一个极其重要的部分，因为它也许是我们拥有的唯一深刻而一手的经验。在智力上，在情感上，我们遵从、模仿、追随以及服从。除了性行为，在我们所有的关系中都有痛苦和冲突。这种行为，是那么的与众不同和美好，我们变得沉溺其中，所以它就变成了一种束缚。这种束缚是渴望它能持续——这又是分裂的中心的行为。人是那么冲突不安——在智力上，在家庭里，在社团里，置身社会道德和宗教制裁之中——人是如此冲突不安，只剩下这一种关系里有自由和热情。所以我们就赋予了它极度的重要性。但是如果到处都有自由的话，那么性就不会成为如此强烈的渴望和这么巨大的问题。我们把它变成了一个问题，因为我们无法得到足够的性，或者因为我们因为得到了它而有负罪感，或者因为在得到它的过程中我们打破了社会定下的规则。旧体制的社会称新体制的社会是放纵的，因为在新社会里性是生活的一部分。把头脑从模仿、权威、遵从和宗教条规的束缚中解放出来，性就有了它自己的位置，但是它不会强烈无度。从这里你能看到自由是爱的精髓——不是反叛的自由，不是为所欲为的自由，也不是公开或者秘密地沉溺于自己的渴望中的自由，而是来自于对这个中心的整个结构和本质的了解的自由。这自由就是爱。
Questioner: So freedom is not licence?
Krishnamurti: No. Licence is bondage. Love is not hate, nor jealousy, nor ambition, nor the competitive spirit with its fear of failure. It is not the love of god nor the love of man - which again is a division. Love is not of the one or of the many. When there is love it is personal and impersonal, with and without an object. It is like the perfume of a flower; one or many can smell it: what matters is the perfume, not to whom it belongs.
发问者：那么自由不是放纵？
克：不是。放纵是束缚。爱不是恨，不是嫉妒，不是野心，也不是怀着自己对失败的恐惧的竞争精神。不是对神的爱，也不是对人的爱——那还是一种分别。爱不是对一个人的，也不是对很多人的。当有了爱，它就既是个人的也是非个人的，既有又没有一个对象。就像花朵的芬芳；一个人或者很多人都能闻到：重要的是那芬芳，而不是它属于谁。
Questioner: Where does forgiveness come in all this?
Krishnamurti: When there is love there can be no forgiveness. Forgiveness comes only after you have accumulated rancour; forgiveness is resentment. Where there is no wound there is no need for healing. It is inattention that breeds resentment and hate, and you become aware of them and then forgive. Forgiveness encourages division. When you are conscious that you are forgiving, then you are sinning. When you are conscious that you are tolerant, then you are intolerant. When you are conscious that you are silent, then there is no silence. When you deliberately set about to love, then you are violent. As long as there is an observer who says, "I am" or "I am not", love cannot be.
发问者：在所有这些中，宽恕是怎么个位置？
克：有爱就不可能有宽恕。只有在你积累了冤仇之后，才会有宽恕；宽恕是憎恨。没有伤害就不需要疗愈。是漫不经心滋生了憎恶和仇恨，你意识到了它们，然后宽恕。宽恕助长了分裂。如果你意识到自己在宽恕，那么你就是在犯罪。当你意识到你是宽容的，那么你就是心胸狭窄的。当你意识到你是寂静的，那么就没有寂静了。当你有意地出发去爱，那么你就是暴力的。只要有个观察者在说，“我如何”或者“我不如何”，就不可能有爱。
Questioner: What place has fear in love?
Krishnamurti: How can you ask such a question? Where one is, the other is not. When there is love you can do what you will.
发问者：恐惧在爱中有什么位置？
克：你怎么能问这样一个问题？有一个在，另一个就不在。如果有爱，你就能做想做的任何事情。
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