The real revolution 6/真正的革命6——一凡译
Q: So you think that we ought not to... 问：所以你认为我们不应该...we must find the solutions to the problems in ourselves? 我们必须从我们自己的内在找到问题的解决之道？
K: Obviously, 克：显然如此，
because you are the man who is going to suffer, 因为你就是那个会遭受苦难的人，
you are the man who is going to - exactly - 你就是那个将要- 确实如此 -
you are the person who is going to have all the problems of life. 你就是那个会遇见生命中所有问题的人。
Q: This series of talks by Krishnamurti represents 旁白：克里希那穆提这个系列的讲话展现的是
the first time that he has permitted any of his talks 他第一次允许他的讲话
or public appearances to be filmed. 或他在公共场合的出现被录影。
This program titled: 'Questioning', was filmed 这集节目叫做：“质疑”，录制于
at the Thacher School in the Ojai Valley in California. 加利福尼亚州欧亥山谷的撒切尔学校。
...as we saw him last week. ...就像我们上周见到的他那样。
I now present him to you - Mr Krishnamurti. 现在我将他- 克里希那穆提先生展现给你。
(Applause) （掌声）
K: ...all the things we talked about the other morning. 克：...那天早晨我们谈论的所有事情。
You know, 你知道，
it is really quite difficult to ask questions. 提出问题真的很困难。
And one must ask questions, right through life. 而人在一生中，必须提问。
The more we ask, 我们问的越多，
the greater the understanding 就越了解
between ourselves and our life. 我们的生活与我们自己之间的关系。
And also we should, I think, 我认为，我们也应该
in asking questions, and in replying 在提问时，以及在回答
and understanding of that question, 和理解那个问题时，
one should have a spot of scepticism. 应该留给怀疑一席之地。
One can ask questions intellectually, 从智力上，人能够提问，
argumentatively, 带着争辩性，
to sharpen one's own brains at the expense of somebody else. 以牺牲他人为代价使自己的大脑更敏锐。
So I hope you'll ask lots of questions. 所以我希望你能问很多问题。
But to ask a question, 但是要提出一个问题，
it must be the right question. 它必须是正确的问题。
A wrong question will inevitably have no answer at all. 一个错误的问题根本没有答案，这是不可避免的。
But the right question, in the very asking of it, 但是正确的问题，提出这个问题本身，
unfolds the understanding of it. 就会展现出对它的理解。
And to ask the right question 而要问出正确的问题
needs a great deal of intelligence, 需要极大的智慧，
a great sensitivity, 巨大的敏感，
and a comprehension of the immense complexity of life. 以及对生命无限复杂性的了解。
Anybody can ask a question, that's the easiest thing to do, 任何人都能提问题，那是最简单的事情，
but to ask that question 但是提出那个问题
and to go to the very end of that question, 并深入问题的尽头，
not verbally or intellectually or merely emotionally 不是从言语上或智力上或仅仅从情感上
but as a whole, 而是作为一个整体，
as a total problem and a total issue. 作为一个整体问题和一个整体议题来提问。
So I hope we can ask questions and see how far 所以我希望我们能够提问并看看
we can get together on that. 我们就此问题能够一起走多远。
Q: I'd say that there is probably great hunger in India, 问：我想说，在印度可能有很多人食不果腹，
as you said in your talk a couple of days ago, 就像几天前你在谈话中所讲的那样，
and I think I want to do something about it, 我觉得我想为此做些什么，
and so I go to India and I try to help the people 所以我去了印度并试着帮助人们，
and I try to help them overcome their hunger, 我努力帮助他们战胜饥饿，
and things of this nature. 和此类事情。
But is it really doing that much good? 但是这么做真的那么有益吗？
K: Your going or my going to India and helping a little bit 克：你去或我去印度并四处帮一点点忙，
here and there doesn't get anywhere. 这没有任何意义。
You might give food for half a dozen people. 你可能会给半打人食物。
Q: Do your best. 问：你尽力而为。
K: Do your best, but you can't... 克：你尽力而为，但是你无法...
There are 470 million people, 那里有四亿七千万人，
and doing a little bit, it doesn't 而做一点事情，那样不会
- I'm not laughing at it - it doesn't get anywhere. - 我不是在嘲笑这种做法 -这么做毫无意义。
Now, what will solve the problem? 现在，什么才能解决问题？
What will? What is the problem? 什么才能？问题是什么？
Hunger. 饥饿。
Hunger, 饥饿，
lack of clothes, shelter, all that. 缺乏衣物、住所，所有那些。
Now, how is it going to be solved? 那么，怎样才能解决？
Not by a particular nation. 无法由某个特定的国家解决。
As you and I can't solve... 因为你和我不能解决...
if we went to India we couldn't solve it, 如果我们去印度，我们解决不了，
no sovereign government is going to solve this, 没有一个主权政府能解决这个问题，
no Indian government is going to solve it. 任何一个印度政府都无法解决。
They can pretend, and they do. 他们可以假装能解决，而他们确实如此。
So, 所以，
what is preventing the solution of this problem is nationalism 阻碍解决这个问题的是国家主义
- my flag, your flag, my country, your country - - 我的旗帜、你的旗帜、我的国家、你的国家 -
and the division that takes place geographically, 以及地域上发生的分隔，
which is exploited by the politician. 而这点被政治家所利用。
That is the factor, one of the major factors, of preventing 那就是原因，主要因素之一，阻碍了
the solution of starvation, of feeding the people. 解决饥饿和填饱人们肚子的问题。
Now science has means of giving food, 现在科学确实有办法能提供给所有人
clothes and shelter practically to everybody. 以食物、衣服和住所。
It's not being done because you are a British, 但是这并没有实现，因为你是一个英国人、
I'm an Indian or Russian, 我是一个印度人或俄国人，
we have our ideology and you have your ideology, 我们有我们的意识形态而你们有你们的意识形态，
your king and my king, 你的国王和我的国王，
your army and my army - all that is preventing us. 你的军队和我的军队- 这一切都在妨碍我们。
So it's a world problem, 所以这是一个世界性的问题，
not individual or nationalistic problem. 不是个人的或国家的问题。
Q: All right. 问：对。
How do you suppose that we'll be able to overcome 你认为我们要如何才能克服
these nationalistic barriers? 这些国家主义的障碍？
K: First, one has to be free of it oneself. 克：首先，一个人自己必须从中解脱。
Q: Yes, but I don't see how... 问：是的，但是我不明白如何做到...
K: Wait, wait, wait. 克：等等，等等。
One has to be free of it oneself - 一个人自己必须从中解脱 -
neither American nor Indian nor... 既不是美国人也不是印度人也不是...
Then get up and talk, shout, 然后站起来大声疾呼，
do anything, not for the little things 做任何事，不是为那些小事，
but for the major issues. 而是为了主要问题。
Then perhaps you'll sow some seed that will take root. 然后可能你就会种下一些将会生根的种子。
That's all. 就是这样。
Now, if every human being, educated, 现在，如果每个人，受教育的、
cultured, who is really serious, 有文化的、真正认真的人，
wants to solve this problem, he will do something. 想要解决这个问题，他会去做一些事情的。
Like war. 比如战争。
We have accepted war as the way of life. 我们已经接受战争作为生活的方式。
All man has, throughout centuries. 数个世纪以来，所有的人都这么认为。
And to stop war, if one is concerned 而为了阻止战争，如果一个人关心
with the whole process of living, 生命的整个过程的话，
as a human being, then perhaps we will be able 作为人类的一员，那么也许我们就能
to solve this question of war. 解决战争这个问题。
Q: You spoke last week of man achieving a clarity of mind 问：上周你谈到人实现心智的清晰
and a broader view of life. 并更宽广地看待生命。
But it seems to me that 但对我来说
one could achieve this clarity of mind 人是能够实现这种心智的清晰的，
and a greater, deeper understanding 并对生命有更宽广更深刻的理解，
of life if you were to 只要你去
try to attack a certain part of it and then see the result, 试着质疑它的某一部分然后看看结果，
and therefore understand what happened more deeply 因而更深刻地理解发生了什么，
and increase the understanding. 并增加了解。
K: I understand. 克：我明白。
You mean there are these fragments 你的意思是存在着这些碎片
- business, religious, political, science, - 商业、宗教、政治、科学
and so on - fragments. 等等 - 碎片。
Now... 现在...
and by going through each fragment 通过审视每个碎片
you would understand the whole thing. 你会理解那整体。
Q: Yes, through participation... 问：是的，通过参与...
K: Participation in each fragment. 克：参与进每个碎片。
Q: Yes. 问：是的。
K: Now, wait, do you know what that implies? 克：现在，稍等一下，你知道那意味着什么吗？
how long would it take for each person, for every individual 对每个人、每个个体来说，要花费多久
to take each fragment and go through it, understand it? 才能参与每个碎片并审视它、了解它？
Q: To me it seems to be impossible 问：对我来说，似乎不可能
to understand it completely. 完全了解它。
K: Impossible, completely impossible. 克：不可能，完全不可能。
And therefore they say, 因此他们说，
let us put all these fragments together. 让我们把这些碎片归拢。
Which again is impossible. 这依然不可能。
You can't by a few fragments make the whole. 你不能通过几个碎片来造就整体。
So, how do you then 那么，你要怎样
understand something totally? 整体地了解事物？
First of all, let's be clear. 首先，让我们明确一点。
A fragment can never make the whole. Right? 一个碎片永远无法造就整体。对吗？
And putting the fragments together is not the whole. 将碎片归拢也不是整体。
And also... 而且...
that it is not necessary to go through all these 并不需要将这一切都经历一遍
- right? - through all the fragments. - 对吗？-审视一遍所有的碎片。
It's like saying 这就像是说
you must get drunk to understand what sobriety is. 为了解什么是清醒你必须喝醉一样。
And life is too short; you can't go through all of it. 生命太短暂了；你无法将这一切都经历一遍。
So if that is clear, then how does one 所以如果这一点清楚了，那么一个人如何能
see the whole of something, 看到事情的整体，
whole of life? 生命的整体？
Life including sorrow, death, love, family, 生命包括悲伤、死亡、爱、家庭、
politics, economics, 政治、经济、
amusement, entertainment, the misery - all that. 娱乐、消遣、苦难 - 这一切。
How do you see the whole of it? 你如何看到它的整体？
You go into it, sir, how do you see it? 深入其中，先生，你如何看到它？
How would you, if that was a question, 你会怎样，如果那是个问题，
a serious question which you have to tackle? 一个你不得不去解决的严肃问题？
Q: What if you say that you couldn't? 问：如果你说你做不到，那会怎样？
K: Wait. 克：等等。
The moment you say that you cannot or can, 在你说你不能或能的那一刻，
you're finished, 你就结束了，
you stop investigating. 你就停止了探索。
When you say, 'I can't,' 当你说：“我不能，”
you've blocked yourself. 你已经阻挡了自己。
Q: But you can understand more and more of it. 问：但是你会了解的越来越多。
K: Not by blocking yourself. 克：不是通过阻碍你自己。
Look, sir, if I say there is no God, 看，先生，如果我说没有上帝，
I've blocked myself, haven't I? 我已经阻碍了我自己，不是吗？
Or if I say there is God, I've blocked myself. 或者如果我说有上帝，我亦阻碍了我自己。
But if I say I really don't know, let's find out, 但是如果我说我真的不知道，让我们去发现，
then I've the energy to go into it. Right? 然后我就有了进入其中的能量。对吗？
Now... 现在...
so don't let's say yes or no. 所以我们不要说是或不是。
Don't let us take sides about it. 我们不要站在某一边。
Now, how would you 现在，你要怎样
see the totality of something, of life? 看到生命的、事情的整体？
You know, get a grasp, a feeling of it, 你知道，理解它、感受它、
a touch of it, a smell of it? 触摸它、嗅到它？
Q: Well as I said, by trying to take more and more of it, 问：哦，像我说的，通过试着经历得越多，
and understand more and more of it. 对其理解也就越多。
K: Ah! You have no time. 克：啊！你没有时间了。
Q: I know, that's the problem. 问：我知道，那就是问题。
K: That's the problem - of course. 克：当然 - 那就是问题。
Q: You are saying that you can't do it that way. 问：你说的是你不能以那种方式去做。
K: That's what I said at the beginning. 克：那就是我在开始时说的。
I mean, if I take time, you know... 我的意思是，如果我花时间慢慢来，你知道...
it will be impossible. 那将是不可能的。
Now, eliminate time. You follow what we are doing? 现在，摒弃时间。你明白我们正在做什么吗？
We are eliminating time - gradually get it - 我们在摒弃时间- 逐渐地达到 -
we are also eliminating fragmentary approaches 我们也在摒弃支离破碎的方法，
and also we are eliminating the idea that 我们也在消除这种想法，
when we put it all together we'll get understanding. 即当我们将所有碎片归拢，我们就会了解。
You have approached this problem with the habitual tools, 你曾用习惯的工具来着手这个问题，
and you have eliminated those tools. 而你已经摒弃了那些工具。
Not because you are prejudiced against them 不是因为你对它们有偏见
but you see that they won't answer. 而是你看到它们无法解答。
Now, when you have eliminated them 现在，当你摒弃了它们，
because they do not answer, 因为它们无法解答，
your mind is sharper, isn't it? 你的头脑就更敏锐了，不是吗？
Q: If you're on the right track. 问：如果你在正确的轨道上。
K: Of course. You have eliminated them. 克：当然。你已经摒弃了它们。
(Laughter) （笑声）
Right? Q: Right. 对吗？问：对。
K: Your mind is very sharp because it is no longer 克：你的头脑非常敏锐，因为它不再
following the traditional approach. 跟随传统的途径。
Q: But he must have some experience of the whole 问：但是他必须有对整体的经验
in order to see the whole thing. 才能看到整体。
K: Ah, no, no. 克：啊，不，不。
To see the whole thing you need a very sharp mind, 要看到整体，你需要一个非常敏锐的头脑，
very clear mind, 非常清晰的头脑，
a mind that's not biased, 一个毫无偏见的头脑，
a mind that doesn't say, 'This I like, this I don't like.' 一个不会说“这个我喜欢，这个我不喜欢。”的头脑。
Q: The mind that is in a pattern or expects to be led, 问：一个在模式中的或期望被引导的头脑，
it won't ever see the complete truth, 它永不会看到完整的真理，
but does that necessarily mean 那是否必然意味着
that the mind that is free will see the truth? 自由的头脑将看到真理？
K: If you want to see the view of that valley from the hill, 克：如果你想从山上看到那山谷的景观，
you take a survey of the whole thing, don't you? 你会一览全貌，不是吗？
That means your mind is no longer merely fixed 那意味着你的心思不再固定于
on the Thacher school, - or a particular school - 撒切尔学校，- 或特定的某个学校 -
you look at the whole valley. 你看着整个山谷。
So here is a whole complex map of life 所以这里有生命的一整幅地图
- business, all the rest of it - very complex. - 商业，等等诸如此类 -非常复杂。
And to understand the whole of that you must be free to look. 而为了理解那整体你必须能自由地看。
But you cannot look if you say, 但是你无法去看，如果你说：
'Well, it must be... “哦，它一定是...
...you can only look at it through a fragmentary approach.' ...你只能通过一种破碎的方式看着它。”
Therefore we say: 因此我们说：
free the mind from fear. 将心灵从恐惧中解脱。
As long as there is fear, 只要有恐惧，
that fear will take shelter in a belief, 那恐惧将以某种信仰为庇护，
Christian or doesn't matter what belief. 基督教或不论什么信仰。
Because fear demands comfort, 因为恐惧想要舒适、
security, hope, and all the rest of it. 安全、希望等等诸如此类。
So, being afraid of something, 所以，害怕某物，
death or something else, 死亡或其他什么，
that fear must take shelter in something. 那恐惧将以某物为庇护。
Therefore whether you believe in reincarnation or not, 因此不论你信不信转世，
or some other belief, is the same 或其他的信仰，都一样
- all beliefs are the same - 所有信仰都一样
because they are essentially born out of this fear. 因为它们必然从这恐惧中诞生。
So really the question is: 所以真正的问题是：
can fear be eliminated altogether? 能否彻底消除恐惧？
And that's why 而那就是为什么
the religions and the ancient cultures have said: 各个宗教与古老的文化都说：
believe, not knowing. 相信，就不了解。
Q: When you eliminate the fear of death in the mind, 问：当你将对死亡的恐惧从心中消除时，
one must know what death is. 你一定知道什么是死亡。
K: Ah, must you? 克：啊，一定吗？
How can you know - wait, sir - 你怎么能知道- 等等，先生 -
how can you know what death is 当心智害怕死亡时，
when the mind is afraid of death? 你怎么能知道死亡是什么？
When I'm afraid of you... 当我害怕你时...
Q: But you can't... 问：但是你不能...
get rid of your fear unless you know what it is. 摆脱你的恐惧除非你知道它是什么。
K: Wait, sir, wait. I'm afraid of you 克：等等，先生，等等。我怕你
and therefore I always take shelter, 因此我总是在找庇护，
I never look at you. Right? 我从未看过你。对吗？
I barricade myself, I invent a lot of ideas, 我阻碍了自己，我发明出很多想法，
prevent myself from looking at you. 阻止我去看你。
I can only look at you when I have no fear. 只有在没有恐惧时，我才能看着你。
And what am I afraid of? 而我害怕的是什么？
Not of death 不是死亡
but of something I have known 而是我已经知道的一些东西，
my family, my job, 我的家庭、我的工作，
my daily routine, the things I have, 我每日的例行公事，我拥有的东西，
and I'm afraid of losing them. 而我害怕失去它们。
Q: I'd like to know your thoughts on death. 问：我想知道你关于死亡的想法。
K: It's really quite 克：这真的是一个相当
a complex problem, you can't just... 复杂的问题，你不能只是...
my thought or your thought. 我的想法或你的想法。
I think 我认为
opinion has very little place 当我们直接面对生命中的事情时，
when we are faced with direct things of life. 看法没什么意义。
Most of us are guided by our personal inclination 我们中的大多数都被个人倾向
or personal idiosyncrasy, or compelled by circumstances 或者个人特质所引导，或者为环境所迫，
- which are all a very small affair - - 这些都是非常微不足道的事情 -
but a problem like death is a problem of man, 但是像死亡这样的问题确是一个人类的问题，
whether he lives in China, India, or in Russia or here 不论他生活在中国、印度、俄国还是这里，
it's a problem which man has struggled with 这是个人类为之挣扎了
through centuries upon centuries. 无数个世纪的问题。
And the Egyptians, for instance, lived... 比如说，埃及人，生活在...
for them death was much more important than living. 对他们来说死比生重要的多。
And there are whole communities right through the world, 全世界到处都有社团，
historically - and also 历史上如此 - 而且
when one has lived in a country like in India, 当人生活在一个像印度这样的国家里，
where culture is very, very ancient - 这里的文化非常非常古老 -
they've all kinds of ideas, 关于死亡他们有着各种各样的想法、
beliefs, dogmas about death. 信念和教理。
Death being... one is frightened of it, 死亡...人害怕它，
frightened of that thing called death 害怕那个叫做死亡的东西，
which is going to put an end to everything. 它将结束一切。
So they invent theories, like reincarnation. 所以他们发明了理论，比如转世。
You know something about it? 对此你知道些什么？
Either you choose that or the Christian belief, 你要么选择了那个信仰要么选择基督教的信仰，
which depends upon your conditioning. 这都取决于你的局限。
If you are a Christian, naturally brought up in a Christian world, 如果你是一个基督教徒，自然地在基督教世界中长大，
you'll accept that, the Christian dogma. 你就会接受那些，基督教教义。
Now, if one can put aside 现在，如果一个人能将它们放在一边，
the Asiatic belief and the Christian belief, 亚洲的信仰和基督教信仰，
and every form of personal hope and despair, 以及个人希望与绝望的所有形式，
then we can investigate the meaning of death. 那么我们才能探究死亡的意义。
You see, as long as there is fear, 你看，只要有恐惧，
the unknown, death, 未知、死亡，
becomes a tragic affair. 就成了一件悲剧性的事情。
I don't know if... 我不知道是否...
So, is it possible, first, to eliminate 所以，首先，是否可能
psychological fear altogether? 彻底消除心理上的恐惧？
That's quite a - I won't go into all that. 那是一件相当- 我不会深入那些内容了。
Unless that is done 除非系统地、清晰地
systematically, with clarity, 做到这点，
without any arri鑢e-pens閑, without any holding back 不带着任何事后再处理的态度，绝不从恐惧这个问题
from this problem of fear, then one can go 退缩，然后你便能
into this question of death very, very deeply. 非常非常深入地进入死亡这个问题。
But otherwise you are caught in a rationalisation, 否则你就会陷入合理化的解释中，
or in the whole of the Asian belief of reincarnation 或陷入亚洲对转世的整个信仰
or the Christian belief, 或基督教的信仰中，
or you're just... you don't care. 要么你只是...你并不在意。
But it seems to me a society or a community or a group of people 但是对我来说，一个社会、一个团体或一群人
who are not concerned with death, who don't understand, 他们若不关心、不了解死亡，
have no foothold in life. 生命中也就没有立足点。
You know what I mean? 你知道我的意思吗？
Have nothing, therefore they become terribly superficial, 什么都没有，因此，他们变得极其肤浅，
as what's happening in this country, 就像这个国家所发生的那样，
terribly mundane, physical, and no culture can stand that. 极度平庸、物质，没有一种文化能忍受那些。
Q: Do you agree that the fear of death is the fear 问：你是否同意对死亡的恐惧是害怕
of losing your possessions, the joys of life? 失去你的所有，失去生命的喜悦？
K: Partly. 克：部分如此。
Q: Well, if that is so... 问：好吧，如果是这样...
then the person who has reached the state of clarity, 那么达到了清晰状态的人
who has cast off all his fears, and fear of death, 摆脱了他的所有恐惧、对死亡的恐惧，
therefore he wouldn't... 因此他就不会...
the joys of life wouldn't mean anything to him. 生命的喜悦对他来说就毫无意义。
K: Oh! Q: Is that... 克:噢！问：那是否...
K: Now wait a minute, sir. Why not? 克：现在，请稍等一下，先生。为什么不？
How do you lose the fear of death? 你是怎样丢掉对死亡的恐惧的？
Q: By not caring about the things that you... 问：通过不再在乎你说的那些事...
K: Ah, no, no. 克：啊，不，不。
There must be much more positive action than that. 必然有比那更积极的行动。
You must die every day. 你必须每天都死去。
Die every day to the things that you call pleasure and pain, 每天对那些被你称为快乐和痛苦的事情都死去，
to the things which you have cherished - die. 对你所珍爱的那些东西- 死去。
Otherwise - look at it, sir - what are you? 否则 - 看一看，先生- 你是什么？
A bundle of memories, aren't you, 一堆记忆，不是吗？
experiences, knowledge, information. 经验、知识、信息。
And that you carry on all the day long, all the years. 你整天、整年都带着这些。
And that bundle of memories keeps the mind very dull, 而那堆记忆使得头脑非常迟钝、
stupid, it's not fresh. 愚蠢，不新鲜。
But if you say, 'Well, I'll put away all my bundles,' 但是如果你说：“哦，我将丢掉所有那些东西，”
each day, your mind is extraordinarily alert. 每天，你的头脑都将异常警觉。
Yes, sir? 对吗，先生？
Q: Sir, if you were to do this, 问：先生，如果你要这么做，
die every day and to get rid of all your fears, 每天都死去并且摆脱你所有的恐惧，
to reach this clarity of mind, 实现心智的这种清晰，
and have an extremely sharp mind, would not you then be 并拥有一个极其敏锐的头脑，那么难道你不会
completely isolated from anything, 与一切都完全隔绝，
from the world, from life? 与世界隔绝，与生命隔绝吗？
K: All right. 克：好吧。
Why should you not be isolated? What is the world? 为什么你不该被隔绝？世界是什么？
Q: Well, that's fine. I think it can be very good. 问：哦，那很好。我认为那会很好。
But then... 但是然后...
if you are going to do anything with this clarity of mind, 如果你想以这清晰的头脑做些什么，
such as change the world... 比如改变世界...
K: Then you will change it, then you will talk, write, push. 克：那么你就会改变它，那么你就会去说、去写、去推动。
But you won't belong to the messy world. 但是你不再属于这个乱糟糟的世界。
Q: But in order to change it, 问：但是为了改变它，
you do have to approach a part of it. 你确实不得不接近它的一部分。
K: Approach... 克：接近...
Again, take the whole of it, not just parts of it. 还是那样，取其整体，而不仅仅是它的一部分。
Tackle the whole issue, not just one partial issue. 应对整个问题，而非仅仅一个局部的问题。
Q: So far no one has been able to do this. 问：到目前为止没人能做到这点。
K: Then let's do it. (Laughs) 克：那我们就去做。（笑声）
Q: Sir, you said 问：先生，你说过
we have to approach everything with an open mind 我们必须以开放的心灵接近一切，
and we mustn't take any point of view, 我们不该持有任何观点，
that if we get confused we'll judge. 如果我们困惑我们才会去判断。
Well, when you approach, say, 那么，当你以一颗开放的心着手一个问题，
what is life, with an open mind, 比如，什么是生命，
you'll start, 你开始着手，
and then you'll get one fragment you won't understand, 然后你会遇到一个你不理解的碎片，
you'll question it, and then you'll become confused, 你会质疑它，然后你会变得困惑，
and then you'll... you'll have to judge. 然后你将...你将不得不判断。
How are we supposed to do this without... 我们应该怎样去做，而不...
K: First of all, there are contradictory informations 克：首先，存在着互相矛盾的信息，
one propagandist says one thing, 一个宣传者说了一件事，
another propagandist says another, 另一个宣传者说了另一件事，
the priest says something and the business man, 牧师说了些事情，而商人、
the military man and the politician, 军人和政治家也会说些事情，
everybody is contradicting the other, 每个人都与其他人矛盾，
and you and people generally 而你和人们通常是
are the recipient of all that contradiction. 所有那些矛盾的接受者。
Right? 对吗？
So what do you do? 所以，你会做什么？
Q: Sir, we have to judge. 问：先生，我们不得不去判断。
K: Ah, no. 克：啊，不。
You realise you are the result of all these contradictions. 你意识到你是所有这些矛盾的结果。
How can you judge when you're... 你如何去判断，当你是...
No, I suggest, sir, I suggest first of all, 不，我建议，先生，首先我建议，
is it possible not to be influenced at all? 是否可能根本不被影响？
Q: No,sir. K: No, don't say no. 问：不可能，先生。克：不，不要说不可能。
You see, the moment you say no 你看，在你说不可能的那一刻
you have already taken a stand. 你已经有立场了。
Is it possible not to be influenced? 是否可能不被影响？
Q: Find that out. 问：去弄清楚。
K: And that's very difficult because we are the result 克：而那非常难，因为我们是
of a thousand influences - food, climate, 一千种影响的结果- 食物、气候、
the culture in which you are born, and so on, so on. 你生于其中的文化，等等，等等。
And we are the result of this terrific pressure 而我们是这可怕的压力
and strains and influences. 以及焦虑和影响的结果。
And I am that, you are that. 我是如此，你也是如此。
And so how do you free yourself first from the influence, 所以，首先你如何将自己从影响中解脱，
from your conditioning? 从你的局限中解脱出来？
And then... 然后...
you can ask the question: 你可以问这个问题：
how am I to keep clear all the time of confusion? 我如何才能始终远离困惑？
Then it's fairly simple, you are not confused. 那么这就非常简单了，你不迷惑了。
Q: If we think that Jesus is the son of God, it limits us. 问：如果我们认为耶稣是上帝之子，这就限制了我们。
If we think that he was a man who taught wisely 如果我们认为他是个智慧地教导别人
and tried to teach people, 并努力教导人们的人，
it helps us to understand him better. 这就能帮助我们更好地理解他。
Do you think so? K: I should think so. 你这么认为吗？克：我应该这么认为。
No, to me, you see, sir, 不，对我来说，你看，先生，
that is not of very great importance. 那不是很重要。
What has great importance is not what somebody said 非常重要的不是某人说过什么
or somebody did or did not. Can I as a human being 或者某人做过或没有做过什么。作为一个人，我能否
lead a different kind of life? That's all. 过一种不同的生活？就是这些。
That is the crucial point. 这才是关键点。
Not what Buddha, Christ, all those people 而不是佛陀、基督、所有那些人
have said - may be true, may not be true. 说过什么 - 那可能是真的，也可能不是真的。
What is important, what is essential and urgent is: 重要的是，核心和紧迫的是：
can I live a different life altogether? 我能过一种完全不同的生活吗？
Q: This has been the 6th of 8 programs 旁白：这是八集节目中的第六个，
presenting Krishnamurti, 展现了克里希那穆提，
whose extraordinary approach to the fundamental questions 他以非凡的方式着手我们时代的根本问题，
of our time has attracted wide attention 已经吸引了来自欧洲、亚洲和美洲的
in Europe, Asia and America. 广泛关注。
This program was filmed at the Thacher School in California. 这集节目录制于加利福尼亚州的撒切尔学校。
(Applause) （掌声）
Q: The concluding 2 programs in this series are called: 旁白：这个系列最后的两集节目叫做：
'Living and Death' and 'The End of Conflict'. “生与死”和“冲突的止息”。
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