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Malibu '70 Small Group Discussions70年马力布小组讨论 _ 4

K: Shall we go on where we left off yesterday?        克:让我们从昨天停止的地方继续,好吗?
Shall we go on where we left yesterday?        我们可以继续昨天的谈话吗?
I was wondering        我想知道
how to sustain a continuous seriousness.        怎样才能保持一种持续认真的态度。
I think if we could go into that a little bit and come back        我想我们是否可以先深入探讨一下这个问题,然后再回到
to what we were talking about.        我们昨天讨论的内容。
Is it the intellect is not serious at all?        智力是不是根本就不认真?
A fragment of our life, which is already fragmented,        我们生活的一个碎片,它本身已经是支离破碎的了,
seems to take supremacy over other fragments.        似乎想凌驾于其他碎片之上。
The one fragment is this intellectual struggle,        这一个碎片就是这种智力上的挣扎,
intellectual assertions,        智力性的主张、
theories, formulas, what should happen, what should not happen        理论、准则,什么应该发生,什么不应该发生
- you know, the whole intellectual drama.        ——你知道的,这整个智力上的闹剧。
And is the intellect really serious?        那么,智力确实是认真的吗?
Serious in the sense,        这里认真的含义是,
a sustained total comprehension,        一种持久而完整的理解,
which has nothing to do with formula,        它与准则无关,
with theory, and belief.        与理论、信仰无关。
Can the intellect, a fragment, be ever serious?        智力,作为一个碎片,究竟能够认真吗?
Serious in the sense, a continuous drive,        是这样的一种认真,一股持续的动力,
a continuous, sustained observation without any distortion.        一种不间断的、持续的不带任何扭曲的观察。
And most of us are intellectually trained        但我们大多数人都从智力上接受训练,
in a society that demands the intellectual output        来适应一个需要智力产出的社会,
rather than a total output of the human being.        而不是造就完整的人类。
I don't know if I'm conveying anything.        我不知道我是否传达了什么给你。
Could we go into that a little bit?        我们可以再深入一点吗?
Why has this happened?        为什么会发生这样的事情?
Why has a part of me...        为什么我的一部分……
has become so supreme        变得如此高高在上?
- dictating how the body should behave,        ——命令身体应该怎样行动,
what it should eat, drink, smoke, sex        它应该吃什么、喝什么、抽什么、性生活
- dictating everything,        ——掌控一切,
and dictating the morality,        并且指挥道义、
the virtue,        美德、
the social behaviour,        社会行为,
and the private behaviour at home, and so on        以及在家里的个人举止,等等
- apparently, technologically and psychologically,        ——很明显,从技术角度和心理角度,
it has become supreme. Why?        智力变得至高无上。为什么?
Why has one part of this whole structure which is the 'me,'        为什么这整个“自我”结构的一部分
why has that become important?        变得如此重要?
Q: It seems to me that part of the reason is        问:在我看来,一部分原因是
that we don't know how to use it properly.        我们不知道怎样合理地使用智力。
We don't understand what it's good for, how it works.        我们不了解它善于做什么,它怎样工作。
Q: In the society a specialty wasn't it necessary        问:在社会中难道不需要有某一项专长,
to have the intellectual development,        不需要在智力上得到发展吗,
so the technical development, so we produce the goods.        进而拥有科技进步,以便我们生产商品。
Now that we have the goods we don't need it;        既然我们有了商品,我们就不需要智力了;
what we are doing is something that isn't necessary.        我们正在做的事情反而不是必需的。
K: Are you saying, sir, that technological development,        克:你是说,先生,科技发展,
which is the intellectual activity,        作为智力活动,
has dominated the whole existence of man?        已经支配了整个人类的存在?
Q: It was necessary because there wasn't enough to go around.        问:智力是必要的,因为供应还不充足。
K: Is that the reason? Q: But we thought that.        克:这就是原因吗?问:但我们想到了这点。
K: Is that so? Q: No.        克:是这样吗?问:不。
Q: Like that's part of controlling, it's part of...        问:好像那是控制的一部分,它是……
our whole culture wants to control nature using the intellect for that        我们整个文化的一部分,文化想控制自然,并通过使用智力来实现那个目的,
and each of us tries to control ourself using the intellect for that.        并且,为此目的,我们每个人努力用智力控制我们自己。
K: Sir, watch in yourself - if I may come back to oneself -        克:先生,观察你的内心——如果可以回到每个人自身的话——
why has the intellect taken such extraordinary importance        为什么智力在你的生活中,
in your life, in one's life?        在人的生活中占如此重要的地位?
Leave society, culture, all that, out        先抛开社会、文化等诸如此类的一切
- why has it taken in one's life such vital import?        ——它为什么在人的生活中如此至关重要?
Q: Isn't it that same demand for security        问:是否同样是因为对安全的需要,
we were talking about yesterday?        就像我们昨天谈到的那样?
Q: Sir, we think our ideas are something that don't change.        问:先生,我们认为我们的想法是不变的。
K: Look into yourself, sir, look into yourself.        克:看看你的内心,先生,看看自己的内心。
Why have you given such...        为什么你给它如此……
why has it taken such importance in my life, in your life?        为什么它在我的生活中,在你的生活中如此重要?
It hasn't in me, but I'm just asking: why has it?        它在我这里并不重要,但,我只是问,它为什么重要?
Q: Our training was that.        问:我们受到的训练就是这样的。
K: If it wasn't trained, wouldn't you do exactly the same thing?        克:如果它没有被训练,难道你就不会做同样的事情吗?
Q: I'm not living in the country, I think I might...        问:我不住在这个国家里,我想我可能……
K: Ah, wait, sir, wait, sir, don't be so clear about it.        克:啊,等等,先生,等一下,先生,不要如此撇清自己。
I'm not at all sure you wouldn't.        我根本不确定你不会那样。
Q: Living on a farm, milking the cows...        问:住在农场,挤牛奶……
K: No, no. Even then there would be always,        克:不,不。即使那时也总是会有:
'My cow is better than the other cow.'        “我的奶牛比别的奶牛好。”
Q: That's comparison then.        问:那是比较。
K: Comparison - why?        克:比较——为什么比较?
Push it, sir, push it down and find out why.        深入下去,先生,推进下去,弄清楚为什么。
Why do you do this?        你为什么这样做?
You understand, sir, what is implied in this?        你知道,先生,这其中意味着什么?
The whole hierarchical outlook of life, on life        关于生活、对生活的整个层级观念
- the better, the higher, the nobler,        ——更好、更高、更高贵,
the limitation of the verb 'to be' -        “成为”这个动词的局限性——
in that which we are caught.        我们正深陷其中。
If you go into it you will see        如果你深入这个问题,你就会看到
why we have given this thing such a diabolic importance.        我们为什么赋予这种事情如此疯狂的重要性。
Q: Because I can see one reason,        问:因为,我能看到一个原因,
it's because the past and the future are so important.        是因为过去和将来是如此重要。
We've made the past and the future very important        我们将过去和未来置于非常重要的地位
- what will happen and what did happen.        ——什么将发生,和什么已经发生。
That's why we compare.        这就是我们比较的原因。
It doesn't matter right now if you have a better cow,        即使你有一头更好的奶牛,现在也不重要了,
because what the whole image presents,        因为整个影像所呈现的是,
what happened in the past and what's going to happen in the future.        过去发生的和将来要发生的事情。
Q: Sir, in order to see what you mean        问:先生,为了明白你说的意思,
when you say that we live in the intellect,        当你说,我们活在智力中,
could you perhaps say what else there is to live in?        你会不会说可能还有别的什么我们可以生活在其中?
K: Ah, no...        克:啊,不……
Q: Because if you say if we live in the intellect,        问:因为,如果你说我们是否生活在智力中,
I think that it may not be clear for us just what that means.        我认为我们可能不清楚那究竟是什么意思。
K: That means, sir - it's fairly simple -        克:那句话的意思是,先生——其实很简单——
the future, the ideal, the formula, the belief        未来、理想、规则、信仰
- the whole structure of what should be -        ——这整个“应该如何”的结构——
the utopia, the ideal, the perfect state, the perfect God,        乌托邦、理想、完美的状态、完美的上帝、
the perfect disciple, the perfect master, the perfect - you follow?        完美的纪律、完美的大师,完美的——你明白吗?
Q: The controller you were talking about.        问:你谈到过的那个控制者。
K: Yes.        克:是的。
Q: Which means we're living for something.        问:那意味着,我们为某种东西而活着。
K: Don't... See what is happening, sir, and from that you'll find out.        克:不要……看看发生着的事情,先生,从那儿你就能有所发现。
Q: Your question of why - I've seen a lot of children.        问:你问为什么——我见过很多孩子。
I've seen, experience with a lot of children        我见过、体验过跟很多孩子在一起的情形,
and children almost always compare themselves with others        孩子们几乎一直都将自己与别人比较
- they say, 'My muscles are bigger than yours,        ——他们说:“我的肌肉比你强壮,
my father is stronger than yours.'        我父亲比你父亲强壮。”
It seems to me it's a part of...        对我来说,它是……
that everybody grows up with that universally.        每个人成长环境的一部分,比较伴随着所有人的成长。
And we have to then, through understanding, work it out.        然后我们需要通过理解,来解决这个问题。
[Inaudible]        【听不清】
K: Dr Weininger, you live - if I may be a little bit...        克:威宁格博士,你生活——也许我有点……
not being personal, but...        不是针对个人,而是……
- you live in the intellect, don't you?        ——你生活在智力中,不是吗?
Q: Yes. K: Why?        问:是的。克:为什么?
Q: In what way? K: Ideation.        问:以什么方式?克:通过思维。
Q: Not so much. K: No, no, no! Not so...        问:不太多。克:不,不,不!不太……
not at all or... [laughs] you can't have a little and not so much.        根本没有或者……【笑】你不能有一点而不太多。
But let us see.        但是我们来看看。
Q: Yes.        问:好的。
K: You do live in... we do live in the... Why?        克:你确实生活在……我们确实生活在智力中……为什么?
Q: Because there's seeming security.        问:因为那里看起来有安全。
Q: But why? We really don't know why.        问:但为什么呢?我们真的不知道为什么。
K: Don't you? Q: I don't think so.        克:你不知道吗?问:我认为不知道。
K: We'll find out. We'll find out.        克:我们会弄清楚的。我们会找出答案。
Q: It seems like a lot of it is to be in touch        问:似乎其中很大一部分涉及到接触
with other people, to communicate.        其他人和交流。
K: But we're not at all in touch with other people.        克:但我们实际上与其他人根本没有接触。
Q: It has the opposite effect.        问:它具有相反的效果。
K: Quite the opposite effect - it is an isolating process.        克:正好相反的效果——它是一个隔离的过程。
I've isolated myself        我把自己隔离起来
- my image, my formula, my God, my this,        ——我的形象、我的规则、我的上帝、我的这个,
and over that I look at somebody else, but still there is the wall.        隔着那些我去看其他人,而那道墙仍然在那儿。
Q: When we answer why, it seems every time we say something        问:当我们回答为什么的时候,好像每次我们说出点什么的时候,
we're guessing in a way.        我们是在以某种方式进行猜测。
We're seeing if what we say actually meets with our experience.        我们在看我们说的与我们的经验实际上是否相符。
It doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere.        看起来我们并没有理解什么。
K: Yes, sir, watch it, sir. Look, go a little bit, sir.        克:是的,先生,观察一下,先生。看一看,深入一点,先生。
You're too verbal, if I may say so - go slow.        你太依赖语言了,请允许我这样说——慢慢来。
That means we are living in the future, aren't we?        那意味着我们生活在未来,不是吗?
The ideal, the formula, what should be, the better,        理想、规则、应该如何、更好,
is always over there. Right?        总在那儿起着作用。对吗?
Why do I live that way?        我为什么以那种方式生活?
Q: [Inaudible]        问:【听不清】
K: I live in the past and in the future - right? -        克:我生活在过去和未来——对吗?——
I live in my memories,        我生活在我的记忆中,
in my imagination, in my hopes, fears        我的想象中、我的希望中、恐惧中
- they are always the past, despair,        ——它们始终属于过去,绝望,
except hope in the future.        除了希望属于未来。
So living in the past,        所以,生活在过去,
mustn't it inevitably create a future of idealistic hope?        难倒不是必然会创造一个带理想性希望的未来吗?
I don't live now but the past and the future.        我不生活在现在,而是生活在过去和未来。
I don't know what it means to live now.        我不知道生活在现在意味着什么。
I really don't know.        我确实不知道。
So there is the past and the future.        所以就有了过去和未来。
Would that be right, sirs?        对吗,先生们?
Past and the future.        过去和未来。
And - go on - why do I live in the past?        那么——继续下去——我为什么生活在过去?
I know nothing else but the past.        除了过去我不知道其他东西。
What I want to know about the future is the hope,        关于未来我想知道的就是希望,
which is its own hell.        而那是它自身的地狱。
Right? So that's all. Why do I live this way?        对吗?所以就是这样。我为什么这样生活?
Q: Yesterday we talked about the fact        问:昨天我们谈到过那个事实,
that there was uncertainty in the present and that...        即现在存在不确定性……
K: Ah, ah, I didn't say uncertainty in the present.        克:啊,啊,我没说现在的不确定性。
I want to be certain in the present.        我想在此刻得到确定。
Q: Secure. K: Secure.        问:安全。克:安全。
Q: Secure. Again, that security.        问:安全。又是那个安全。
And there seems to be security in the past        并且似乎在过去中存在安全,
because it's something that's known.        因为它是已知的东西。
So we cling to that.        所以我们紧紧依附其上。
K: We cling to that and yet I'm living in the future.        克:我们依附着过去,然而我又生活在未来。
Q: Projecting.        问:投射。
Q: Living for the future might be better...        问:为将来而生活,可能更好……
K: All right, living for the future - what should be.        克:好吧,为将来而生活——应该怎样。
The function of the intellect apparently        显然智力的功能
is to live in the past, as it has acquired knowledge,        就是生活在过去,因为它获得了知识,
add to the past through the present,        通过现在往过去中添加内容,
and that's living, that's intellectually operating, functioning        而那就是生活,那是智力在操作、在运行
- scientifically, technologically, every way.        ——以科学的方式、以技术的方式,各种方式。
And the dissatisfaction of the past is the hope of the future.        并且,对过去的失望就是对未来的希望。
Because the mind can't be completely satisfied living in the past.        因为头脑不完全满足于生活在过去。
Right? Then what?        对吗?然后会发生什么?
Q: Is it because of the element of time?        问:那是不是因为时间因素?
K: That is time. After all, living in the past is time,        克:那就是时间。归根结底,生活在过去就是时间,
and the future is time.        未来也是时间。
We're asking, sir, aren't we,        我们在问,先生,不是吗,
why has the intellect become so extraordinarily important?        为什么智力变得非常重要?
Q: That includes the emotions, when you say the intellect?        问:当你说智力的时候,是否也包括情绪?
K: No. It controls the emotions.        克:不,智力控制情绪。
It says, 'That's good to have good emotions' - you follow?        它说:“有好的情绪,那就很好”——你明白吗?
Q: A thought, a prejudice is an emotion, a feeling.        问:思想、偏见是一种情绪、一种感受。
It's a strong thought.        是一种很强烈的思想。
K: Strong thought. I don't...        克:强烈的思想。我不……
Q: So the intellect is not distinct from the emotions.        问:所以智力和情绪并不是分开的。
K: I don't like him. Q: Yes, that's also emotion.        克:我不喜欢他这个人。问:是的,那也是情绪。
K: No, wait, sir, look. Is it?        克:不,等等,先生,再看看。是那样吗?
Q: Because he did something, because he is a threat...        问:因为他做了什么事情,因为他是一个威胁……
K: I don't like him because he has this.        克:我不喜欢他,因为他有这个。
It's a conclusion made by the intellect,        那是智力得出的结论,
a thought,        一个想法,
and the thought doesn't like that, and so on.        并且那个想法不喜欢那样,等等。
So, let's... we'll come to the feeling presently.        所以,让我们……我们现在就去了解这个感受。
Q: Because when you say intellect,        问:因为当你说智力的时候,
people tend to think perhaps        人们倾向于认为
you're talking about abstract thinking and cerebral activity.        你可能在谈论抽象的思想和大脑的活动。
K: No, no, no, sir. No, no.        克:不,不,不是,先生。不,不是。
Q: The intellect which acts in our life,        问:在我们生活中发挥作用的智力,
acts in our lives as strong feeling, and strong prejudice, and drive.        在我们的生活中表现为强烈的情绪、强烈的偏见和冲动。
And that's emotion. But if I just think, it has no meaning,        那就是情绪。但如果我只是想一想,那没有什么意义,
but when I think with feeling then it does mischief, then it divides,        但当我带着感情思考的时候,它就会造成伤害、造成分裂,
then it projects into the future.        就会投射到未来。
K: That is so. Then what?        克:就是如此。然后呢?
Q: Sir, when you say intellect,        问:先生,当你说智力的时候,
are you saying intellect as distinct from emotion        你是不是说智力与情绪是有区别的,
or are you saying the intellect        或者你是说智力
which includes emotion and emotional response?        包含着情感和情感反应?
K: Yes. Let's include emotion for the moment. Let's be clear.        克:是的。我们暂时将情感包括在内。让我们理清思路。
We include emotion into it        我们将情感包含进去
- prejudice, like, dislike.        ——偏见、喜欢、不喜欢。
Now, wait a minute. Q: Yes, part of the same thing.        现在,等一下。问:是的,同一件事物的一部分。
K: Why is this happening all the time in me, in us?        克:为什么这一直在我身上、在我们身上发生?
Q: Sir, as the mind biologically        问:先生,因为头脑从生物角度上
must have security, as you mentioned,        必须拥有安全,如你提到过的,
is it possible that in a similar fashion        是否可能是这样:以类似的方式,
the organism is striving for perfection,        生物体要争取完美,
psychically, reaching... [inaudible]        从心理上,达到……【听不清】
K: But that perfection is always in the future,        克:但是那个完美永远在未来,
striving always to achieve the goal        总是努力去实现
which it has invented.        自己发明的目标。
Q: If we say he we're striving for security...        问:如果我们说我们在为安全而努力……
Q: And how about pleasure? It seems to be related to pleasure then.        问:而快乐呢?好像与快乐也有关。
Q: [Inaudible]        问:【听不清】
K: Is one aware that the intellect,        克:你是否觉察到了,
in which is included all this business,        包含所有这些把戏的智力
that it predominates our life?        主宰了我们的生活?
Q: Yes. K: Then why?        问:是的。克:那么,为什么?
Q: Is it not a search for significance?        问:难道不是对意义的追求?
K: Significance to life - to life that has no meaning.        克:生活的意义——这种生活没有意义。
A life of striving - you know, all the rest of it -        一种费力的生活——你知道,诸如此类的一切——
and therefore in that there is no meaning,        所以,其中没有意义,
therefore intellect strives to give a significance or a meaning to it,        所以智力努力想要赋予生活某种意义,
to live differently.        过另外一种生活。
This is a dull stuff, life is, and I'll invent a meaning to it        这是一件无趣的事情,生活就是,所以我要为它发明某种意义,
which will make it interesting. That's all.        使它有趣。这就是全部的把戏。
Q: And I strive some more.        问:而我努力想要得到更多。
Q: Sir, I think... [inaudible]        问:先生,我认为……【听不清】
You mentioned how the mind must have security... [inaudible]        你提到过头脑为何必须拥有安全……【听不清】
K: Not 'I mentioned,' sir, it is. I mean...        克:不是“我提到过”,先生,就是那样。我的意思是……
Q: It is. But you stated it.        问:就是那样。但你表述过。
I mean, we know that the body will compensate        我的意思是,我们知道身体自己会补偿,
if you lose one kidney the other one will grow to twice the size.        如果你少了一个肾,另外一个肾将长成两倍大的尺寸。
This is compensation.        这就是补偿。
Is it possible that there is this        是否可能存在
psychic built-in aim for compensation in that sense,        为了进行这种意义上的补偿,心智从内在建立起某个目标,
but we find the wrong ways to do it,        但我们找到的办法是错误的,
as we do with the mind seeking security?        因为我们通过寻求安全的头脑去实现那个目标?
K: Sir, seeking security and being secure        克:先生,寻求安全和处于安全
are two different things, aren't they?        是两回事,不是吗?
Q: Yes. We...        问:是的。我们……
K: Ah, no, no, no - we are seeking security,        克:啊,不,不,不——我们在寻求安全,
and we said seeking security does,        而我们说过寻求安全确实,
you know, create this mischief. Q: That gives me insecurity.        你知道,制造了这些伤害。问:这让我不安全。
Seeking security is the insecurity. K: Is insecurity.        寻找安全就是不安全。克:是不安全。
Whereas to be completely secure, it's finished.        而实现了彻底的安全,就结束了。
It's not that I am seeking security        不是我要寻求安全
and therefore finding it and clinging to it.        因而找到了安全,然后依附上去。
Q: The mind must have it, as was mentioned, must have it.        问:头脑必须拥有安全,就像提到过的那样,必须拥有。
And there is something comparable        并且身体上存在某种可与之相比的东西,
psychically, because... [inaudible]        因为……【听不清】
...at this point there isn't a counterpart        ……而在这一点,并不存在一个对等于
to this perfection aspect        这个完美方面的东西,
as there is for the security aspect,        就像在安全方面存在的那样,
but we take the wrong path...        但我们采取了错误的途径……
K: I understand that, sir. Yes, I understand.        克:我理解那个,先生。是的,我理解。
Q: The biologists say that thought developed in evolution, based on fear.        问:生物学家说那个思想是在进化中基于恐惧产生的。
Fear was the basis for evolutionary development of thought.        恐惧是思想进化的基础,
Q: Fear is itself a thought.        问:恐惧本身就是一种思想。
Q: So you are asking, sir, why one lives in the intellect        问:所以你问,先生,为什么人生活在智力中
and why there is this perpetual struggle.        以及为什么存在这种无止境的挣扎。
K: You haven't answered me. [Laughs]        克:你没有回答我 。【笑】
Q: But isn't that question itself, does it pose a creation of the intellect?        问:但难道不是那个问题本身,导致了智力的产生?
K: Yes. But I'm saying        克:是的。但我说的是
- and that's only to verbalize a fact that we do live in it -        ——那只是将我们生活在智力中的事实用语言表达了出来——
but the thing one has to find out,        但你必须弄清楚的事情是,
why has this become so colossally important?        为什么它变得无比重要?
Q: But what it seems like we're doing, what I'm doing,        问:但似乎是,我们在做的,我在做的,
is that I'm looking at that question with the intellect,        是我在用智力看这个问题,
and as long as we look at it with the intellect        并且,只要我们用智力来看它,
then we're trying to verbalize and trying to do all this.        那么我们就会尽力言语化,努力去做这一切。
It's the wrong way all the time.        这条道路始终是错误的。
We're giving evaluations and analysis of it,        我们在评估和分析它,
of the question, and our experience, but we're still caught in it.        分析这个问题,和我们的经验,但我们仍然被困其中。
No matter what we're doing here, we're still caught in it.        不论我们在这里做什么,我们仍然身陷其中。
K: Then, sir, let's look at it round the other way: What is living?        克:那么,先生,让我们换另外的方式来看这个问题:生活是什么?
There's the body, the whole organism with all its complex demands,        有身体,这整个有机体及其所有复杂的需求,
the glands, all that        那些腺体,诸如此类
- both biological and psychological,        ——生理的和心理的,
the imposition of the psyche on the body        心智强加给肉体的东西,
wishing it should be this, it should act this way        希望它应该如此,它应该如此行动
- and all the emotional nature,        ——以及所有情绪化的特性,
in which is included pleasure, enjoyment,        其中包括欢乐、享受,
the delight of looking at... and so on, so on        看到……的兴奋等等,等等
- there's love, and there's the intellect -        ——有爱,有智力——
intellect which reasons, looks, observes,        智力进行推理、看、观察,
says this is right, this is wrong,        说,这是正确的,这是错误的,
evaluates and says, 'I should have done this' - all that.        评价并且说:“我应该这么做”——诸如此类。
Why doesn't all the three        为什么这三个
- the organism, love, mind - all work together?        ——有机体、爱、头脑——不能完全一起工作?
Why this one?        为什么是这个?
Why doesn't the whole thing work harmoniously, you know,        为什么这个整体不和谐工作,你知道,
like a good machine that's ticking over?        像一部运转着的好机器那样?
It cannot be harmonious        它无法和谐运转,
as long as one is large or enormous,        只要其中一个是大的或巨大的,
or one is important than the others.        或者一个比其他的更重要。
I wonder if the intellect has assumed supremacy        我想知道智力占据了至高无上的地位,
because it has conceived security        是不是因为它根据过去和未来
in terms of the past or the future.        设想出了安全。
And therefore no security in the present at all.        所以现在完全没有安全可言。
You follow?        你明白吗?
It says I've had food today, I must have food this evening.        它说我今天有了食物,我今晚必须有食物。
So it struggles to have food this evening, and tomorrow.        所以它努力保证今晚和明天要有食物。
I must have my pleasure, my sex - all tomorrow.        我必须有我的快乐、性——明天一切也都要有。
Go on, sirs, let's work it out.        继续,先生们,让我们找出答案。
Or is living in the past,        或者正是生活在过去,
in which there's been security,        在过去中存在安全,
and that desire to have permanent security in the future        以及在未来拥有永久安全的渴望
- as I want tomorrow, food - has built this idea,        ——就像我想要明天有食物——造成了这种想法,
has made the intellect enormously important.        使智力变得无比重要。
Therefore it dominates love, it dominates the organism,        所以,智力控制着爱,它控制着肉体,
it dominates everything.        它控制了一切。
And how does it come about that the three        那么,怎么能够实现这三个
- psychosomatic and plus - live harmoniously, completely        ——身心以及其他——和谐地、完整地生存
- you follow?        ——你明白吗?
not one against the other, battling?        而不是彼此之间互相交战?
How do you do this? How do you bring this about?        你怎样做到这点?你怎样实现这点?
You see, we live - ah, I'm getting somewhere -        你看,我们生存——啊,我们到了某个地方——
we live in a centre        我们生活在一个
created by the intellect - right? -        智力创造的中心之内——对吗?——
centre of ideas, self-centred movement,        思想的中心,自我中心的运动,
which is still the intellect,        那仍然是智力,
the centre which is self-perpetuating,        那个中心是自我延续的,
self-centred activity - that's the centre we live in.        以自我为中心的活动——那就是我们生活的中心。
And that centre must break up, as it does,        而这个中心必然会破碎,正如它所实际发生的,
as we see it operating in ourselves        正如我们看到的它在我们内心运作的那样
- that centre is breaking it up all the time -        ——那个中心始终在将自己弄得支离破碎——
I must live differently, I must be different - you follow? -        我必须过不同的生活,我必须不同 ——你明白吗?——
this should not be, this should be.        这不应该,这应该。
Now, how to break down that centre        那么,怎样破除那个中心,
and live in the whole, not in a part?        从而生活在整体中,而不是生活在部分中?
I don't know if I am making myself clear.        我不知道我是否表达清楚了。
Q: Your first question interested me very much:        问:你的第一个问题让我非常感兴趣:
how do you sustain a seriousness        你怎样保持一种认真,
when most of us here are living in the present right now, with you,        当我们这里的大多数人正与你一起生活在此刻,
and when we leave the environment seduces us...        而当我们离开时,环境会引诱我们……
[inaudible]        【听不清】
and the sustained seriousness that we have here doesn't sustain.        我们在这里能保持的认真就不能继续保持了。
Q: Well, just this instance, I could see my interest falling the other way,        问:哦,就是这个例子,我能看到我的兴致转移了,
and the question drops.        那个问题就被丢下了。
K: Sir, could we put the whole question differently?        克:先生,我们能否以不同的方式提出这个问题?
How does it happen that one can live harmoniously,        一个人能够和谐地生活,这是怎样发生的,
so that one or the other is not overdeveloped,        这样他或者别人就不会过度发展,
one or the other is not in conflict,        他或者别人就不会处在矛盾中,
but function, live, act        而是运行、生活、行动,
as a whole, sane, holy thing?        作为一个完整的、理智的、神圣的个体?
Q: I see that something like building up your muscles, you said...        问:我发现比如锻炼肌肉这样的事情,你说过……
K: No, no. No. That means time.        克:不,不,不。那意味着时间。
I have no time - I'll be dead tomorrow.        我没有时间——我明天就要死了。
Q: No but what I'm saying is: I see that... you say overdeveloped...        问:不,但我说的是:我发现……你说过度发展的……
K: No, sir. No, no, no. Look, sir, we said the intellect dominates,        克:不,先生。不,不。你看,先生,我们说过智力支配、
subjugating the affection, physical organ, and so on.        压制情感、身体器官,等等。
I want, I'm asking myself:        我想要,我在问自己:
how does it happen that one can be completely harmonious?        一个人能够完全和谐,这是怎么发生的?
Not an idea of harmony which is in the future,        不是未来关于和谐的一个想法,
but harmonious now?        而是现在就和谐?
Because from there I can create - you follow? -        因为从那里我能创造——你明白吗?——
I can write. Everything will come right.        我可以写下来。一切都会变得正确。
Q: We have to quiet this giant muscle which is the intellect        问:我们必须让智力这块发达的肌肉安静下来,
that you are talking about. Q: That's what I'm saying.        你所谈的智力。问:那就是我说的意思。
I am saying we are developing all of the time - we have to stop...        我说的是,我们一直在锻炼—— 我们得停下来……
K: No, no, no, no.        克:不,不,不,不是。
No, 'we have to stop' means resistance.        不,“我们得停下来”意味着抵抗。
Q: Which way to stop?        问:用哪种方式停止?
K: We have to dominate it, we have to put it down        克:我们不得不控制它,不得不让它安静下来
- all that is again, we are off.        —— 一切还是原样,我们出局了。
Q: I see one can't do that because that's building it up too.        问:我发现,人无法那么做是因为那又是加强它。
K: No, no, no. That's not my question anymore.        克:不,不,不。那不再是我原来的问题了。
My question is now: how can this harmony take place?        我刚才的问题是:这样的和谐怎样才能发生?
Knowing the other thing is overdeveloped.        知道了另一样东西是过度发达的。
Which means a life in which there is no conflict at all.        那意味着一种根本没有冲突的生活。
Conflict is violence, you know, all the rest of it        冲突就是暴力,你知道,诸如此类的一切
- so how does this happen?        ——那么,这样的和谐怎么发生?
Has it anything to do with awareness?        与觉察有关吗?
Q: Sir, it has to do with that we are not being aware.        问:先生,它肯定与我们的不觉察有关。
K: No, no, I'm asking, sir, I'm asking:        克:不,不,我是在问,先生,我在问:
disharmony, because we live in disharmony,        不和谐,因为我们生活在不和谐中,
to come upon this harmony,        要遭遇这和谐,
I'm asking myself if awareness is the key to it.        我在问我自己觉察是不是其中的关键。
Q: Awareness of the disharmony?        问:对不和谐的觉察?
K: No, no, no, forget, forget - you see,        克:不,不,不,忘掉,忘掉—— 你看,
you're all translating immediately into something else.        你总是立即翻译成别的什么东西。
Awareness of disharmony in order to be harmonious. I don't mean that.        为了和谐而认识到不和谐。我不是这个意思。
I'm asking if awareness is the key        我在问,是否觉察是那个关键,
that brings about, naturally, harmony.        它能自然带来和谐。
Q: Sir, is awareness an intellectual process?        问:先生,觉察是个智力过程吗?
Q: Awareness of what, sir?        问:觉察什么,先生?
Because the businessman who is generally sharp and cunning        因为商人一般都是思维敏捷的、精明的,
is in his way tremendously aware. K: No, sir.        以他的方式非常警觉。克:不,先生。
Q: He's aware of the slightest advantage.        问:他能觉察到最细微的利益。
Q: Isn't she right?        问:她说的不对吗?
Q: Awareness of what? K: I want to find...        问:觉察什么?克:我想找出……
I'm going to... We are going to...        我将……我们将……
I'm asking you first a question, sir,        我先问你一个问题,先生,
whether awareness is the key to this.        觉察是不是这个问题的关键。
I don't know what awareness is yet        我还不知道觉察是什么
- we are going to find out, we're going to explore it.        ——我们将找出答案,我们将探索这个问题。
So far one has explored the reason of disorder and disharmony        到目前为止已经探索了无序和不和谐的原因
- the supremacy of one or the other,        —— 一个或另一个的至高无上,
this supremacy of the soma, the body,        躯体、身体的至高无上,
or the supremacy of the intellect - emotion or the intellect,        或者智力的至高无上——感情或智力,
or the appetite against the intellect,        或者反对智力的愿望,
and so on, so on, so on - the battle.        等等,等等,等等——战争。
And I say to myself: has awareness        而我对自己说:觉察
- you get it? -        —— 你明白了吗?——
is the awareness that will bring harmony,        觉察能够带来和谐,
that will make everything equal.        使一切同等重要吗?
Q: A function which contains all that and is beyond it.        问:一种包含所有这些并且超越了这些的运作。
K: Yes. I just want to inquire into it.        克:是的。我正要深入探讨。
Q: My question was related to thaT:         问:我的问题与此相关:
if an awareness of that nature, of that type,        如果那种性质、那种类型的觉察,
you say is not an intellectual process,        你说不是一个智力的过程,
then what is being aware?        那么,谁在觉察?
K: We're going to find out, sir, we're going to find out.        克:我们会弄清楚的,先生,我们就要弄清楚。
We're going to find out what it means to be aware.        我们将弄清觉察意味着什么。
Because if the intellect says, 'I will calm down,'        因为,如果智力说:“我要平静下来,”
[laughs] it's a hypocritical thing,        【笑】它就是虚伪的,
and I will just hold myself in, ready to burst at any moment.        我仅仅是收敛自己,随时准备爆发。
Q: Also that's a calculation.        问:那也是一种计算。
K: You follow? And if the body says,        克:你明白吗?如果身体说:
'All right then, I have a chance now'        “那好吧,现在我的机会来了”
- [laughter] - you follow? -        ——【笑】——你明白吗?——
'Now I can let off the emotions.'        “现在我能释放情绪了。”
So can we...        所以,我们能否……
what does awareness mean?        觉察意味着什么?
Why is awareness important in this? You follow, sir?        在这里面为什么觉察很重要?你跟上了吗,先生?
Here I have a problem. I have a problem.        现在我有一个问题。我有一个问题。
I live in disharmony, in disorder.        我生活在不和谐中,在无序中。
Either the body becomes extraordinarily demanding,        要么身体变得需索无度、
vital - you follow? -        至关重要——你明白吗?——
with its lust, with its appetites, with its...        带着它的欲望、它的嗜好、它的……
or the intellect, or the emotions,        要么是智力或情绪,
sentimentality of - you know.        或者多愁善感—— 你知道的。
And I see that and I say,        我看到了这些,然后我说:
'Now, what is the element        “现在,什么要素
that will bring all this into perfect rhythm?'        会将所有这些带入完美的韵律中?”
So that the body's perfect, you know, healthy,        以至于身体是完美的,你知道,是健康的,
so the emotions are really...        所以情绪真正地……
they are real emotions, not invented by the intellect,        它们是真实的情感,不再是智力和理性所发明的,
and reason, sane, healthy.        而是理智的、健康的。
I mean, whole implies - I don't know if you've looked at that word -        我的意思是,完整意味着——我不知道你是否看过那个词——
'whole' means whole,        “完整”意味着整体,
in which is implied health, sanity,        其中隐含着健康、理智,
and also 'whole' implies h- o-l-y - holy -        并且,“完整”也意味着h-o-l-y——神圣——
all that is in that word.        所有这些都包含在这个词中。
Which means the whole thing is whole, sane.        那意味着,这个整体是完整的、理智的。
Now, what is the thing that will bring this about?        那么,是什么东西能带来这个?
Not effort, because effort means... intellect says,        不是努力,因为努力意味着……智力说:
'By Jove, I see that's the way to live,        “天哪,我发现那就是生活的方式,
and I'm going after it.        所以,我要追随它。
I'm going to train the body, I'm going to train...'        我要训练身体,我要训练……”
- you follow? It's gone.        —— 你明白吗? 它就消失了。
Q: If you say that is the way to live so I'm going after it,        问:如果你说那就是生活的方式,所以我要追随它,
you haven't really seen it. K: Of course not, of course not.        那么你就没有真正看到它。克:当然没有,当然没有。
So what is the thing that will make it whole,        所以,是什么会使它完整,
in which there must be not the slightest whisper of effort,        其中没有一丁点儿努力,
not the slightest directive? Right, sir?        没有一点儿指导?对吗,先生?
Because the moment the intellect takes charge...        因为一旦智力开始主导……
So the mind must be free of the directive,        所以,头脑要摆脱指导,
sense of effort.        摆脱努力。
Now, how does this happen?        那么,这些怎样发生?
Shall I go on, sir?        我可以继续吗,先生?
Must the thing come from the outside        这个东西是来自外部呢,
or must it begin from the inside out?        还是自内而外呢?
I don't know if I'm using non-technological words, but...        我不知道我是否在使用非技术性的词语,但……
So let's tackle it. What does awareness mean?        让我们来解决它。觉察意味着什么?
Because I think that is the key.        因为我认为那就是关键。
I think - I may change it - you follow, sir? -        我认为——我可能改变它—— 你明白吗,先生?——
because we are exploring together,        因为我们在一起探索,
therefore you may find something different.        所以你可能发现不同的东西。
We are together in this.        我们一起探讨这个问题。
What does it mean?        它意味着什么?
I see this. I see through observation,        我看到了这点。我通过观察看到,
therefore through experiment,        进而通过试验、
testing, observing the fact, the event,        测验,观察那个事实、那个事件,
and learning about it, and not make from that...        了解它,而不是从中做出什么……
not acquiring knowledge but merely learning.        不是获取知识,而仅仅是学习。
Because knowledge, when it becomes knowledge,        因为知识,当它变成知识,
it becomes the intellect and then it will say it will guide it.        它就变成了智力,它就会说由它来引导。
I don't know if you... Can we go on from there?        我不知道你是否……我们能继续吗?
Q: Could you repeat that again?        问:请你重复一遍好吗?
K: What did I say? Q: Because when you act from knowledge        克:我说了什么?问:因为当你根据知识行动,
then it is again the intellect which is guiding.        那么它又成了引导的智力。
But learning is not to act from knowledge,        但学习不是根据知识行动,
it is a state of being in which knowledge is not acting.        它是一种存在的状态,在其中知识没有运作。
K: I see, one observes, the fact.        克:我看到,一个人观察到,那个事实。
The facT:  the intellect dominates,        那个事实就是:智力占支配地位,
the other two play second fiddle.        其他两个演奏第二小提琴。
Now, harmony means functioning together        而和谐意味着一起运转,
as a whole, not as fragments.        作为一个整体,而不是作为碎片。
Now, the mind sees this, sees how it is broken up.        现在,头脑看到了这点,看到了它是怎样破碎不堪的。
Right? How does it see it?        对吗?它怎样看到?
Is the seeing a word?        看见是一个词吗?
Q: Or accumulated knowledge.        问:或者是积累的知识。
K: No, a word.        克:不,一个词。
That is, I must see this thing.        就是说,我必须看到这个事情。
Or do I, by the very fact of this dialogue, it is exposed        或者,通过我们的对话这个事实本身,它被揭示出来,
and I see it as I see it in a map        因而,我如同在一幅地图中一样看到它
- the three operating in contradiction with each other,        —— 那三个彼此反其道而行,
one dominating, and so on. Now, how do I see it?        一个处于支配地位,等等。那么,我是怎么看到的?
Q: Is awareness maybe spontaneity?        问:觉察也许是自发的?
K: Not... dangerous word, sir, if I may say so,        克:不是……危险的词语,先生,请允许我这样说,
because to be spontaneous implies freedom.        因为自发意味着自由。
And a mind that is... intellect that is dominating, is not free.        而头脑是……起支配作用的智力,不是自由的。
How do I see this? How does the mind see this thing?        我怎样看到这点?头脑怎样看到这件事情?
See this fragmentation?        看到这种支离破碎?
One fragment supremely important, the rest are minor?        一个碎片是至关重要的,其他的是次要的?
I mean, when we use 'see,' how do you see it, sir?        我的意思是,当我们用“看见”这个词,你是怎样看到它的,先生?
You see these three fragments - one a little taller than the rest.        你看到这三个碎片——一个比其余的高一点。
And when you say, 'I understand that,' what do you mean by that?        而当你说:“我理解那个,”你那样说是什么意思呢?
Is it a verbal understanding,        是一种字面的理解呢,
or is it an observation of what actually is,        或者是一种对事实的观察呢,
without any distortion        不带任何扭曲
- saying this must not be, this should be?        ——不说这不应该,这应该?
I don't know if... How do you look at it?        我不知道是否……你怎么看它?
Q: Does the seeing allow for a certain verbal action too?        问:“看见”也允许有某种语言行为发生吗?
Do we ruin it the moment we ascribe any word to it?        一旦我们归于某个词,就会破坏它吗?
K: No, I may use words afterwards. Q: Afterwards.        克:不是的,我可以随后采用词语。问:随后。
K: Yes. Q: The seeing is before the word.        克:是的。问:“看见”是在词语之前。
K: The word - that's right. Before the word, obviously,        克:词语 ——对。在词语之前,显然如此,
otherwise the seeing is the word.        否则,“看见”就是那个词。
Q: Don't we perhaps immediately...        问:难道我们不可能马上……
K: Yes, that's what I was warning, too.        克:是的,那也是我在提醒的事情。
Is it a verbal seeing or actual seeing?        那是字面的看见呢,还是实际的看见?
Q: How can you see it if your mind is always condemning?        问:如果你的头脑一直在谴责,你怎么能看见呢?
Your censor is interfering, and you can't see it.        你的审查者在干预,所以你不能看到它。
K: Yes, doctor, but look, sir, this is a fact, isn't it?        克:是的,博士。但看一下,先生,这是一个事实,不是吗?
Q: Yes. K: The fact that one is these three.        问:是的。克:事实就是人是三者的组合。
Q: Yes, that's right. K: That's a fact.        问:是的,正确。克:那是一个事实。
Now, how do you look at that fact?        那么,你怎样看那个事实?
Q: I'm saying you can't look at it without...        问:我是说你不能看着它而没有……
K: No, no, no, I'm not interested in your condemnation,        克:不,不,不,我不关心你的谴责、
judgment, evaluation - then you don't see.        判断、评价——那样你就看不到了。
So put aside all that and look.        所以,把那些都抛开再去看。
Then how do you see it?        然后你怎么看到它?
If you put that out        如果你排除了那些,
- if you put... justification, condemnation, all the rest of it,        —— 如果你排除了……辩护、谴责,诸如此类,
aren't you looking harmoniously?        难道你不就是在和谐地观察吗?
Q: [Inaudible]        问:【听不清】
K: No, sir, no, sir, no, sir, do go slow.        克:不,先生,不,先生,不,先生,一定慢慢来。
Are you looking through the intellect,        你是在透过智力观察吗?
which justifies, condemns, says this is right,        智力辩护、谴责,说这是正确的,
society has produced this, etc., etc.        社会造就了这个,等等,等等,
- which is all the act of the intellect -        —— 这都是智力的活动——
and when you put aside justification, condemnation and all that,        而当你将辩护、谴责和诸如此类的一切都放在一边,
how do you look at it?        你怎么看它?
Q: You look attentively at the whole. K: Do you?        问:你全神贯注地看着那个整体。克:你做到了吗?
Don't theorize about it, then we play tricks.        不要将它理论化然后再耍花招。
Can you look at this table, sir,        先生,你能看着这张桌子,
without being caught in the description?        而不陷入对桌子的描述吗?
Because the description is not the table.        因为描述不是那张桌子。
Right? Can you look at it without the word?        对吗?你能不带词语地看它吗?
Saying it's a marble, I like it, I don't like it, strange painting        说,它是大理石的,我喜欢它,我不喜欢它,奇怪的油漆,
- you know, all the rest of it, go through it -        ——你知道的,诸如此类,检查它——
how ugly, how beautiful, etc., etc.        多么丑,多么美,等等,等等,
- just to observe.        ——而仅仅是观察。
Q: And even observe without looking at a table.        问:甚至不去看桌子而观察。
K: Ah, no, no - how can I observe without looking at...        克:啊,不,不——我不看怎么能观察……
Q: It's a great idea.        问:这是一个伟大的观念。
K: Then you are looking at the idea of a table.        克:那么你就是在看桌子这个概念。
Can you look that way?        你能那样看吗?
And when you do look that way, don't you see the whole of it,        而当你那样看的时候,难道你看见的不是它的整体,
not just what you think it should be.        而不是你认为它应该怎样。
So can the mind look at the three fragments        所以,头脑能否看着那三个碎片,
without the word,        而不带言词,
and therefore justification, or adjustment, and so on,        因而不带着辩护或谴责,等等,
without all that, can the mind look at this fact?        不带所有这些,头脑能看这个事实吗?
T: Five minutes left.        T:还剩5分钟。
K: He wants five minute's rest.        克:他想休息5分钟。
T: There are five minutes left.        T:还有5分钟。
K: I see.        克:我知道了。
Q: It has to become quiet.        问:它必须变得安静。
K: Does it, sir - quiet? What does that mean?        克:它是否,先生——安静了下来?那意味着什么?
Q: I can't see this table - thoughts keep coming in to block it.        问:我看不到这张桌子——想法不断出来阻碍。
K: No, sir.        克:不,先生。
Look, sir, do look at it, it's very interesting, do look at it.        看,先生,务必看一看,这非常有趣,看着它。
If you really want to look at that table, is there any thought?        如果你确实想看那张桌子,还会有任何想法吗?
When you are inattentive, all the things happen.        当你漫不经心的时候,所有的事情才会发生。
Therefore awareness and attention is the factor of harmony.        所以觉察和关注是和谐的要素。
I don't know if you are...        我不清楚你是否……
If I don't look... if the mind doesn't look...        如果我不看……如果头脑不看……
if the mind looks with any distortion,        如果头脑带着任何扭曲去看,
which is of effort, judgment, etc., etc.,        扭曲就是努力、判断,等等,等等,
then the observation is distorted,        那么,观察就被扭曲了,
disharmony, not harmonious.        不和谐了。
Now, to look at it with harmony        现在,和谐地看着它
is to look at these fragments        就是看着这些碎片
without any distortion, prejudice,        而不带任何扭曲、偏见、
want, must not, all the rest of it.        希望、不应该怎样,诸如此类。
And doesn't that itself create silence?        难道这本身不就会带来寂静吗?
Not the mind must become silent but that itself...        不是头脑必须变得安静,而是那本身……
Q: The looking.        问:那个看。
K: If I want to look at that tree,        克:如果我想看那棵树,
or that sunset, or these lovely hills, I look.        或者日落,或这些可爱的山丘,我看。
And that very look wipes away everything else.        并且正是这个看,扫除了其他的一切。
Q: Are you saying we're not interested in looking?        问:你是说,我们对看没有兴趣?
K: No, no. No.        克:不,不。不。
Then you will say, 'How am I to have the interest?' [Laughs]        然后你会说:“我怎么才能有兴趣呢?”【笑】
We are caught in a trap then.        这样我们就掉进了一个陷阱。
But to see the fact that we live in disharmony,        但看到我们生活在不和谐中这个事实,
to see how this disharmony, this disorder has come into being        看到这种不和谐、这种无序是怎样产生的
- of intellect, and so on, so on - just to see it.        ——智力的混乱,等等,等等 ——仅仅去看。
And the very seeing of it has its own silence.        而正是这个“看见”具有它自身的宁静。
Because without...        因为如果没有……
if there is a noise I can't look at those mountains.        如果有噪音,我就无法看那些山峰。
The very looking at those mountains        正是对山的看本身
is bringing about its own silence.        带来了它自身的宁静。
So how do you look?        那么,你怎么看?
Through the intellect?        通过智力?
Do you look at that tree, those hills,        你看这些树、这些山丘,
or do you look at these fragments, the intellect, and so on        或者你看这些碎片、智力,等等
- how do you look at all this? With chattering?        ——你怎么看这一切?带着(头脑的)喋喋不休吗?
Can we look at this question in another way?        我们可以换种方式看这个问题吗?
You know, control        你知道,控制
has apparently become extraordinarily important,        显然已经变得异乎寻常地重要,
because they say you must have...        因为他们说你必须让……
the body must be completely controlled,        身体必须被完全控制,
your mind must be completely held        你的头脑必须被完全掌控,
so that it doesn't wander off.        以便它不会到处漫游。
And your emotions and everything must be trained.        并且你的情感和一切都必须受到训练。
So, meditation implies to make the body sit completely quiet.        所以,冥想就意味着使身体完全安静地坐着。
That's the beginning of it.        这是开始。
And to make that body completely quiet,        而要让身体完全安静,
train it by being aware of every movement of the body.        通过觉察身体的每一个移动来训练它。
Right? I don't know if you have ever gone into all this.        对吗?我不知道你是否曾深入过这些。
Watch your body move, or make the body move        看着你的身体移动,或者使身体移动
- the toe, the ankle, the knee, and so on -        ——脚趾,踝关节,膝盖,等等——
gradually watch it, watch it.        逐渐地观察它,观察它。
You follow, sir?        你跟上了吗,先生?
So out of this watching, the body becomes extraordinarily healthy.        所以,借助这种观察,身体变得非常健康。
I don't know if...        我不知道是否……
Have you ever played with this kind of stuff?        你是否曾经玩过这种东西?
So, then in the same way, watch your emotions, watch your thoughts,        然后,同样地,观察你的情感,观察你的思想,
watch so that it doesn't move away        观察以至于它不再
from the direction it has been set.        离开为它设定的方向。
Which is, 'I must think of God.'        比如,“我必须想着上帝。”
I'm using the word 'God,' or an ideal,        我在使用“上帝”这个词或者某个理想,
or some phrase, or something, or other        或者什么词语、什么东西,或其他什么
- Jesus, the Buddha, what it is.        —— 耶稣、佛陀,无论什么。
So that there is... your mind is held in that line,        因而有……你的头脑就被挡在那个界限、
in that groove.        那条沟槽之内。
So control has been imposed on this,        就这样控制被强加在这上面,
and we have accepted this        并且我们接受了
as the way of leading a very straight, orderly life.        以这种方式来过一种正直、有序的生活。
That is very disorder... that itself is disorder.        这非常无序……它本身就是无序。
I don't know if you see this, because that means,        我不知道你是否看到了这点,因为这意味着,
you know, the whole thing is resistance.        你知道,整个事情就是抵抗。
Q: One idea is dominating... K: I mean the whole...        问:一种思想在支配……克:我指的是整个……
We are saying don't do that, that's all wrong, but be aware.        我们说不要那样做,那全错了,但要觉察到这点。
Be aware without distortion, without choice,        没有扭曲、没有选择地觉察到,
without giving a direction.        也不设定任何方向。
And that very awareness will make the body quiet.        而正是这种觉察将使身体安静。
You follow?        你明白了吗?
Not the other way.        而不是其它的方式。
I don't know if you...        我不知道你是否……
Q: Will you discuss anger from the same point of view?        问:以同样的视角,你能否讨论一下愤怒?
I'd like to hear you talk about anger.        我想听你谈谈愤怒。
K: Anger. Q: Anger,        克:愤怒。问:愤怒,
from this point of view of an awareness. You get angry.        从觉察的角度谈一谈。你生气了。
K: No, I don't think you'll ever be angry.        克:不,我不认为你会愤怒。
And therefore there's no need for suppression.        所以不需要压制。
You're ahead of anger. I don't know...        你超越了愤怒。我不知道……
Sorry to put it that way.        抱歉这么说。
Q: The reason I mention this is because psychologists and psychiatrists...        问:我提到这个的原因是心理学家和精神病专家……
K: You see it coming, you can feel it,        克:你看到它产生,你能感觉到它,
and you know how to deal with it.        并且你知道怎样处理它。
We know how to deal with it after it happens.        在它发生之后,我们知道怎样处理它。
Awareness is to see it arise and deal with...        觉察就是看到它产生并且处理……
and soften it down as it happens.        当它发生的时候使它平息下来。
Q: You are saying that we will really know how to deal with it.        问:你说我们真的会知道怎样处理它。
Now it's a matter of our doing it. It really will happen...        那么就是我们要去做的事情了。它真的会发生……
K: Sir, do it now, you will see it for yourself        克:先生,现在就做,你将亲自看到
what extraordinary thing this is.        这是一件多么非凡的事情。
Not because I say. What I say has no importance, but...        不是因为我这么说。我说什么并不重要,而……
Q: [Inaudible] ...the total organism...        问:【听不清】……整个的有机体……
K: Yes, sir, obviously.        克:是的,先生,非常明显。
A man who is extraordinarily energetic is not angry.        一个非常有活力的人不会愤怒。
A man who has got this sense of complete harmony,        一个拥有这种完全的和谐感的人,
you know, complete security, then what in...        你知道,完全的安全,然后什么……
I mean - sorry! [Laughs]        我的意思是——抱歉!【笑】
Q: Is it true that... does love always flow out of this full awareness?        问:爱总是从这种完满的觉察中流淌出来,这是不是真的?
K: Ah, no, no. Sir... [laughs]        克:啊,不,不。先生……【笑】
Do you think a flower that is full of perfume saying, 'This is love'?        你认为一个充满芬芳的花会说“这就是爱”吗?
Q: I don't mean the idea of love.        问:我不是说爱这个概念。
K: I'm saying a flower - there it is.        克:我是说一朵花——就在那儿。
It's got so much perfume, lovely, so tender...        它香气馥郁、美丽,如此柔嫩……
Intellect says love must be personal,        智力说,爱必须是个人的、
impersonal, godly, noble, fine, this, that - you know? -        非个人的、上帝般的、高贵的、美好的,这样,那样 ——你知道?——
make a nice mess of it.        把它变成了一团看似美丽的混乱。
I mean, this whole Catholic world is now in revolution        我是说,整个天主教世界正在发生革命,
because it has accepted        因为它接受了
that in the service of God you must be a celibate.        你必须独身才能侍奉上帝的观念。
Q: Or pretend to be, or seem to be.        问:或者假装是,或看起来是。
K: Celibate - don't actually sleep with a woman        克:独身——真的不与女人上床,
but bottle it inside yourself but don't do it outwardly.        而封闭在你的内心之中,但不显示出来。
And also it's the same in India, the same in Asia.        并且在印度也是这样,在亚洲也是如此。
They boil, burn, destroy themselves inwardly,        他们从内心煎熬、灼烧、破坏着自己,
but outwardly Jesus, and Buddha, and, you know, all the rest of it.        但外在地,基督、佛陀,以及,你知道,诸如此类的一切。
So we are saying, seeing all this phenomenon,        所以我们说,看到这种现象,
the harmonious life is only possible        和谐的生活只可能发生在
in the observation of the fact, the event,        对事实、事件的观察中,
and looking at it - and nothing else.        看着它——别无其他。
How you look matters,        重要的是你怎样看,
not what you look at. I don't know...        而不是你看什么。我不知道……
If there is a distance between the observer and the observed        如果在观察者和被观之物之间存在距离,
then it's finished.        那就完了。
Q: If there is an observer. K: If there is an observer.        问:如果存在一个观察者。克:如果观察者存在。
The flower with perfume doesn't say,        芬芳的花朵不会说:
'This is love, this is beauty,        “这就是爱,这就是美,
I am full of this, I am full of that' - it is that.        我充满这个,我充满那个”—— 它就是那个。
Q: Sir, the very situation,        问:先生,正是这种情形,
the distance between the observer and the observed.        观察者和被观之物之间的距离。
Is there another way of putting that phrase 'distance,'        有没有别的词来表达“距离”这个词,
is there another way of looking at that?        有没有别的方式去看?
K: Another way of looking at it, sir,        克:先生,另一种看的方式,
is to look at it without the observer,        就是没有观察者地看,
to look at it so that there is only this thing that's observed,        就是只有被观察之物的观看,
not the interpretation of what is observed.        而没有对被观之物的诠释。
And when you do look at the fragments        当你看那些碎片时,
- intellect and all the rest of it -        —— 智力和其他的一切——
as the non-observer, are there fragments?        作为非观察者,还存在碎片吗?
I don't know if you... You follow, sir?        我不知道你是否……你跟上了吗,先生?
The observer is a fragment.        观察者是一个碎片。
The observer observes the fragments,        观察者观看那些碎片,
the three fragments.        那三个碎片。
And so he becomes the separate entity,        于是他就成了分离的实体,
an outsider who is looking in.        一个局外者在向里看。
But the observer is the thing that he observes.        但观察者恰恰就是他所观之物。
He may put himself outside but he's part of those three.        他可以把自己分离出来,但他就是这三个之中的一部分。
So the observer is the observed,        所以,观察者就是被观之物,
and therefore no distance.        因而不存在距离。
And can the mind look that way without identifying,        头脑能否以这种方式观察,没有认同,
saying, 'I am the whole, I am this.'        也不说“我是整体,我是这个。”
Sir, look, another extraordinary thing takes place when you look...        先生,你看,当你如此看时,另一件非凡的事情就会发生……
I mean, to look, as we generally do, as the observer and the observed,        我是说,去看,如我们通常所做,作为观察者和被观察之物,
that has created its own discipline,        制造了它自身的纪律、
its own disorder.        它自身的无序。
But to look without the observer requires a discipline        但要不带观察者去观察,需要一种纪律去看,
in the sense of tremendous learning to look.        那纪律的含义是一种非凡的学习。
Right?        对吗?
Q: Learning in looking. K: Learning in looking.        问:在看中学习。克:在看中学习。
Q: Not in... [inaudible] K: No.        问:不是在……【听不清】克:不。
Q: But doesn't that take time? K: No, sir.        问:那不需要花时间吗?克:不需要,先生。
Q: The two are the same. K: No, sir, it doesn't take time.        问:两者为一。克:不,先生,它不需要时间。
Look, sir, look at those mountains without the observer        看,先生,看那些山,而不带着观察者
- just look, sir, and see what takes place.        ——只是看,先生,看看会发生什么。
I wish you were sitting here instead of me; you would see it.        我希望你替我坐在这里;你就会看到。
You see, that's really quite...        你看,那真是非常……
To look without the image - you follow, sir? -        不带着那个形象去看—— 你明白吗,先生?——
that's what it means - to look at my wife, husband,        也就是说—— 去看我的妻子、丈夫、
the hills, the trees, the birds,        山丘、树木、鸟儿,
the whole movement of this beauty without the image.        这整个的美的运动,而不带有任何形象。
Because the image is the observer.        因为形象就是观察者。
The image is the intellect.        形象就是智力。
You see, sir, how tied it is?        你看,先生,它们的连结是多么紧密?
How tied together it all is.        这一切是如此紧密地连结在一起。
So one has to take the whole of it or not at all. [Laughs]        所以,一个人要么整个去把握它,要么不做任何把握。【笑】
You can't say, 'Well, I like a fragment of it,        你不能说:“哦,我喜欢它的一个碎片,
I am going to use it.'        我要利用这块碎片。”
Then you are going to destroy the whole thing.        那样你就会破坏整件事情。
Q: Could you say a few more words about that,        问:对此你能否再多谈一点,
this sustained seriousness -        这种持续的认真——
For a while we can sustain it.        你可以保持一会儿。
You brought up the question yourself,        你自己提出了这个问题,
because I haven't heard you say anything about iT:         而因为我没听到你说任何相关的内容:
sustained seriousness.        持续的认真。
K: Sustained... We have done this. A whole hour we have spent at it!        克:持续的……我们已经做到了这点。一整个小时我们都花在了上面!
Q: [Inaudible]        问:【听不清】
K: Ah! If you spent a whole hour and a half at this,        克:啊!如果你花费一个半小时在这上面,
you will do it the rest of the time, naturally.        你自然就会在其他时间也做到。
Including going to the cinema. [Laughs]        包括去看电影。【笑】
Q: This doesn't leave out playfulness, does it? [Laughter]        问:这并没有排除娱乐,是吗?【笑声】
Q: I hope not.        问:我希望没有。
K: It all depends on what you mean by playfulness. [Laughter]        克:全看你说的娱乐指的是什么。【笑声】
Q: [Inaudible]        问:【听不清】
K: Sir, that means enjoyment is something entirely different        克:先生,那意味着喜悦是完全不同的事情
- joy is entirely different from pleasure.        ——喜悦与快乐完全不同。
Q: Yes. K: Ah, no!        问:是的。克:啊,不!
Q: I think there is some kind of a connotation        问:我认为“认真”这个词
to the word 'seriousness' that...        有某种言外之意……
K: Of course, of course. Q: To the word.        克:当然,当然。问:对于这个词。
K: What time is it, sir? Q: Half past twelve, sir.        克:几点了,先生?问:12点半了,先生。
K: Oh, I think we'd better stop, don't you?        克:哦,我想我们最好停下了,好吗?
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