THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'CONDITIONING'/《转变的紧迫性》之“局限”
THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'CONDITIONING'《转变的紧迫性》之“局限”
Questioner: You have talked a great deal about conditioning and have said that one must be free of this bondage, otherwise one remains imprisoned always. A statement of this kind seems so outrageous and unacceptable! Most of us are very deeply conditioned and we hear this statement and throw up our hands and run away from such extravagant expression, but I have taken you seriously - for, after all, you have more or less given your life to this kind of thing, not as a hobby but with deep seriousness - and therefore I should like to discuss it with you to see how far the human being can uncondition himself. Is it really possible, and if so, what does it mean? Is it possible for me, having lived in a world of habits, traditions and the acceptance of orthodox notions in so many matters - is it possible for me really to throw off this deep-rooted conditioning? What exactly do you mean by conditioning, and what do you mean by freedom from conditioning?
发问者：关于局限，你讲了很多，你说人必须摆脱这种束缚，否则他就始终身陷囹圄。这种说法似乎太耸人听闻，太让人无法接受了！我们大部分人都深受局限，我们听到这样的主张，会举起双手，逃离这不切实际的说法，但是我对你是认真的——因为，毕竟你或多或少地把自己的生命奉献给了这样的事情，不是把它当作一个嗜好，而是以极其认真的态度——所以我想和你讨论一下这点，来看看人类能在多大程度上解放自己。这是不是真的可能，如果可能，那又意味着什么？我一直生活在习惯、传统中，在如此众多的事情上一直接受公认的观念和看法，这对我来说可能吗——我真的有可能摆脱这根深蒂固的局限吗？你说的局限究竟是什么意思，你说的从局限中解脱是什么意思？
Krishnamurti: Let us take the first question first. We are conditioned - physically, nervously, mentally - by the climate we live in and the food we eat, by the culture in which we live, by the whole of our social, religious and economic environment, by our experience, by education and by family pressures and influences. All these are the factors which condition us. Our conscious and unconscious responses to all the challenges of our environment - intellectual, emotional, outward and inward - all these are the action of conditioning. Language is conditioning; all thought is the action, the response of conditioning.
克：让我们先来谈第一个问题。我们是局限的——身体上，精神上，心理上——受限于我们所生活的气候条件和所摄入的食物，受限于我们身处其中的文化，受限于我们整个的社会、宗教和经济环境，受限于我们的经验、教育以及家庭的压力和影响。这一切都是局限我们的因素。我们有意识或者无意识地对我们环境中的所有挑战作出的反应——理智上的，情感上的，外在的和内在的——这一切都局限的行为。语言是局限；所有思想都是局限的活动和反应。
Knowing that we are conditioned we invent a divine agency which we piously hope will get us out of this mechanical state. We either postulate its existence outside or inside ourselves - as the atman, the soul, the Kingdom of Heaven which is within, and who knows what else! To these beliefs we cling desperately, not seeing that they themselves are part of the conditioning factor which they are supposed to destroy or redeem. So not being able to uncondition ourselves in this world, and not even seeing that conditioning is the problem, we think that freedom is in Heaven, in Moksha, in Nirvana. In the Christian myth of original sin and in the whole eastern doctrine of Samsara, one sees that the factor of conditioning has been felt, though rather obscurely. If it had been clearly seen, naturally these doctrines and myths would not have arisen. Nowadays the psychologists also try to get to grips with this problem, and in doing so condition us still further. Thus the religious specialists have conditioned us, the social order has conditioned us, the family which is part of it has conditioned us. All this is the past which makes up the open as well as the hidden layers of the mind. En passant it is interesting to note that the so-called individual doesn't exist at all, for his mind draws on the common reservoir of conditioning which he shares with everybody else, so the division between the community and the individual is false: there is only conditioning. This conditioning is action in all relationships - to things, people and ideas.
知道我们是局限的，我们就发明了一个神圣的媒介，虔诚地希望借此能带我们走出这机械的状态。我们假设这神圣要么存在于我们之外，要么在我们之内——内在地作为本我，灵魂，或者天界存在着，天知道还有什么！我们不顾一切地坚守这些信仰，看不到它们本身就是局限因素的一部分，而这些信仰本打算是用来打破或者摆脱这些局限因素的。所以我们无法在这个世界里解放自己，甚至都看不到局限就是问题所在，于是我们以为自由在天堂里，在轮回里，在涅磐里。在基督教关于原罪的神话中，在整个东方的轮回说里，你可以看到，这种局限的因素，已经被感觉到了，尽管这感觉相当的模糊。如果清晰地看到了局限的因素，这些学说和神话故事显然就不会产生了。现在心理学家们也试图把握这个问题，而他们的这种做法，却把我们局限得更深了。所以宗教专家们局限了我们，社会规则局限了我们，作为社会的一部分的家庭也局限了我们。这一切都是过去，构成了我们头脑显露于外和深藏于内的各个层面。顺便提一下很有趣的一件事，即所谓的个人根本不存在，因为他的头脑与其他所有人共享着共同的局限储备并从中汲取着，所以团体和个人之间的分别是虚妄的：其中只有局限。这种局限是所有关系——与事物、人们和观念的关系中的行为。
Questioner: Then what am I to do to free myself from it all? To live in this mechanical state is not living at all, and yet all action, all will, all judgements are conditioned - so there is apparently nothing I can do about conditioning which isn't conditioned! I am tied hand and foot.
发问者：那我要做什么才能把自己从中完全解脱出来？生活在这种机械的状态中根本就不是生活，而所有的行为，所有的意愿，所有的评判都是局限的——所以很显然，对于局限我无法做出任何一件不局限的事情。
Krishnamurti: The very factor of conditioning in the past, in the present and in the future, is the "me" which thinks in terms of time, the "me" which exerts itself; and now it exerts itself in the demand to be free; so the root of all conditioning,is the thought which is the "me". The "me" is the very essence of the past, the "me" is time, the "me" is sorrow - the "me" endeavours to free itself from itself, the "me" makes efforts, struggles to achieve, to deny, to become. This struggle to become is time in which there is confusion and the greed for the more and the better. The "me" seeks security and not finding it transfers the search to heaven; the very "me" that identifies itself with something greater in which it hopes to lose itself - whether that be the nation, the ideal or some god - is the factor of conditioning.
克：在过去、现在和未来中的局限因素，正是按照时间进行思考的“我”，运用着自身的“我”，而现在它想让自己自由；所以所有局限的根源，是思想，也就是“我”。“我”正是过去的核心，“我”就是时间，“我”就是悲伤——“我”努力想把自己从自己中解脱出来，是“我”在努力，在奋力去实现，去拒绝，去成为。这种想要成为的努力就是时间，其中有困惑，有想要更多和更好的贪婪。“我”寻求安全却找不到，于是把追寻转向天堂；这个“我”把自己与更伟大的某种东西认同在一起，“我”希望如此就能没了自己——不管认同的是国家、理想还是某个神——这个“我”正是局限的因素。
Questioner: You have taken everything away from me. What am I without this "me"?
Krishnamurti: If there is no "me" you are unconditioned, which means you are nothing.
Questioner: Can the "me" end without the effort of the "me"?
Krishnamurti: The effort to become something is the response, the action, of conditioning.
Questioner: How can the action of the "me" stop?
发问者：你把我的一切都拿走了。没有了这个“我”，那我是什么？
克：如果没有“我”，你就没有了局限，那就意味着你什么都不是。
发问者：没有“我”的努力，这个“我”能结束吗？
克：想要变成什么的努力，是局限的反应和活动。
发问者：“我”的活动怎样才能停止？
Krishnamurti: It can stop only if you see this whole thing, the whole business of it. If you see it in action, which is in relationship, the seeing is the ending of the "me". Not only is this seeing an action which is not conditioned but also it acts upon conditioning.
Questioner: Do you mean to say that the brain - which is the result of vast evolution with its infinite conditioning - can free itself?
克：只有当你看到了这整件事情，看清了这整个过程，它才能停止。如果你在行为中，也就是在关系中看到了这一点，这看到就是“我”的终结。这看到，不仅仅是一种没有局限的行动，而且它也作用于局限。
发问者：你的意思是不是说，大脑——也就是漫长进化及其无尽局限的产物——能够解放它自己？
Krishnamurti: The brain is the result of time; it is conditioned to protect itself physically, but when it tries to protect itself psychologically then the "me" begins, and all our misery starts. It is this effort to protect itself psychologically that is the affirmation of the "me". The brain can learn, can acquire knowledge technologically, but when it acquires knowledge psychologically then that knowledge asserts itself in relationship as the "me" with its experiences, its will and its violence. This is what brings division, conflict and sorrow to relationship.
克：大脑是时间的产物；它因为要在生理上保护自己而受限，但是如果它试图在心理上保护自己，那么“我”就产生了，我们所有的苦难就开始了。是这种想要在心理上保护自己的努力，在强化着“我”。大脑可以学习，能够获得技术上的知识，但是当它获取了心理上的知识，那知识就在关系中把自己确认为“我”，带着它所有的经验、意愿和暴力。这就给关系带来了分裂、冲突和痛苦。
Questioner: Can this brain be still and only operate when it has to work technologically - only operate when knowledge is demanded in action, as for example in learning a language, driving a car or building a house?
发问者：这个大脑能够安静下来，只在必须进行技术工作的时候才运作吗——只在行动中需要知识的时候才运作，比如学习一门语言、开车或者盖房子的时候？
Krishnamurti: The danger in this is the dividing of the brain into the psychological and the technological. This again becomes a contradiction, a conditioning, a theory. The real question is whether the brain, the whole of it, can be still, quiet, and respond efficiently only when it has to in technology or in living. So we are not concerned with the psychological or the technological; we ask only, can this whole mind be completely still and function only when it has to? We say it can and this is the understanding of what meditation is.
克：这其中的危险是，从心理上的和技术上把大脑一分为二了。这也成为了一种冲突，一种局限，一种理论。真正的问题是，大脑，整个大脑，能不能安静下来，变得寂静，只在技术上或者生活中必须的时候才有效地反应。所以我们关心的不是心理层面，也不是技术层面；我们只是在问，这整个头脑能不能完全安静，只在必要时才运作？我们说这是可能的，而这就是对冥想是什么的了解。
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Questioner: If I may I should like to continue where we left off yesterday. You may remember that I asked two questions: I asked what is conditioning and what is freedom from conditioning, and you said let us take the first question first. We hadn't time to go into the second question, so I should like to ask today, what is the state of the mind that is free from all its conditioning? After talking with you yesterday it became very clear to me how deeply and strongly I am conditioned, and I saw - at least I think I saw - an opening, a crack in this structure of conditioning. I talked the matter over with a friend and in taking certain factual instances of conditioning I saw very clearly how deeply and venomously one's actions are affected by it. As you said at the end, meditation is the emptying of the mind of all conditioning so that there is no distortion or illusion. How s one to be free of all distortion, all illusion? What is illusion?
发问者：如果可以，我想从昨天我们谈到的地方继续探讨。你可能还记得我问了两个问题：我问局限是什么，从局限中解脱出来是什么，你说让我们先来看第一个问题。我们当时没时间探讨第二个问题，所以今天我想问一下，从所有局限中解脱出来的头脑是怎样的一个状态？昨天和你谈了之后，我清晰地看到自己的局限是多么深重和牢固，我看到——至少我觉得我看到了——这局限的结构中有个缺口，有个裂缝。我和一个朋友谈了这个问题，从一些局限的实际例子中，我非常清楚地看到一个人的行为是如何深受影响和深受其害的。正如你最后所说的，冥想是清空头脑所有的局限，这样就没有了扭曲或者幻觉。一个人要怎样摆脱所有扭曲，所有幻觉？幻觉是什么？
Krishnamurti: It is so easy to deceive oneself, so easy to convince oneself of anything at all. The feeling that one must be something is the beginning of deception, and, of course, this idealistic attitude leads to various forms of hypocrisy. What makes illusion? Well, one of the factors is this constant comparison between what is and what should be, or what might be, this measurement between the good and the bad - thought trying to improve itself, the memory of pleasure, trying to get more pleasure, and so on. It is this desire for more, this dissatisfaction, which makes one accept or have faith in something, and this must inevitably lead to every form of deception and illusion. It is desire and fear, hope and despair, that project the goal, the conclusion to be experienced. Therefore this experience has no reality. All so-called religious experiences follow this pattern. The very desire for enlightenment must also breed the acceptance of authority, and this is the opposite of enlightenment. Desire, dissatisfaction, fear, pleasure, wanting more, wanting to change, all of which is measurement - this is the way of illusion.
克：自欺太容易了，让自己相信点什么真是太容易了。一个人有必须成为什么的感觉，是自欺的开始，当然，这种理想主义的态度会导致各种形式的虚伪。是什么制造了幻觉？其中一个因素是不断地比较现在如何和应当如何，或者可能如何，这种好坏之间的衡量——思想试图改善自己，快乐的回忆，想要获得更多的快乐，等等。是这种想要更多的欲望，这种不满，使人接受或者相信某事，而这必然会导致各种形式的自欺和幻觉。是欲望和恐惧，希望和绝望，在投射目标，投射想体验到的结论。所以这种体验没有真实性。所有所谓的宗教体验都遵循这种模式。对觉悟的渴望本身，也必然会滋生对权威的接受，而这是与觉悟背道而驰的。欲望，不满，恐惧，欢愉，想要更多，想要改变，所有这些都是衡量——这就是幻觉的形式。
Questioner: Do you really have no illusion at all about anything?
Krishnamurti: I am not all the time measuring myself or others. This freedom from measurement comes about when you are really living with what is - neither wishing to change it nor judging it in terms of good and bad. Living with something is not the acceptance of it: it is there whether you accept it or not. Living with something is not identifying yourself with it either.
发问者：你真的对任何事情都完全没有幻觉了吗？
克：我并没有一直在衡量自己或者别人。当你真的与现在如何共处时——既不希望改变也不用好坏来评判，那么就有了从衡量中解脱出来的自由。与某事共处，并不是接受它：不管你接受不接受，它都在那儿。与某事共处，也不是把你自己与它认同在一起。
Questioner: Can we go back to the question of what this freedom is that one really wants? This desire for freedom expresses itself in everybody, sometimes in the stupidest ways, but I think one can say that in the human heart there is always this deep longing for freedom which is never realized; there is this incessant struggle to be free. I know I am not free; I am caught in so many wants. How am I to be free, and what does it mean to be really honestly free?
发问者：我们能回到一个人真正想要的这种自由是什么这个问题上来吗？对自由的渴望，表现在每个人身上，有时候以最愚蠢的方式，但是我想可以这么说，在人类的心灵深处一直有这种对自由的强烈渴望，而这自由从未实现过；一直有这种对自由的不停追求。我知道我不自由；我困在如此之多的欲望里。我要怎样才能自由，真正的自由到底意味着什么？
Krishnamurti: Perhaps this may help us to understand it: total negation is that freedom. To negate everything we consider to be positive, to negate the total social morality, to negate all inward acceptance of authority, to negate everything one has said or concluded about reality, to negate all tradition, all teaching, all knowledge except technological knowledge, to negate all experience, to negate all the drives which stem from remembered or forgotten pleasures, to negate all fulfilment, to negate all commitments to act in a particular way, to negate all ideas, all principles, all theories. Such negation is the most positive action, therefore it is freedom.
克：或许下面的话能够帮助我们来理解这点：全然的否定就是那自由。否定我们认为正确的所有事情，否定整个社会道德，否定所有内在对权威的接受，否定人们关于真相说过的所有话和所有结论，否定所有传统，所有教诲，所有知识，除了技术知识，否定所有经验，否定所有来自记得不记得的快感的动机，否定所有的成功，否定所有按特定方式行事的承诺，否定所有观念，所有原则，所有理论。这样的否定是最积极的行动，因而就是自由。
Questioner: If I chisel away at this, bit by bit, I shall go on for ever and that itself will be my bondage. Can it all all wither away in a flash, can I negate the whole human deception, all the values and aspiration and standards, immediately? Is it really possible? Doesn't it require enormous capacity, which I lack, enormous understanding, to see all this in a flash and leave it exposed to the light, to that intelligence you have talked about? I wonder, sir, if you know what this entails. To ask me, an ordinary man with an ordinary education, to plunge into something which seems like an incredible nothingness.... Can I do it? I don't even know what it means to jump into it! It's like asking me to become all of a sudden the most beautiful, innocent, lovely human being. You see I am really frightened now, not the way I was frightened before, I am faced now with something which I know is true, and yet my utter incapacity to do it binds me. I see the beauty of this thing, to be really completely nothing, but....
发问者：如果我一点点地清除掉这些，那么我就得永远这么清除下去，这本身就变成了我的制约。这些能一下子都消失掉吗，我能立刻就否定掉整个人类的自欺，所有的价值观、渴望和标准吗？这真的可能吗？这难道不需要巨大的能力，而这正是我缺乏的，需要巨大的领悟，一下子看清这一切，把这一切曝露在阳光下，曝露在你所说的智慧之下？我想知道，先生，你是否知道这都需要些什么。让我，让一个受过普通教育的普通人，纵身跳入某种看起来不可思议的空无之中....我能做到吗？我甚至不知道那纵身一跳意味着什么！就好像你要求我突然变成一个最美，最纯真，最可爱的人一样。你看，我现在真的很害怕，不是像以前那样的害怕，我现在面对着某种我知道是真实的东西，但是我却完全没有能力做到这一点，这种无能为力牢牢捆缚着我。我看到了这件事情的美，成为真正的完全的一无所是者，但是....
Krishnamurti: You know, it is only when there is emptiness in oneself, not the emptiness of a shallow mind but the emptiness that comes with the total negation of everything one has been and should be and will be - it is only in this emptiness that there is creation; it is only in this emptiness that something new can take place. Fear is the thought of the unknown, so you are really frightened of leaving the known, the attachments, the satisfactions, the pleasurable memories, the continuity and security which give comfort. Thought is comparing this with what it thinks is emptiness. This imagination of emptiness is fear, so fear is thought. To come back to your question - can the mind negate everything it has known, the total content of its own conscious and unconscious self, which is the very essence of yourself? Can you negate yourself completely? If not, there is no freedom. Freedom is not freedom from something - that is only a reaction; freedom comes in total denial.
克：你知道，只有当一个人内在有这种空寂，不是一个肤浅的头脑的那种空虚，而是来自于对他曾是、应是和将是的一切进行全然否定的空寂——只有在这种空寂中，才有创造；只有在这种空寂中才能有崭新的东西出现。恐惧是对未知的想法，所以你非常害怕离开已知、依赖、满足、快乐的记忆以及带来舒适的连续性和安全感。思想总是拿这些与它认为的空寂进行比较。这种对空寂的想象就是恐惧，所以恐惧是思想。回到你的问题上来——头脑能不能否定它所知的一切，否定它自身意识和潜意识的全部内容，而这个内容正是你自己的核心？你能彻底否定自己吗？如果不能，就没有自由。自由不是从某事中解脱出来——那只是一种反应；自由来自全然的否定。
Questioner: But what is the good of having such freedom? You are asking me to die, aren't you?
Krishnamurti: Of course! I wonder how you are using the word "good" when you say what is the good of this freedom? Good in terms of what? The known? Freedom is the absolute good and its action is the beauty of everyday life. In this freedom alone there is living, and without it how can there be love? Everything exists and has its being in this freedom. It is everywhere and nowhere. It has no frontiers. Can you die now to everything you know and not wait for tomorrow to die? This freedom is eternity and ecstasy and love.
发问者：但是有这样的自由有什么好处？你是在让我死去，不是吗？
克：当然！你说这种自由有什么好处，我不知道你怎么会用“好处”这个词？就什么而言的好处？已知吗？自由是绝对的善，它的行动就是每日生活的美。在这种自由中才有生活，没有自由怎么可能有爱？一切都存在于这自由中，一切在这自由中都有其存身之处。它无处不在又一无所踪。它没有边界。你现在能对你知道的一切死去吗，而不是等到明天再死去？这种自由就是永恒，至乐和爱。 干净利落的结尾。
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