The real revolution 7/真正的革命7——一凡译
K: The desire to achieve is essentially 克：想要成就的欲望本质上是based on comfort, 基于舒适、
pleasure, satisfaction, gratification. 愉悦、满意和满足的。
And... 并且...
what we are going to deal with this morning 我们今天上午将要探讨的问题
does not need any kind of effort at all, 根本不需要任何形式的努力，
because effort exists only 因为努力只存在于
when there is contradiction, 有矛盾时，
contradiction within. 内在有矛盾时。
Q: The speaker is Krishnamurti, 旁白：讲话者是克里希那穆提，
whose unorthodox and challenging approach to fundamental 他以非传统与挑战性的方式
philosophical and religious questions, has made him 着手哲学和宗教的根本问题，这使他成为
one of the more stimulating and authentic voices of our time. 我们时代更激励人和更真实的声音之一。
This is the 7th of 8 programs filmed with Krishnamurti 这是八集节目中的第七个，记录了克里希那穆提
in the Ojai Valley in California, and it represents the first time 在加利福尼亚州的欧亥山谷，展现的是
that Krishnamurti has allowed his talks to be filmed. 克里希那穆提首次允许他的谈话被录制。
K: And it is these 克：正是这些
contradictory desires that bring about conflict, 互相矛盾的欲望带来了冲突，
the wanting and not wanting, 想要和不想要，
'what is' and 'what should be', “现在如何”和“应当如何”，
the 'what is' trying to conform to a pattern of 'what should be', “现在如何”试图遵循“应当如何”的模式，
and so there is always conflict. 所以总是有冲突。
And apparently that is part of our daily existence, 显然，那就是我们日常生存的一部分，
from getting up in the morning, 从早晨一起床，
going to the office, struggling, 去办公室，挣扎，
until we go back to bed, and 直到我们回到床上睡觉，而且
from the moment we are born till we die 从我们出生的那一刻直到我们死去，
there is this constant effort and battle. 这种不断的努力与战斗都存在。
And to make effort to get rid of effort, is still further effort. 而去努力摆脱努力，仍然是进一步的努力。
The things that we are going to discuss this morning, 我们今天早上将要探讨的事情，
as I said, needs no effort at all. 像我说的那样，根本不需要努力。
What it needs is 它需要的是
a total perception of the whole process of life. 对生命的整个过程的一种全然觉知。
And to perceive this whole phenomenon of life 而要觉知这生命的全貌，
one needs energy. 人需要能量。
And that energy is denied when there is this drive, 而当有想要成就某事的这种动机、这种努力时，
this effort to achieve something. 那能量就被否定了。
You know, 你知道，
it's only when the cup is empty that it can be filled. 只有当杯子空着的时候，才能往里装东西。
It's only when the mind and heart are totally empty 只有当头脑和心灵完全空掉，
then it can comprehend, then it can live. 然后它才能去理解，然后它才能活。
But to be so completely empty is not a negative phenomenon. 但是如此彻底的空掉并不是一个消极的现象。
On the contrary, it is the highest form of intelligence. 相反，它是最高形式的智慧。
It's the highest form of love, to be so completely empty 它是最高形式的爱，如此彻底地空掉
so that there is not a scratch of memory, 乃至没有丝毫记忆，
not a word, not a conclusion that distorts perception. 没有只言片语，也没有扭曲觉知的结论。
And what we are going to discuss 而今天早上我们将一起探讨
or talk over together this morning 或讨论的东西
demands a quality of mind 需要心智的一种品质，
that has no fear of any kind. 它没有任何形式的恐惧。
So one has first to understand fear. 所以人首先要了解恐惧。
Because what we are going to discuss is this problem of death, 因为我们将要探讨的是死亡这个问题，
and to understand this enormous problem 而要理解这个巨大的问题，
which has faced man from the beginning of time, 这个从时间伊始人类就面对的问题，
one has to be free of fear. 人一定要从恐惧中解脱。
There are so many forms of fear: 恐惧有如此之多的形式：
fear of darkness, fear of what somebody says, 害怕黑暗，害怕某人所说的话，
fear of being hurt, fear of insecurity, 害怕被伤害，害怕不安全，
fear of loneliness, and the ultimate fear 害怕孤独，还有终极的恐惧
which is death. 即死亡。
Fear in every form 每种形式的恐惧
is thought in action with regard to the past, 都是与过去相关的行动中的思想，
through the present and to the future. 经由现在通向未来。
'I am afraid of what will happen “我害怕将要发生的事情，
and I am afraid of something 我害怕我过去做的事情，
I have done in the past which I want to cover up.' 我想将其掩盖。”
So, 所以，
fear is the movement of time. 恐惧是时间的运动。
And it's very important, 这点非常重要，
if we would be free of fear, 如果我们能从恐惧中解脱，
to understand this movement of time, 来理解时间的这种运动，
which is essentially the process of thinking. 它本质上就是思考的过程。
The now, the actual living present, 这个现在，事实上活生生的现在，
the now, is the result of yesterday, 这个现在是昨天、
and thousand yesterdays, 数以千计的昨天的结果，
so there is no actual now. 所以没有真正的现在。
And... 并且...
fear is this movement of time, 恐惧是时间的这种运动，
which is the product of thought. 也就是思想的产物。
When I am confronted with something dangerous, 当我面对某个危险时，
immediately there is no fear. 即刻没有了恐惧。
I act - either foolishly, ignorantly - 我会行动 - 或愚蠢地、或无知地 -
but there is action. 但是有行动。
But give time, an interval, 但是如果给时间一个空隙，
then thought comes into operation. 然后思想就开始运作了。
Then I am afraid. 然后我才会害怕。
I am sure each one of us has various kinds of fears. 我确信我们中的每个人都有着各种形式的恐惧。
Take one of them, bring it out in the open and look at it. 取其一，拿出来，看一看。
And how you look at it matters immensely. 而你如何看它则事关重大。
First, do you look at it 首先，你是否在看它时
as though it was something outside of you, 就像它是你身外某物，
as something which is not you, but 好像它不是你，而是
something which is placed outside? 放置于外的东西？
So, there is the observer, 所以，存在着观察者，
and fear is something outside of you. 而恐惧是你之外的东西。
Right? 对吗？
So there is this duality, this contradiction: 所以就有这种双重性、这个矛盾：
'I am not afraid, “我不害怕，
but there is fear which I must overcome' 但是存在着我必须克服的恐惧。”
I must do something about that thing which I called fear. 我必须对那被我称为恐惧的东西做些什么。
So the observer is different from the thing observed. 于是观察者不同于所观之物。
And is there a difference? 然而真有不同吗？
There is no difference if you examine it; 如果你检验它，并没有不同；
the observer is the observed. 观者即所观之物。
That is, 也就是说，
the observer is the centre of accumulated memory, 观者是积累的记忆、
experience, knowledge, information, and so on, 经验、知识、信息等等的中心，
the censor, the observer. 是审查者、观察者。
He (or it) is aware outside of himself 他（或它）觉得自己之外
of something which he calls fear, 有某种被他称作恐惧的东西，
and he is making constant effort 而他不断地努力
to run away, or translate, or transcend, 去逃离，或诠释、或超越、
or suppress that fear. 或压抑那恐惧。
The more the tension between 观者与恐惧这个事实之间的
the observer and the fact of fear, 关系越紧张，
the greater the effort, 努力就越大，
the greater the desire to escape, 想要逃离、
to run away, to cover up. 逃跑、掩盖的欲望就越强烈。
And if you cannot run away one becomes neurotic, 如果你逃不掉，就变得神经质，
because the tension becomes so intense. 因为紧张程度变得太强烈了。
And to live in that intense darkness of fear 而生活在那强烈恐惧的黑暗中
is a state of neurosis. 是一种神经质的状态。
But as we said, 但如我们所说，
when the observer is the observed 当观者即所观之物
- not an idea, but the fact - - 不是一个想法，而是事实 -
then there is no effort at all, 那就根本没有了努力，
because then there is no contradiction. 因为没有矛盾。
I am fear 我就是恐惧，
and what can I do? 那我能做什么呢？
Please follow this. 请跟上这点。
When the observer is the observed 当观者即所观之物
- and the observer has always acted as though - 而观者总是如此行动，好像
the observed is something different from himself, 观者是不同于他自己的某物，
then he could act - 然后他才能行动 -
but when he realises that the observer is the observed, 但是当他认识到观者即所观之物，
all action ceases on his part, 他所有的行动就都止息了，
and therefore all effort, 因而所有的努力也停止了，
and therefore there is no fear at all. 因此完全没有了恐惧。
This requires a great deal of inward inquiry, 这需要大量向内的探询，
inward observation, 内在的观察，
step by step, without coming to any conclusion. 一步一步地，不作任何结论。
And, 并且，
when there is no fear, 当没有恐惧时，
because the observer is the thing 因为观者就是那个
which he has externalised as fear, which is himself, 他外化为恐惧的东西，即他自己，
then this action which was positive 然后有这个积极的行动
- that is, doing something about fear - - 也就是，对恐惧做些什么 -
then the observer is the observed, 然后观者即所观之物，
in that state there is complete inaction. 在那种状态中有的是完全的不行动。
And that complete inaction 那完全的不行动
is the highest form of action. 是最高形式的行动。
Now... 现在...
so there is no effort at all. 于是根本没有了努力。
It's only the dull mind, the mind that's committed, 只有枯燥的心智，笃信的心智，
the mind... 那心智...
that is achieving, not achieving, 想要成就，或不去成就，
that is in constant battle, struggle, effort 在不断地斗争、挣扎、努力着
- and this effort, this struggle - 而这努力、这挣扎
is considered the positive way of life. 被当作是积极的生活方式。
It is the most mischievous way of life. 那是最有害的生活方式。
Let's proceed to examine this question of what is death. 让我们继续来探索死亡是什么这个问题。
There are 3 things one has to understand: 有三件事人必须了解：
living, love, and death. 生活、爱和死亡。
They all go together, 它们都并肩而行，
you cannot separate death from love and living. 你不能将死亡从爱与生活中分离。
To us, living, as it is, is a torture, 对我们来说，像现在这样的生存，是一种折磨、
a misery, meaningless existence. 一种苦难，是毫无意义的存在。
The more clever, the more sensitive, the more 一个人越是聪明、越是敏感，
intellectually, emotionally one is alive, 在智力上和情感上就越是活跃，
it has no meaning at all. 而这根本毫无意义。
And seeing that it has no meaning 而看到它毫无意义，
we invent a meaning, 我们就发明出一种意义，
we project a meaning, 我们就投射出一种意义，
and according to that meaning try to live 并试图根据那个意义生活，
which is not living at all. 而这根本不是生活。
So one has to understand what is living. 所以人必须理解什么是生活。
And living is not this battle 而生活不是人类间的
between human beings, 这种战斗，
is not this battle of competition, 不是这场竞争的战斗，
of races, of ambition, 有关种族、有关野心
and all the rest of it 等等诸如此类的战斗
- I don't have to go into all the details of it. - 我不必深入所有那些细节了。
We all know what life is 我们都知道生活是什么
- the torture, the sorrow, - 折磨、悲伤、
the endless misery and confusion - 无尽的苦难和困惑 -
and that's what we call living. 那就是我们所谓的生活。
And love, as we know, 而爱，像我们所知道的那样，
is hedged about with jealousy, suspicion, 被嫉妒、怀疑、
aggression, violence, 侵略、暴力所包围，
and so we don't know what that is either. 所以我们同样也不知道爱是什么。
And obviously we don't know what death is, 显然我们也不知道什么是死亡，
because we are frightened of it. 因为我们害怕它。
There is much deeper fact, 还有更深层的事实、
deeper issue involved in this. 更深刻的问题牵涉其中。
That is, 那就是，
the psychological ending, the me, 心理上我的结束，
the accumulated experience as a human being, 作为一个人所积累的经验的结束，
- with all the knowledge, - 及其所有的知识、
with all the accumulated information, 积累的所有信息、
every form of memory, treasured, 各种形式的记忆，不管是珍藏的、
cherished, and despised, put away - 珍爱的还是鄙视的、丢弃的-
all that is the centre, 所有那些都是那个中心，
which is the me, the ego, the person. 也就是我，自我，那个人。
And it is that centre, the psychological centre, 就是那个中心，心理中心，
that one is afraid of losing. 人害怕失去它。
And that centre is the result of time. 而那个中心是时间的结果。
And that centre creates the space round itself, 那个中心在自己周围创造出空间，
like all centres do. 像所有的中心所做的那样。
This microphone exists in space, 这个麦克风存在于空间中，
and it creates a space round itself. 它便在自己周围创造了一个空间。
Which is fairly simple. 这相当简单。
And there is the centre as the me 而存在着作为我的中心，
which has created a space round itself. 亦在自己周围创造了一个空间。
And death, to most of us, 而死亡，对我们大多数人来说，
is the losing of that centre 是失去那个中心
- isn't it? - - 不是吗？-
the things that I have known, my family, my friends, 我所知道的事情，我的家庭、我的朋友，
all the things that I have accumulated, 我积累的所有东西，
which is the known. 也就是已知。
The centre is the known, 中心是已知，
and death is something of which I don't know at all. 而死亡是我根本不知道的事情。
And what I'm frightened of 我所害怕的是
is losing the known, not of the unknown. 失去已知，而不是未知。
And losing the known means I'm completely lonely, 失去已知意味着我完全孤独，
I'm completely alone, in a void. 我完全独自一人，处于空虚之中。
And that's what I'm afraid of. 而那就是我所害怕的。
Now, 现在，
is it possible to end that centre, each day 是否可能结束那中心，每天结束
- not having accumulated then giving it up - - 不是积累之后再抛弃 -
but to die to that centre every day, every minute? 而是每一天、每一分钟那中心都在死去？
That is, 也就是，
that centre is the accumulation of experience, 那中心是积累的经验、
knowledge, 知识，
and life is a process of experience, 而生命是一个经验的过程，
a challenge and a response. 一次挑战和一种回应。
You have an experience, 你有一次经验，
a pleasant or unpleasant experience, 一次愉快的或不愉快的经验，
dangerous or pleasurable. 危险的或愉悦的经验。
And to receive that experience 而接收那经验，
and understand it and die to it immediately, 理解它并即刻让它死去，
so that there is no memory 乃至没有记忆留下来
as a centre which retains that experience. 作为中心来保存那个经验。
We often do this, naturally. 很自然，我们经常这么做。
But to be aware so intensely, without any choice, 而如此强烈地觉察，不带任何选择，
and to be aware, so aware, 察觉，如此地觉察，
so that every experience is totally assimilated, 乃至每个经验都被完全消化、
understood and dissolved. 理解和溶化。
That requires a great deal of energy, which means attention. 那需要巨大的能量，也就是注意力。
That is, 即，
to die every day to every pleasure, to every thought, 每天对每次快乐、每个想法、
to every form of accumulation, 每种形式的积累都死去，
so that, with the dying 因此，伴随着死去
the mind is made fresh and the heart renews itself, 头脑变得新鲜，心灵也更新了自己，
so that life doesn't become a torture. 因而生命不再是一种折磨。
So, 所以，
in dying every day to everything that we know, 每天我们所知的一切都死去，
is to love. 就是爱。
Otherwise, one cannot love. 否则，人无法去爱。
Love is not something to be cultivated. 爱不是培养出来的东西。
Like humility, the moment you cultivate humility 像谦逊，在你培养谦逊的那一刻
it's a cloak of vanity. 那就是虚荣的外衣。
And it's only when you die to everything, 只有当你对一切都死去，
to every experience that you've had, 你拥有的每个经验都死去，
that you're living. 你才能活。
So living is a movement, fresh, new, innocent, 所以，生活是一种新鲜、新颖、纯真的运动，
every minute of the day, fresh. 每天的每一分钟都新鲜。
And to die to the past... 而让过去死亡...
is to live totally, altogether a different dimension. 就是完全生活在一个截然不同的维度里。
Q: If I attend to a tree in the way that you described, 问：如果我以你所描述的方式关注一棵树，
so that the observer is the observed, 乃至观者即所观之物，
the tree is still there. K: Of course, sir. 但树仍然在那儿。克：当然了，先生。
Q: If I attend to my fear in the same way, 问：如果我以相同的方式关注我的恐惧，
won't my fear also still be there? 我的恐惧不也还会在那儿吗？
K: No. You see... 克：不。你看...
First of all, 首先，
I don't want to get rid of my fear, 我不想摆脱我的恐惧，
I want to understand it. 我想去了解它。
To understand something I must care for it, 去了解某物，我必须珍视它，
I must love it, I must be careful with it. 我必须爱它，我必须小心以对。
And if I say, 'I must get rid of it', 而如果我说：“我必须除掉它”，
I've already acted most foolishly, 我已经以最愚蠢的方式行动了，
because I have to understand 因为我必须去了解
the structure and the nature of fear. 恐惧的结构和本质。
And to understand it I must look at it. 而要了解它，我必须看着它。
And I cannot look at it if I say... 而我无法看着它，如果我说...
if I want to get rid of it, or suppress it or sublimate it. 如果我想摆脱它，或压抑它或升华它。
I must actually look at it, come into contact with it. 我必须实实在在看着它，和它产生联系。
Not through a word but 不是通过一个词而是
with the fact, with what it actually is. 和事实、和实际情况共处。
How can the mind which is so crowded, 一个如此拥挤不堪、
so everlastingly chattering, 如此喋喋不休的头脑，
how can that mind be empty? 那样的头脑如何才能清空？
I'm afraid there is no way. 恐怕没有什么方法。
Any method is the most impractical way. 任何方式都是最不实际的方式。
That's why, sir, I said, 先生，那就是为什么我说，
we said at the beginning, 我们在开始时说，
what is important is to listen. 重要的是去倾听。
And to listen needs attention, care, 倾听需要注意力、关怀
a certain quality of affection in which there is communion. 和某种爱的品质，于其中就有交流。
Then you'll find, without an effort it has come into being. 然后你会发现，不需一丝努力它就已经产生了。
So you see, sir, 所以，先生，你看
we are so used to being told what to do. 我们是如此习惯于被告知该做什么。
We worship authority 我们崇拜权威
and we have lost all... 而我们已失去了所有的...
- 'capacity' isn't the word - - “能力”不是那个词 -
all intention to find things for ourselves. 我们自己去发现的所有意愿。
And this, in this, 而这点，其中，
what we are talking about, there is no teacher, 我们所探讨的事情中，没有老师，
there is no method, there is no practice. 没有方法，没有练习。
There is only perception of 'what is', 只有对“现在如何”的觉知，
and when there is that perception 当有了那觉知
then the problem is resolved. 问题就解决了。
Q: Of what significance is hope and faith to living? 问：希望和信念对生活有什么重要性？
K: What significance has hope and faith to living? 克：希望和信念对生活有什么重要性？
I hope you won't think me harsh if I say 我希望你不会认为我冷酷，如果我说
there is no significance at all. 它们根本没什么重要性。
We've had hope, we've had faith - faith in church, 我们有过希望，我们有过信念- 对教会的信念，
faith in politics, faith in leaders, faith in gurus - 对政治的信念，对领袖的信念，对古鲁的信念 -
because we wanted to achieve 因为我们想达到
a state of bliss, of happiness, and so on. 一种至福、幸福等等的状态。
And hope has nourished this faith. 而希望喂养了这种信念。
And when one observes through history, through our life, 当人通过历史、通过我们的生活进行观察时，
all that hope and faith has no meaning at all, 所有那些希望和信念都毫无意义，
because what is important is what we are. 因为重要的是我们现在如何。
Actually what we are, not what we think we are, 我们事实上如何，而不是我们认为我们如何，
or what we think we should be, but actually 'what is.' 或者我们认为我们应该如何，而是事实上的“现在如何。”
If we know how to look at 'what is', 如果我们知道如何去看“现在如何”，
that will bring about a tremendous transformation. 就会带来巨大的转化。
Q: The talks and writings of Krishnamurti 旁白：克里希那穆提的谈话和文字
place him outside of any ordinary category, 使他无法被归类为任何通常的范畴，
such as philosopher or religious leader. 比如哲学家或宗教领袖。
This has been the 7th in a series of 8 programs. 这是八集系列节目中的第七个。
The concluding program in the series is called: 这个系列的最后一集节目叫做：
'The End of Conflict.' “冲突的止息”。
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