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The Nature of the Mind 1 心的本质1

H:The Nature of the Mind        希:心的本质
Part One        第一部分
The Roots of Psychological Disorder        心理失序的根源
This is one of a series of dialogues between J Krishnamurti,        这是J•克里希那穆提、
David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake, and John Hidley.        大卫•博姆、鲁伯特•谢尔德雷克以及约翰•希德利之间的系列对话之一。
The purpose of these discussions is to explore essential questions        这些讨论旨在探索最根本的
about the mind, what is psychological disorder,        心灵问题,即何为心理失序,
and what is required for fundamental psychological change?        以及彻底的心理转变需要什么?
J Krishnamurti is a religious philosopher, author, and educator,        J•克里希那穆提是一位宗教哲人、作家、教育家,
who has written and given lectures on these subjects for many years.        他多年来就这些问题著书立说并进行演讲。
He has founded elementary and secondary schools        他在美国、英国和印度
in the United States, England, and India.        建立了几所小学和中学。
David Bohm is professor of theoretical physics        大卫•博姆是理论物理学教授,
at Birkbeck College, London University in England.        就职于英国伦敦大学的伯克贝克学院。
He has written numerous books        他著有多部著作,论述理论物理学
concerning theoretical physics and the nature of consciousness.        和意识的本质。
Professor Bohm and Mr. Krishnamurti have held        博姆教授与克里希那穆提先生,
previous dialogues on many subjects.        之前曾就很多问题进行过对话。
Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, whose recently published book        鲁伯特•谢尔德雷克是一位生物学家,新近发表了一部著作,
proposes that learning in some members of a species        提出一个物种中部分成员的学习过程
affects the species as a whole.        将会影响整个物种。
Dr. Sheldrake is presently consulting plant physiologist        谢尔德雷克博士现在担任位于印度海得拉巴的
to the International Crops Research Institute in Hyderabad, India.        国际农作物研究所的顾问植物生理学家。
John Hidley is a psychiatrist in private practice,        约翰•希德利是一名个人执业的精神病医生,
who has been associated with the Krishnamurti school        与位于加利福尼亚欧亥的克里希那穆提学校
in Ojai, California for the past six years.        六年来一直联系密切。
In the culture there are conflicting points of view        在我们所处的文化中,关于如何恰当处理
about the proper approach to dealing with one's own        自己或他人的心理问题,
or others' psychological problems.        各种观点互相冲突。
And the underlying principles from which these approaches are drawn        而推导出这些方法的基础性原则,
are in even greater conflict.        冲突得更是厉害。
Without invoking a narrow or specialised point of view,        不引述某个狭隘或特别的观点,
can the mind, the nature of consciousness,        我们可以了解心、了解意识的本质、
its relationship to human suffering,        了解它跟人类苦难的关系
and the potential for change be understood?        以及转变的可能性吗?
These are the issues to be explored in these dialogues.        这些就是对话中探讨的问题。
K:Is disorder the very nature of the self?        克:失序即是自我的本质吗?
H:Why do you say that?        希:为什么这么说?
Why do you ask that, if it is the nature of the self?        如果那是自我的本质,你为什么那么问?
K:Isn't the self, the me, the ego,        克:自我、我、自我意识,
whatever word we like to use, isn't that divisive?        不管我们爱用哪个词,它不是分裂的吗?
Isn't that exclusive, isolating process,        那不是一个排外、孤立的过程吗?
the self-centred activity, which causes so much disorder in the world,        自我中心的行为,导致世界那么多的混乱,
isn't that the origin, the beginning of all disorder?        那难道不正是一切混乱的源头和开端吗?
H:The origin being selfish activity.        希:根源就是自私的行为。
K:Yes, self-centred activity, at all levels of life.        克:是的,生活各个层面的自我中心行为。
H:Yes, and certainly that's the way, in which the patient comes in,        希:没错,而且情况无疑正是如此,一个病人进来,
he's concerned about his depression.        他关心的是他的忧伤。
K:Yes. H:Or his fear.        克:是的。希:或是他的恐惧。
K:His fulfilment, his joy, his suffering,        克:他的成功、他的欢乐、他的痛苦、
his agony, and so on, it's all self-centred.        他的愤怒等等,这都是自我中心。
H:Yes. K:So, I am asking, if I may,        希:没错。克:所以,可以的话,我要问
is not the self the beginning of all disorder?        自我难道不是一切混乱的源头吗?
The self - I mean the egotistic attitude towards life,        自我——我指的是自我中心的生活态度,
the sense of individual, emphasis on the individual,        个体感,强调个体,
his salvation, his fulfilment,        强调他的拯救、他的成就、
his happiness, his anxiety, and so on, so on.        他的快乐、他的焦虑等等等等。
H:Well, I don't know that it's the source of the thing.        希:其实,我不知道它是不是事情的源头。
It's certainly the way he experiences it and presents it.        当然这是人类所经历和呈现的方式。
He presents it as his.        他把那一切作为“他的”来呈现。
K:Yes, but I mean, if you go all over the world,        克:是的,但我的意思是,如果你走遍世界,
it is the same expression, it is the same way of living.        你会发现都是一样的表达,都是一样的生活方式。
They are all living their own personal lives,        他们都活在自己个人的生活里,
unrelated to another,        与他人没有联系,
though they may be married, they may do all kinds of things,        虽然他们可能结婚了,可能做各种各样的事,
but they're really functioning from an isolated centre.        但他们做事的出发点确实都是那个孤立的中心。
H:And that centre, that self,        希:那个中心、那个自我
is the source of the difficulty in the relationship?        也是人际关系困难的源头?
K:In relationship.        克:人际关系。
H:And the difficulty that creates the symptoms.        希:导致各种症状的困难。
K:And I wonder, if the psychologists have tackled that problem,        克:我想知道,心理学家是不是解决了这个问题,
that the self is the origin, the beginning of all contradiction,        即自我就是一切矛盾、
divisive activity, self-centred activity, and so on.        一切分裂行为、自我中心行为等等的源头和开端。
H:No. I think that the way psychiatrists and psychologists        希:不是这样的。我认为精神病医生和心理学家
look at this is that the problem is to have an adequate self.        看待这件事的方式是,问题在于要有适度的自我。
K:Adequate self. H:Yes.        克:适度的自我。希:是的。
K:Which means what?        克:那是什么意思?
H: Defining normality...        希:给正常下定义……
K:The self that is functioning... H:Sufficiently.        克:那个在起作用的自我……希:起到充分的作用。
K:...efficiently. H:Yes.        克:……有效率。希:没错。
K:Which means furthering more misery.        克:这也意味着助长更多的痛苦。
B:Well, I don't feel that the psychiatrists        博:哦,我感觉精神病医生
would necessarily agree with you on that last point,        未必会赞同你最后的那个观点。
they might feel that a proper, or properly organised self        他们可能觉得一个合理的自我,或者说合理组织的自我,
could get together with other properly organised selves        可以与合理组织的其他自我共处,
and make an orderly society. K:Yes.        然后形成一个有序的社会。克:是的。
B:And you are saying, as I understand it,        博:而你说的意思,照我的理解,
something quite different. K:Yes.        完全是另一回事。克:是的。
B:Which is that no self can do it.        博:你的意思是,没有自我能够做到这一点。
No structure of the self can make order.        没有自我的结构可以形成秩序。
K:That's right. The very nature of the self        克:没错。自我的本质
must intrinsically bring disorder.        必然会导致混乱。
B:Yes, but I'm not sure this will be clear.        博:是的,但我不确定这一点是很清楚的。
How can that be made clear, evident?        怎么能说清楚这一点,让它显而易见呢?
S:Sorry, it seems to me that the context is even broader        谢:对不起,在我看来这个背景比心理学的背景
than that of psychology,        还要更加广阔,
because in the world we have all sorts of things,        因为这个世界有着各种各样的东西,
which are not human beings with selves,        不是抱持着自我的人类,
there are animals, and plants, and all the forces of nature,        这个世界有动物、植物以及所有的自然力量,
and all the stars, and so on.        所有的星辰,等等。
Now, we see disorder in nature too.        而我们看到自然界中也有混乱。
It may not be consciously experienced -        也许无法有意识地体验到这种混乱——
and a cat that's suffering, or a lion that is suffering,        而一只受苦的猫,或者一头受苦的狮子,
or a mouse, or even an earthworm that's suffering        或者一只受苦的老鼠、甚至一条蚯蚓,
may not come into a psychiatrist's office and say so,        它们也不会跑到精神病医生的办公室来诉苦,
but the fact is that there seems to be disorder        但实际上自然界中似乎也存在着
and conflict within nature.        混乱和冲突。
There are conflicts between forces of nature, inanimate things,        冲突存在于各种自然力、非生物、
earthquakes and so on; there are conflicts within the animal world,        地震等等事物之间;动物世界也存在冲突,
there are even conflicts within the plant world.        甚至植物世界也有冲突。
Plants compete for light,        植物要争夺阳光,
and bigger ones get higher up in the forest,        森林里越大的植株长得越高,
and the smaller ones get shaded out and die.        而矮小的植物就被遮蔽而死。
There's conflict between predators and prey        猎食者和猎物之间存在冲突
- all animals live on other plants or animals.        ——所有的动物都靠吃其他植物或动物为生。
There's every kind of conflict, there's disease,        有各种各样的冲突,有疾病,
there's suffering, there's parasites        有痛苦,有寄生虫
- all these things occur in the natural world.        ——这些事情都会在自然界发生。
So, is the context of psychological suffering and disorder        那么,心理痛苦和失序的整个背景
something that's merely something to do with the mind,        仅仅是某种跟心有关的东西吗?
or is it something to do with the whole of nature,        还是它跟整个自然界有关,
the fact that the world is full of separate things,        跟这样一个事实有关,即世界充满了各自分离的事物,
and that if we have a world which is full of separate things,        而如果我们的这个世界充满了各自分离的事物,
and these separate things are all interacting with each other,        这些分离的事物彼此相互作用,
that there's always going to be conflict in such a world.        那么这样一个世界就永远会有冲突。
B:So, I'm wondering, is it clear        博:那么,我想知道,
that there is that disorder in nature.        自然界存在失序,这点是明确的吗?
Would we say that disorder is only in human consciousness?        我们可不可以说失序只存在于人类的意识中?
K:Yes.        克:对。
B:That is, the phenomena that you have described,        博:就是说,你所描述的现象,
are they actually disorder? That's a question we have to go into.        它们确实是失序吗?那是我们要探究的一个问题。
Or what is the difference between the disorder in consciousness        或者意识中的失序和自然界发生的事情,
and whatever is going on in nature?        有什么不同?
K:I saw the other night on the television        克:那天晚上我在电视上看到
a cheetah chasing a deer, killing it.        一头猎豹在追一只鹿,在猎杀它。
Would you consider that disorder?        你会认为那是失序吗?
S:Well, I would consider that it involves suffering.        谢:哦,我会认为那跟痛苦有关。
K:Suffering, yes.        克:痛苦,是的。
So, are we saying that it is natural in nature        那么,我们的意思是不是
and in human beings to suffer, to go through agonies,        在自然界和人类身上,痛苦、遭受苦难、
to live in disorder? S:Yes.        活在失序中是自然的?谢:是的。
K:So, what do you say to that, sir?        克:那么,先生,对此你怎么认为?
H:Well, I think that's the way it's looked at by the therapist.        希:哦,我认为那是治疗师看这个问题的方式。
To some degree it's felt that this arises        某种程度上,他们认为这个问题是在
in the course of development,        发展过程中产生的,
and that some people have it more than others        有些人比另一些人有着更多的
- suffering - some people are more fortunate in their upbringing,        ——痛苦——有些人在他们的养育过程中更幸运,
for example, in their heredity.        比如,他们的遗传更好。
But it isn't questioned that that may not be necessary        但人们没有质疑,也许这从任何一个绝对的意义上来说
in any absolute sense.        都并非必要。
T:Well, that's what we're questioning.        博:哦,那正是我们在质疑的。
K:That's what I would like to question too.        克:那也是我想要质疑的。
H:Yes.        希:没错。
K: Mr. Sheldrake says it is accepted. It's like that.        克:谢尔德雷克博士说大家已然接受了这一点。情况似乎就是那样。
Human conditioning is to suffer, to struggle,        人类的制约就是受苦、挣扎、
to have anxiety, pain, disorder.        经受焦虑、痛苦、混乱。
H:Well, it's certainly... K:It's human conditioning.        希:哦,显然……克:这是人类的制约。
H:It's certainly necessary to have physical suffering.        希:显然身体上有痛苦是必然的。
People get sick, they die, and we're wondering        人会生病会死亡,而我们想知道
whether or not psychological suffering is analogous to that,        心理痛苦是不是跟那种情况类似,
or whether there's something intrinsically different about it.        还是有些本质上不同的东西。
K:No, sir. I do question, seriously, whether human beings        克:不,先生。我确实质疑,严肃地质疑,人类是不是
must inevitably live in this state,        不可避免要活在这样的境地中,
everlastingly suffering,        无休止地受苦,
everlastingly going through this agony of life.        无休止地遭受生命之痛。
Is that necessary, is it right that they should?        必须这样吗?他们确实应该受苦吗?
H:It's certainly not desirable that they should.        希:他们应该受苦当然不是我们想要的结果。
K:No, no.        克:不,不是。
If we accept that it's inevitable, as many people do,        如果我们接受这是不可避免的,就像很多人认为的那样,
then there is no answer to it. H:Yes.        那这个问题就无解了。希:是的。
K:But is it inevitable?        克:但那是不可避免的吗?
H:Well, physical suffering is inevitable.        希:哦,肉体上的痛苦是不可避免的。
K:Yes. H:Illness, death.        克:是的。希:疾病、死亡。
K:Yes, sir, physical sufferings, old age, accidents, disease.        克:是的,先生。肉体上的痛苦、年老、事故、疾病。
H:Maybe we increase the physical suffering        希:也许我们因为自身的心理问题
because of our psychological problems.        助长了肉体上的痛苦。
K:That's it. That's it. Sir, a mother bearing babies,        克:对了!对了!先生,一个母亲怀孕,
she goes through a terrible time delivering them.        分娩时她要经受剧痛。
Strangely, she forgets that pain.        奇怪的是,她会忘掉那种痛苦。
She has the next baby, another baby.        她会怀上下一个孩子,再生一个。
In India, as you know, there mothers have about seven or eight children.        在印度,你们知道,那里的母亲有七八个孩子。
If they remembered the first agony of it,        如果她们记着头胎生产的剧痛,
they would never have children.        就永远不想再要孩子了。
I have talked to several mothers about it.        我曾跟几个母亲谈论过此事。
They seem to totally forget it. It's a blank after suffering.        她们看起来完全忘记了。痛苦过后就一片空白了。
So, is there an activity in the psyche        所以,是不是存在一种心智活动
that helps the suffering to be wiped away?        有助于清除痛苦?
Recently, personally I have had an operation, a minor operation,        最近,我个人做了一个手术,一个小手术,
there was plenty of pain; quite a lot.        够痛苦的;相当痛苦。
And it went on considerably.        而且持续了好一阵。
It's out of my mind, completely gone.        但我现在已经记不得了,它完全消失了。
So, is it the psychological nourishing        所以,对痛苦的记忆是不是
of a remembrance of pain        一种心理滋养
- you follow? -        ——你理解吗?——
which gives us a sense of continuity in pain?        它给我们一种痛苦的持续感?
H:So you are saying that perhaps the physical suffering in the world        希:所以你的意思是这个世界上肉体的痛苦
is not the source of the psychological suffering,        并不是心理痛苦的来源,
but that the psychological suffering is an action of its own.        但心理痛苦是心理自身的活动。
K:Yes. Right.        克:是的。没错。
You have had toothache, I'm sure.        你一定牙疼过吧!
S:Yes. I've forgotten it. K:You have forgotten it.        谢:是的。我已经忘了。克:你忘了。
Why?        为什么?
If we accept pain is inevitable,        如果我们接受痛苦是不可避免的,
suffering is inevitable,        受苦是不可避免的,
you must continue with it. You must sustain it.        你就一定会继续痛苦。你一定在维持它。
S:No, we have to accept that it's inevitable,        谢:不,我们不得不接受它是不可避免的,
as it happens sometimes.        因为它有时会发生。
But we can forget physical pain;        但我们可以忘掉肉体上的痛苦;
can we forget the kind of psychological pain that's caused        我们可以忘记那种心理上的痛苦吗?
by natural things like loss, death of people?        一些很自然的事情引起的,比如人死了,失去了某个人。
K:Yes, we'll come to that.        克:是的,我们会谈到那个。
I come to you.        我来找你。
I've a problem with my wife, if I'm married.        我跟妻子出现了问题,如果我结婚了的话。
I am not, but suppose I am married.        我没结婚,不过假设我结婚了。
I come because I can't get on with her.        我找你是因为我无法跟她相处。
H:Yes.        希:接着说。
K:And she can't get on with me.        克:而她也无法跟我相处。
And we have a problem in relationship.        我们之间的关系有问题。
I come to you. How will you help me?        我来找你。你要怎么帮我?
This is a problem that everybody's facing.        这是每个人都在面临的问题。
H:Yes.        希:是的。
K:Either a divorce.        克:要么离婚。
H:Yes. K:Or adjustment.        希:是的。克:要么调整。
And is that possible when each one wants to fulfil,        然而那可能吗?当每个人都想要成就,
wants to go his own way,        想要走他自己的路,
pursue his own desires, his own ambitions, and so on?        追求他自己的欲望、自己的野心等等?
H:You are saying that the problem arises out of the fact        希:你是说问题源自这样的事实,
that they each have their own interests at heart.        即他们内心各有各的兴趣。
K:No, it's not interest, it's like...        克:不,不是兴趣,它就像……
Sir, we are all terribly individualistic.        先生,我们都极度个人主义。
H:Yes.        希:是的。
K:I want my way, and my wife wants her way.        克:我想要这样,我妻子想要那样。
Deeply.        深层意义上的。
H:And we see that our needs are in conflict for some reason.        希:而且我们看到由于某些原因我们的欲望互相冲突。
K:Yes, that's all. Right away you begin.        克:是的,就是那样。你很快就开始那样了。
After the first few days or few months of relationship,        在关系的最初几天或几个月后,
pleasure and all that, that soon wears off and we are stuck.        快乐啊,类似的种种,很快就消逝了,然后我们就被困住了。
H:Okay, that's the same problem then with the mother        希:好,那跟母亲养育这个孩子,然后把它当做自己的玩具
raising this child and making it her toy.        是同样的问题。
Her needs are in conflict with the needs of the child.        她的需要跟孩子的需要是冲突的。
K: Please, perhaps you'll go on, sir.        克:先生,也许你可以继续说下去。
The mother, her mother was also like that.        母亲,她的母亲也是那样。
H:Yes.        希:是的。
K:And the whole world is like that, sir. It's not the mother.        克:整个世界就是那样,先生。不是那个母亲的问题。
H:Yes.        希:是的。
K:So, when I come to you with my problem, you say it's the mother.        克:那么,当我带着我的问题来找你,你告诉我是母亲的问题。
H:No, I wouldn't say it's... K:I object to that.        希:不是的,我不会说是……克:我反对那种说法。
H:I wouldn't say it's the mother. K:Ah, no, I'm pushing it.        希:我不会说是母亲的问题。克:啊,不是,我在推出这个结论。
H:You are saying that it's a much broader problem.        希:你是说,那是一个大得多的问题。
K:Much deeper problem than the mother or the brother        克:问题远比母亲或哥哥没有把孩子放在正确的位置之类
didn't put the baby on the right pot, or something. (Laughter)        深刻得多。(笑声)
H:Right.        希:没错。
Then it appears that the needs are in conflict.        那么看起来各种需要是冲突的。
K:No, I wouldn't say needs are in conflict.        克:不,我不会说需要是冲突的。
Basically, they are divisive; self-centred activity.        基本上,它们是分裂性的、自我中心的行为。
That inevitably must bring contradiction,        那必然会不可避免地引起矛盾,
you know, the whole business of relationship and conflict.        你知道的,关于关系和冲突的这整件事。
H:Yes.        希:是的。
K:Because each one wants his pleasure.        克:因为每个人想要自己的快乐。
H:There's self-centred activity on the part of the person        希:那个养育孩子的人,
who's raising the child or on the part of the person        或者处于婚姻关系中的人,
who is in the relationship, married.        也存在自我中心的行为。
The child is the victim of that.        所以孩子就成了那种行为的牺牲品。
K:The child... H:The child is the victim of that.        克:孩子……希:孩子成了牺牲品。
K:Of course.        克:当然。
H:And then grows up to perpetuate it.        希:然后孩子长大后就继续那样。
K:And the mother's father and mother's fathers are like that too.        克:母亲的父亲和母亲的父亲们也是那样的。
H:Yes. Now, why does it have to happen that way?        希:是的。那么,为什么不得不那样?
Are we saying that's the way it is in nature? Or are we saying that...        我们的意思是,那是自然界也有的方式?还是……
K:Oh, no.        克:噢,不是的。
S:Well, I mean, there are certain conflicts in nature.        谢:其实,我的意思是,自然界存在某种冲突。
For example, among troops of gorillas or baboons        比如在大猩猩或狒狒大军中
- take baboons or even chimpanzees -        ——举狒狒甚或黑猩猩的例子吧——
there's a conflict among the males.        雄猩猩之间存在冲突。
Often the strongest male... K:Yes, quite.        常常是最强壮的雄猩猩……克:是的,当然。
S:...wishes to monopolise all the attractive females.        谢:……想要垄断所有有魅力的雌猩猩。
Now, some of the younger males want to get in on the act as well.        那么,有些年轻的雄猩猩也想凑热闹。
They try going off with these females and this younger male        它们试图抢走这些雌猩猩,这个年轻的雄猩猩
will fight and beat them off. So they'll be kept out of this.        奋起战斗,把它们都击退了。所以它们就被踢出局了。
This selfish activity of this one male        这个雄猩猩的自私行为
keeps most of the females to himself.        使得大多数的雌猩猩归他所有。
The same occurs in red deer, where the stag will monopolise the females.        红鹿也有同样的情况,牡鹿会垄断所有的牝鹿。
Now, these are examples of conflict in the animal kingdom        那么,这些是动物世界冲突的例子,
which are quite needless.        实在是没有必要。
There would be enough food for these hens without pecking each other.        这些母鸡有足够的食物,不必互相啄来啄去。
Now, these are not exceptions,        那么这些并不是例外,
we can find this kind of thing throughout the animal kingdom.        在整个动物世界,这类事情我们随处可见。
So, I don't think that the origin of this kind of selfish conflict        所以,我认为这类自私的冲突的根源
is something just to do with human societies        不只跟人类社会
and the way they are structured.        及其构造方式有关。
I think we can see in biological nature this kind of thing.        我认为我们可以在生物本性中看到这类事情。
K:Are you saying that as we are the result of the animal,        克:你是说因为我们是动物的结果,
as we human beings evolved from the animal,        因为我们人类是从动物进化来的,
we have inherited all those pecking order?        所以我们继承了所有啄斗的规则?
S:Yes, I think we've inherited a lot of animal tendencies        谢:是的,我认为从我们的动物祖先那里
from our animal forbearers. K:Oh, yes, yes.        我们遗传了许多动物倾向。克:噢,是的,是的。
S:And I think that many of these show up in these psychological problems.        谢:而且我觉得这些倾向很多都在这些心理问题中体现了出来。
K:Yes, but is it necessary that we should continue that way?        克:是的,但我们该继续那样下去吗?那是必要的?
S:Ah.        谢:啊!
K:We are thoughtful, we are ingenious in our inventions,        克:我们深思熟虑,我们善于发明,
extraordinarily capable in certain directions,        在某些特定的方向上相当能干,
why should we not also say,        我们何不也这样说:
'We won't have this,        “我们不要再这样了,
the way we live, let's change it.'        我们的生活方式,让我们来改变它。”
S:Well, we can say that; many people have said it.        谢:哦,我们可以这么说;不少人这么说了。
K:I know, many people have said it.        克:我知道,不少人这么说了。
S:But without very much effect.        谢:不过没什么效果。
K:Why?        克:为什么?
S:Well, that indeed is a question.        谢:哦,那确实是个问题。
Is it that we're so completely trapped in the ancestry of the past?        是因为我们被过去的祖先局限得太彻底了吗?
K:Or so heavily conditioned that it's impossible to be free.        克:还是制约太沉重,不可能自由了。
S:Well, there are two possible kinds of conditioning:        谢:哦,有两种可能的制约:
one is the genuine biological conditioning        一种是真正的生物性制约,
that comes from our animal heritage,        来自我们的动物性遗传,
which means that we inherit all these tendencies.        这意味着我们遗传了所有这些倾向。
K: Let's accept that.        克:我们先接受这一点吧。
S:Now, that is undoubtedly extremely strong.        谢:那么,那种制约无疑是极其强大的。
It goes right back into our animal past.        它直接回溯到我们动物性的过去。
K:Right.        克:没错!
S:The other kind of conditioning is the kind of argument        谢:另一种制约是我提出的
that I'm putting forward, perhaps, the argument:        一个论点,或者一个猜想,这个观点是:
this has always been so; human nature is like this,        一直都是这样;人类的本性如此,
there have always been wars and conflicts,        一直都有战争和冲突,
and all that kind of thing, and therefore there always will be,        诸如此类的事情,因此将来也一直都会这样,
that the most we can do is try to minimise these,        我们最多能尽量减少这种状况,
and that there'll always be psychological conflicts        而且,在家庭和人际关系中,
within families and between people,        也一直都会存在心理冲突,
and that the most we can do is try and minimise these        我们最多能尽量减少这种状况,
or at least make them liveable with.        或者至少让它们变得容易适应。
K:So, accept the conditioning, modify it,        克:所以就是接受制约,改善它,
but you cannot fundamentally change it.        但你无法彻底转变它。
S:Yes. I'm saying this is a possible kind of conditioning,        谢:是的。我的意思是,这可能也是一种制约,
the belief that we can't really change it radically        相信我们无法真正彻底改变,
is another kind of conditioning. I'm a victim of it myself.        是另一种制约。我本人就是其受害者。
So, I don't know if it's possible to get out of it.        所以,我不知道有没有可能摆脱出来。
K:That is what I want to discuss.        克:这就是我想讨论的。
Whether it's possible to change the human conditioning.        是否可能转变人类的制约。
And not accept it,        不要接受它,
say, as most philosophers, the existentialists        像大多数的哲学家、存在主义者
and others say, your human nature is conditioned.        以及其他人说的那样,你的人性就是深受制约的。
You cannot change. You can modify it,        你改变不了的。你可以改善一点,
you can be less selfish,        你可以稍微不那么自私,
less pain, psychologically have problems, bear up with pain,        不那么痛苦,心理上有问题,就忍受痛苦,
this is natural, we have inherited from the animals.        那是自然的,我们从动物那里遗传来的。
We'll go on like this for the rest of our lives        我们的余生和来生
and for the lives to come.        就要这样过下去。
Not reincarnation, other people's lives.        来生不是指转世,而是指其他人的生活。
It'll be our conditioning, human conditioning. Do we accept that?        这将是我们的制约,人类的制约。我们接受了这一点?
Or should we enquire into whether it's possible        还是我们应该探究一下,看看有没有可能
to change this conditioning?        改变这种制约?
S:Yes. I think we should enquire into that.        谢:是的。我觉得我们应该探究那个问题。
K:If you say it cannot be changed, then the argument is over.        克:如果你说不可能改变,那么讨论就结束了。
S:All right, so I'll say... K:No, I'm not saying...        谢:没错,所以我说……克:不,我不是那个意思……
S:I'd like it to be changed, I deeply want it to be changed.        谢:我想让它改变,我很想让它改变。
So I think that this question of enquiring into the possibility        所以我觉得这个探究可能性的问题
is extremely important.        相当重要。
But one of my points,        不过我的一个观点是,
to go back to the conditioning point, is that        回到关于制约的观点,就是,
a lot of this conditioning is deep in our biological nature,        这种制约很多深植于生物本性中,
and people who wish to change it        那些希望改变它的人,
merely by changing the structures of society...        只是想靠改变社会结构……
K:Oh, I'm not talking about that, of course.        克:噢,我说的当然不是那个。
S:...are operating at too superficial a level.        谢:……那种做法停留在太肤浅的层面了。
K: Like the Communists want to change it.        克:就像共产主义者想要改变一样。
S:But the idea that you can do it by just changing the environment        谢:但那种只要改变环境就可以实现的观点,
is what the Communists thought and still think,        是共产主义者过去的想法,他们现在还这么认为。
and in a sense the experiment has been tried,        某种意义上,这一实验已经开展了,
and we can see the results in various communist countries.        我们可以看到各个共产主义国家的实验结果如何。
And of course, believers in that would say, well,        当然,信仰这一套的人会说:哦,
they haven't tried properly,        他们的实验手法不恰当,
or they betrayed the revolution, and so on.        或者他们背叛了革命,诸如此类。
But nevertheless, the basis of that belief is that        然而,那种信仰的基础是,
the source of all the evils and the problems is in society,        一切罪恶和问题的根源在于社会,
and by changing society man is perfectible.        通过改变社会,人类就会变得完美。
K:But society is formed by us. S:Yes.        克:但社会是我们组成的。谢:是的。
K:And by us it is going to be changed.        克:而且只有通过我们,社会才能得到改变。
So we haven't changed ourselves.        所以我们还没有改变我们自己。
We depend on society to change us.        我们依赖社会来改变我们。
And society is what we have made it; so we are caught in that trap.        而社会就是我们造就的;因此我们就困在这个陷阱里了。
S:Yes.        谢:是的。
Exactly; and if we start off with a heritage,        确实如此;如果我们从遗传开始,
which is built into us, inherited,        那些深植于我们体内的、遗传的、
which comes from our biological past,        来自我们的生物性过去的东西,
and if we start with that, and we start with these societies        如果我们从那个开始,并且从也有不良影响的这些社会开始,
that also have bad effects, some of them, and to varying degrees,        它们有些是这样的,在不同程度上都是如此,
and we just try to change the society,        然后我们只是试图改变社会,
the other part, the inherited part, is still there.        而另一部分,遗传的那部分,依旧存在。
K:Oh, yes, but cannot those also be transformed?        克:噢,是的,但不能也改变那些吗?
S:I really...        谢:我真的……
K:I may have inherited - what? - violence        克:我也许遗传了——什么?——暴力
from the apes and so on, so on. Can't I change that?        从猿类等等身上遗传来的。我就不能改变那一点吗?
The inherited biological... B: Drives.        遗传的生物性的……博:驱动。
K:...conditioning. Surely that can be transformed.        克:……制约。当然可以改变。
S:Well, all societies surely seek to transform        谢:哦,当然所有的社会都力图改变
these biological drives we have, and all processes        我们具有的这些生物性驱动,
of bringing children up in all societies seek to        并且所有的社会教养孩子的整个过程都力图
bring these drives within the control of the society.        把这些驱动纳入社会可控的范围内。
Otherwise you would have complete anarchy.        否则就会是彻底的无政府状态。
However, these drives are always brought        然而,这些驱动常常被引入
within certain social forms, and individual aggression        特定的社会形式中,而且在大多数社会中,
is obviously discouraged in most societies.        显然也不鼓励个人攻击。
But is it really transformed? Doesn't it just come out again        但真的转变了吗?它不是以整体性的
in the aggression of the society as a whole - war, and so on.        社会攻击再现了吗——比如战争等等。
So, we can see that these things are transformed by society,        所以,我们可以看到这些东西被社会改头换面了,
these basic drives that we inherit.        这些我们遗传来的基本驱动。
K:But why do we… sorry, what were you…        克:但为什么我们……对不起,你刚才的意思是……
B:I was going to say they really haven't been transformed,        博:我想说其实并没有改变,
but I think you're meaning by transformed a fundamental change        但我想你的意思是,通过彻底的改变,
and not just a superficial change or a transfer        而不是肤浅的变化或是把攻击的目标
of the object of aggression from other individuals to other groups.        从其他个人转换为其他团体。
So, if you talk of transformation, you would say really        所以,如果你谈到转变,你会说
that they would benefit, more or less go away, right?        它们确实会带来某些益处,多多少少消失了,是不是?
That's as I understand it.        我是这么理解的。
S:Well, they'd be changed from one form to another.        谢:可是,它们只是从一种形式变到了另一种。
B:But I meant... S:That's what I mean.        博:但我的意思是……谢:那是我的意思。
B:I don't think that's the meaning        博:我认为那不是
which Krishnaji is using for the word 'transform,'        克里希那吉所指的“转变”的意思,
but essentially can't we be free of them.        而是我们能不能从根本上从中解脱。
K:Yes. That's right. Sir, why do you divide,        克:是的,没错。先生,请容我问你,
if I may ask, society and me?        为什么你把社会和我分开?
As though society were something outside which is influencing me,        好像社会是个外在的东西,是它在影响我,
conditioning me, but my parents, grandparents, so on,        制约我,但是我的父母、祖父母等等,
past generations, have created that society,        过去的祖祖辈辈创造了那个社会,
so I am part of that society. I am society.        所以我是那个社会的一部分。我就是社会。
S:Well, yes. K:Why do we separate it?        谢:哦,是的。克:为什么我们把它分开?
S:I think the reason why we separate it is that        谢:我认为我们分开它的原因是,
there are different kinds of society.        有各种不同的社会。
If I'd been born in India instead of in England,        如果我生在印度而不是英国的话,
I would have grown up in a very different way...        我的成长道路会非常不一样……
K:Of course. S:...with different set of attitudes.        克:当然。谢:……会有一套不同的生活态度。
S:And because we can think of ourselves growing up        谢:因为我们可以想象我们在
in different kinds of societies - and we'd be different if we had -        不同的社会中长大——如果那样我们就会不一样——
that's why in thought, I think, we have the idea that society and me        我认为,这就是为什么我们的思想认为社会和我
are not exactly the same. We'd always be in one society        并不是完全相同的东西。我们永远生活在社会中,
or another, so society as a whole, all societies taken together,        不是这个就是那个,所以社会作为一个整体,所有的社会合起来,
we would only exist within society,        我们只能生存于社会中,
but any particular society        但任一特定的社会,
is in a sense an accident of our birth or upbringing.        在某种意义上,只是我们的出生或成长的一种偶然。
K:But even that society is part of us.        克:但即使那个社会也是我们的一部分。
S:Oh, yes. I mean through growing up in it,        谢:噢,是的。我的意思是,因为成长于其中,
it becomes part of us, and we become part of it.        它变成了我们的一部分,而我们也变成了它的一部分。
K:But, I want to abolish this idea in discussion,        克:但是,我想在讨论中消除这个观点,
this separation from me and society.        这种分开我和社会的观点。
I am society, I am the world.        我就是社会,我就是世界。
I am the result of all these influences, conditionings,        我就是这一切影响、制约的结果。
whether in the East or in the West, or in South, or North,        不管是在东方还是西方、南方还是北方,
it's all part of conditioning. S:Yes.        都是制约的一部分。谢:是的。
K:So, we are attacking the conditioning,        克:所以,我们在攻击制约,
not where you are born, or East, or West.        而不是你出生的地方,东方或者西方。
S:Oh, yes. The problem would be conditioning of every kind,        谢:噢,是的。问题在于各种制约,
our biological conditioning, our conditioning from society.        我们的生物性制约,来自社会的制约。
K:That's right. S:Yes.        克:没错。谢:是的。
K:So, personally, I don't separate myself from society, I am society.        克:所以,我个人不把我自己和社会分开,我就是社会。
I have created society through my anxiety,        我用我的焦虑、
through my desire for security,        我对安全的渴望、
through my desire to have power, and so on, so on, so on.        我对权力的欲望等等等等,制造了这个社会。
Like the animal. It's all biologically inherited.        就像动物。这些都是生物性遗传。
And also, my own individualistic activity        还有,我自身的利己主义活动
has created this society.        制造了这个社会。
So, I am asking, I am conditioned in that way -        所以,我要问,我被这样制约着——
is it not possible to be free of it? Free of my conditioning?        可不可能从中解脱?从我的制约中解脱?
If you say it's not possible, then it's finished.        如果你说不可能,那就结束了。
S:Well, I would say first that it's not possible to be free        谢:哦,我首先会说要从全部制约中解脱
of all of the conditioning. I mean, certain of it is necessary        是不可能的。我的意思是,某些制约是生物性上的必然,
biologically, the conditioning that makes my heart beat...        促使我的心脏跳动的制约……
K:Ah, well... S:...my lungs operate, and all that.        克:啊,呃……谢:……我的肺在运作,等等。
K:I admit all that.        克:这些我都接受。
S:Now, then, the question is, how far can you take that?        谢:那么,问题就是,你可以接纳多少?
The necessary conditioning.        必然的制约。
K: Mr. Hidley was saying - that's his whole point -        克:希德利博士说——他的整个观点是——
I am conditioned to suffer, psychologically. Right, sir?        心理上,我有受苦的制约。对吗,先生?
H:Yes.        希:是的。
K:Or I am conditioned to go through great conflict in my relationship        克:或者在人际关系中,我经受着与妻子、父亲等等之间
with my wife, or father, whatever it is.        的剧烈冲突,那也是我的制约。
And you are saying, either we investigate into that        而你说,我们要么探究问题
and free ourselves from that, or accept it and modify it.        并从中解脱,要么接受它、改善它。
H:That's right.        希:没错。
K:Now, which is it? That's what I want -        克:那么,是哪一个?那就是我想知道的——
which is it, as a psychologist, you maintain?        作为一个心理学家,你主张哪一个?
If I may put such a question to you.        请容我这样问你。
H:Yes.        希:好。
Well, I think generally the approach is to attempt to modify it,        哦,我认为一般的方法是试图改善它,
to help the patient to make it work more effectively.        协助病人使之更有效地运作。
K:Why?        克:为什么?
I hope you don't mind my asking these questions.        希望你不介意我问这些问题。
H:No. I think that part of the reason for that is that        希:不介意。我认为那样做的部分原因是,
it's seen as biological and therefore fixed.        那被看成是生物性的,因此是固定的。
A person is born with a certain temperament.        人天生带着某种性格气质。
His drives are the drives of the animal, and I think also,        他的驱动是动物的驱动,我也这么认为,
because it isn't clear to the therapists,        因为治疗师并没有认清,
that the problem can be dealt with as a whole,        可以把问题作为一个整体来着手处理。
it is clear that it can be dealt with as particulars.        他们只知道,可以特定问题特定处理。
K:Is it... I am not asking an impudent question, I hope.        克:是不是……我希望我的问题不是在冒犯。
H:Okay.        希:尽管问。
K:Is it the psychologists don't think holistically?        克:是不是因为心理学家思考问题没有从整体着眼?
Our only concern is solving individual problems.        我们只关心解决个别问题。
H:Yes, they are concerned with solving individual problems.        希:是的,他们只关心解决个别问题。
K:So, therefore they are not thinking of human suffering as a whole.        克:因此他们不把人类的痛苦作为一个整体来看待。
H:Right.        希:没错。
K:A particular suffering of X who is very depressed.        克:某个人的特定痛苦是心情非常抑郁。
H:Right. For particular reasons.        希:对。因为某些特定的原因。
K:For particular reasons. We don't enquire into what is depression,        克:因为某些特定的原因。我们不探究什么是抑郁,
why human beings all over the world are depressed.        为什么全世界的人都抑郁。
H:Or we don't try and tackle that as a single problem.        希:或者我们不尝试把它当做单独的一个问题来处理。
We try and tackle it with this particular individual who comes in.        我们只把它当做进来咨询的那个特定的人的问题来处理。
K:Therefore you are still really, if I may point out - I may be wrong…        克:因此你确实仍然,如果我可以指出来的话——也许我说错了……
H:Yes.        希:尽管说。
K:You are emphasising his particular suffering and so sustaining it.        克:你在强调他特定的痛苦,因此延续了那种痛苦。
H:Now, can we get clear on that?        希:好,我们能不能把这点说清楚?
K:I come to you. H:Yes.        克:我来找你看病。希:嗯。
K:I am depressed. H:Yes.        克:我抑郁。希:嗯。
K:For various reasons which you know.        克:因为你知道的各种原因。
H:Yes.        希:嗯。
K:And you tell me, by talking to me, etc.        克:然后你告诉我,你跟我谈话,诸如此类。
- you know, the whole business of coming to you, and all that -        ——你知道的,找你看病的这整件事,诸如此类的事情——
you tell me my depression is the depression of the world.        你告诉我,我的抑郁就是世界的抑郁。
H:Yes, I don't tell you that. I tell you that your depression…        希:是的,我没有那样告诉你。我告诉你,你的抑郁……
K:When you tell me that, are you not helping me to carry on        克:如果你那样说,你不是在帮我持续
with this individualistic depression?        这种个人的抑郁吗?
And therefore my depression, not your depression.        因此我的抑郁,并不是你的抑郁。
H:Yes.        希:是的。
K:It's my depression, which I either cherish or want to dissolve.        克:那是我的抑郁,我要么非常看重,要么想要消除它。
H:Yes.        希:是的。
K:Which means I am only concerned with myself.        克:这表示我只关心我自己。
H:Yes. K:Myself - I come back to that.        希:是的。克:我自己——又回到这个话题了。
H:Yes, it's within the context of yourself.        希:是的,那就在你自己的范畴之内。
K:Self. H:Yes.        克:自我。希:是的。
K:So you are helping me to be more selfish, if I may...        克:所以你在帮我变得更自私,如果我可以……
H:Yes.        希:没错。
K:More self-concerned, more self-committed.        克:更自私自利,更沉溺于自我。
H:It is approached within the context of the self,        希:用自我的背景来处理问题,
but I would think that I am helping you        但我会以为我是在帮你
to be less self-concerned,        少一点自私,
because when you are not depressed,        因为当你不抑郁的时候,
then you don't have to be self-concerned.        你就不需要太关注自我了。
You feel better and you're able to relate to people more.        你感觉好多了,你能跟他人有更多的联系。
K:But again, on a very superficial level.        克:但还是在一个非常肤浅的层面。
H:Meaning that I leave the self intact.        希:意味着我让那个自我原封未动。
K:Intact. H:Yes.        克:原封未动。希:是的。
B:Yes, well, I feel that people generally wouldn't accept this        博:是的,不过,我感觉人们不会接受这一点的,
that the self is not there, which is what you're implying        即自我并不存在,你的意思就是这样,
that the self is rather unimportant.        你说自我毫不重要。
But rather the assumption is that the self is really there,        但假设自我确实存在,
and it has to be improved, and if you say...        而且它需要得到改善,而如果你说……
K:That's it, that's it.        克:对,对。
B:A certain amount of self-centredness        博:适度的自我中心,
people would say is normal. K:Yes, sir.        人们会说那是正常的。克:是的,先生。
B:It's only to keep it within reason, right?        博:只要维持在合理的限度内,对吧?
H:Right.        希:没错。
K:Modify selfishness, right?        克:对自私做些调整,对吗?
Continue with selfishness, but go slow.        继续自私,但走得慢一点。
B:But I think, you're saying something which is very radical then,        博:不过我想,你所讲的东西是非常彻底的,
because very few people have entertained        因为很少人喜欢
the notion of no self-centredness.        完全没有自我中心的概念。
K:That's it.        克:没错。
H:That's right; it isn't entertained.        希:是的;那不招人喜欢。
B:Maybe a few, but... H:Yes.        博:也许有一小部分人,不过……希:是的。
For biological reasons and because of the universality        由于生物性的原因以及这个现象的普遍性?
of the phenomenon? Because it isn't even seen as relevant, really.        因为看起来甚至没什么大不了的,真的。
B:I think most people feel that's the way things are,        博:我想大部分人觉得事情就是这样的,
it's the only way. H:Yes.        没有其他选择。希:是的。
K:That means status quo, modified status quo.        克:意思是现状,改良现状。
B:Yes. S:Yes.        博:是的。谢:是的。
K:To me that seems so irrational.        克:在我看来,那太荒谬了。
B:But you must feel that it's possible to be different, you see,        博:但是你一定感觉到,不一样的生活是可能的,你看到,
at least, more than feel, but in some sense        至少,不只是感觉到,而是在某种意义上,
there must be some reason why you say this.        你这么说一定是有原因的。
K:I'll tell you…What?        克:我会告诉你……什么?
B:Why you feel so different from other people about it.        博:为什么你跟其他人的看法如此不同。
K:It seems so practical, first of all.        克:首先,那似乎非常实际。
The way we live is so impractical -        我们的生活方式非常不实际——
the wars, the accumulation of armaments, is totally impractical.        战争,囤积军备,这些完全不实际。
B:But that wouldn't be an argument, because people say,        博:但那无可争议,因为人们说:
'We all understand that, but since that's the way we are,        “我们都理解,但既然我们是这样的,
nothing else is possible.'        已经没其他可能了。”
You see, you really are challenging the notion        你看,你实际上在挑战这个观念——
that that is the way we are, or we have to be.        我们就是这样的,或者我们不得不如此。
K:I don't quite follow this. We are what we are.        克:我不太明白这点。我们就是我们的样子。
B: People say, we are individual, separate,        博:人们说,我们是个体,彼此分离,
and we'll just have to fight and make the best of it.        我们必须争斗,必须尽己所能。
But you are saying something different,        但你不是那个意思,
you're not accepting that.        你不接受那一点。
K:All right. Don't accept it, but will you listen?        克:好的。不接受,但你会听吗?
Will the people who don't accept it,        不接受这一点的人,
will they give their minds to find out?        他们会用心搞清楚这个问题吗?
Right? H:Right.        是不是?希:嗯。
K:Or say, 'Please, we don't want to listen to you.'        克:或者说:“拜托,我们不想听你讲。”
This is what we think - buzz off. (Laughter)        这就是我们脑子里的念头——赶紧走开。(笑)
That's what most people do.        大多数人都那么做。
H:Well, this question isn't even raised usually.        希:哦,甚至通常都不会提出这个问题。
K:Of course.        克:当然。
H:Now why do you think that the self,        希:那么为什么你认为这个自我,
this selfish activity isn't necessary?        这个自私的活动是不必要的?
K:No, sir, first of all,        克:不是的,先生,首先,
do we accept the condition that we are in?        我们接受了我们所处的制约吗?
Do we accept it, and say, 'Please, we can only modify it,        我们接受了它并且说:“拜托,我们只能调整它,
and it can never be changed.'        它永远不可能改变。”
One can never be free from this anxiety,        人永远无法从这种焦虑、
deep depression; modify it, always, from agony of life.        这种深度的抑郁中解脱出来,总是从生活的痛苦之中调整着它。
You follow? This process of going through tortures in oneself.        理解吗?这个内心折磨的过程。
That's normal, accepted.        那是正常的,被接受了。
Modify it, live little more quietly, and so on, so on.        调整它,生活得稍稍平静些,等等等等。
If you accept that, there is no communication between us.        如果你们接受了那一点,我们之间就不存在交流了。
But if you say, I know my conditioning, I may perhaps, I may...        但如果你说,我知道我的制约,我可能,我也许……
tell me, let's just talk about whether one can be free from it.        告诉我,就让我们谈谈人是不是可能从中解脱。
Then we have a relationship,        这样我们之间就建立了联系,
then we can communicate with each other.        然后我们彼此之间就可以有交流。
But you say, sorry, shut the door in my face, and it's finished.        但你说,抱歉,在我面前把门摔上,然后就结束了。
S:So, there are some people who accept it, say, 'We can't change it.'        谢:所以,有些人接受了这一点,他们说:“我们改变不了。”
But there are other people, and I would say,        但另有些人,我会说,
some of the most inspiring leaders        世界上那些不同宗派的
of the different religions of the world are among them,        极其鼓舞人心的领袖,他们就是其中的一群,
who have said we can change it; there is a way beyond this.        他们说我们可以改变它,我们有一条出路。
K:Yes.        克:是的。
S:Now, since religions have wide followings,        谢:那么,既然宗教有着广泛的追随者,
and since their doctrines are widely dispersed,        既然他们的教规广泛传播,
there are in fact large numbers of people in our society,        实际上我们这个社会有大批人,
and in every society, who do think it can be changed.        而且在每个社会当中,都有人认为改变是可能的。
Because all religions hold out the prospect of change        因为所有的宗教都提出了改变的愿景,
and of going beyond this conditioning.        并主张超越制约。
K:Yes. But I would like to know, when you use the word 'religion,'        克:是的。但我想知道,你用“宗教”这个词,
is it the organised religion,        是指组织化的宗教?
is it the authoritarian religion,        是指独裁化的宗教?
is it the religion of belief, dogma, rituals, all that?        是指跟信仰、教条、仪式等有关的宗教吗?
S:Well... K:Or religion in the sense:        谢:呃……克:还是这个意义上的宗教:
the accumulation of energy to find        积累能量去发现
whether it is possible to be free.        自由是不是可能。
You understand my question?        你理解我的问题吗?
S:Yes. Well, I think the second, but I think that if we look        谢:理解。嗯,我认为是第二个,但是我想如果我们观察
into the history of the organised religions and people within them,        组织化宗教的历史和信仰这些宗教的人们,
we see that much of the inspiration for them was in fact        我们看到最鼓舞他们的实际上
that second kind of religion, which still within that framework,        是第二种宗教,它仍然在那个框架之中,
still survives, I think. But it's also something        仍然幸存着,我认为。但是它也
which has often been corrupted, and debased, and turned into        经常被侵蚀,被败坏,被变成
yet another set of dogmas, conditioning, and so on.        另一种教条和制约,诸如此类。
But I think within all religious traditions        但我认为在所有的宗教传统中,
this second kind of religion you talk about has been kept alive,        你所讲的这第二种宗教被保留了下来,
and I think that the impetus in all the great religions of the world        我认为世界上所有伟大宗教的动力,
has been that vision, it's then been debased        就是那个愿景,只是后来以各种形式
and degraded in various ways.        被败坏了,堕落了。
But this vision has never left any of these religions,        但这些宗教中的任何一个,从未放弃过这个愿景,
there are still people within them, I think, who still have it.        我认为,它们当中仍然有人怀抱着那个愿景。
And this is the inner light that keeps them going,        那就是支持他们前行的内心之光,
over and above the simple political part,        它超越了简单的派别之分,
and all the rest of it. K:I know, I know.        以及诸如此类的东西。克:我知道,我知道。
But suppose, a man like me rejects tradition.        但假设,有一个像我这样摒弃传统的人。
Rejects anything that has been said about truth,        拒绝一切关于真理、
about god, whatever it is, the other side.        关于上帝,或者关于不管什么,彼岸的说法。
I don't know; the other people say, 'Yes, we have this and that.'        我不知道;另一个人说:“是的,我们有这个有那个”。
So, how am I, as a human being who has really rejected all this        所以,我要怎样,作为真正摒弃了一切传统的人,
- tradition, the people who have said there is,        ——拒绝了那些说上帝存在的人,
and the people who have said that's all nonsense,        也拒绝了那些说那都是一派胡言的人,
people who have said we have found that it is, and so on, so on.        拒绝了那些说我们已经发现那是什么的人,等等等等。
If you wipe all that out and say, 'Look, I must find out        如果你把那一切都清除,你说:“注意,我必须搞清楚
- not as an individual -        ——不是作为个人——
can this truth, or this bliss, this illumination,        这个真理或者这种极乐、光明,
come without depending on all that?'        若不依赖那一切可不可以实现?”
You see, if I am anchored, for example, in Hinduism,        你看,如果我栖身于,比如,印度教,
with all the... - not the superficiality of it,        带着所有那些……——不是肤浅的那些东西,
not all the rituals and all the superstitions,        不是所有那些仪式和迷信,
if I am anchored in the religious belief of a Hindu,        如果我固着于一个印度教徒、一个真正的婆罗门
of a real Brahmin, I am always anchored, and I may go very far,        的宗教信仰中,我一直栖身其中,也许我会走得很远,
but I am anchored there. That is not freedom.        但我就是固着在了那里。那不是自由。
Because there must be freedom to discover this, or come upon this.        因为要发现或者邂逅这个东西,必须要有自由。
S:Yes.        谢:是的。
K:Sir, we are going little bit too far?        克:先生,我们是不是有点离题了?
S:No, but I would then go back and say, well,        谢:没有,不过我会倒过来说,哦,
you put forward the question of a man who rejects all his traditions.        你提出的问题,指向的是一个摒弃了一切传统的人。
You said, let us suppose that I am a man        你说,让我们假设我是那个
who has rejected all these traditions.        摒弃了这一切传统的人。
I would then say, well, what reason do you have        那么我会问,那,你有什么理由
for rejecting all these traditions in such a way?        这样摒弃一切传统?
H:Well, that seems to be part of the problem that we've arrived at.        希:哦,似乎这就是我们遇到的问题的一部分。
We have said that man is conditioned biologically        我们说过,人类具有生物性制约,
and socially by his family. The tradition is part of that.        以及家庭带来的社会性制约,传统就是那种制约的一部分。
We've said that that's the problem that we're up against now.        我们说过,那就是我们现在面临的问题。
Is it possible for him to change his nature,        他可不可能改变自己的天性,
or do we have to deal with each of these problems particularly        还是我们必须个别地处理我们
as they come up?        遇到的每一个问题?
S:Well, what I was saying is that the inner core        谢:哦,我刚才说,世界上一切伟大宗教
of all the great religions of the world is a vision        的内在核心就是这个愿景,
of this possibility of a transformation,        就是这个转变的可能性,
whether it's called salvation, or liberation, or nirvana, or what.        不管是叫做救赎、解脱、涅槃还是其他什么。
There's this vision.        有这个愿景存在。
Now, there have always been people within those religions,        那么,在这些宗教中总是有一群人,
who've had this vision and lived this vision; now...        他们已经实现了这个愿景,已经活在了这个愿景中;那么……
K:Ah! Sorry. Go on, I'm sorry.        克:啊!抱歉。继续,抱歉。
S: Perhaps part of your radical rejection of all religions        谢:也许你彻底拒绝一切宗教
involves denying that. But if so, I would say, why?        也包括否定那一点。但如果是这样,我会问,为什么?
Why should we be so radical as to deny...        为什么我们连这个也这么彻底地否定……
K:I question whether they really - I may be sacrilegious, may be        克:我质疑他们是不是真的——我也许亵渎神明,我也许是
an infidel, non-believer -        异教徒,怀疑主义者——
I wonder if I am anchored to a certain organised belief,        我想知道,如果我固着于某个组织化的信仰中,
whether I can ever find the other.        我是不是还能找到另一个东西。
If I am a Buddhist, for example,        如果我是个佛教徒,举个例子,
I believe that the Buddha is my saviour.        我相信佛陀是我的救世主。
Suppose, I believe that,        假设我相信那个,
and that has been told to me from childhood,        我从小就被这样告知,
my parents have been Buddhists, and so on, so on, so on.        我的父母就是佛教徒,如此等等。
And as long as I have found        而只要我从
that security in that idea,        那个观点或者那个信仰、
or in that belief, in that person,        那个人之中找到了安全感,
there is no freedom.        就不存在自由。
S:No, but it's possible that you can move beyond that framework,        谢:没有自由,但你有可能从那个框架中超越出来,
starting from within it, you can move beyond it.        从那里面开始,你可以从中超越。
K:That means I wipe out everything.        克:那意味着我清除了一切。
S:It means you wipe it out, but there's a difference between        谢:它意味着清除一切,但是一开始
an approach where you wipe it out from the beginning...        就清除的方式……
K:From the beginning, I am talking.        克:一开始,我是这么说的。
S:...and an approach where you start within it and go beyond it.        谢:……和在其中开始再从中超越的方式是不一样的。
K:You see that - wait, wait; yes, I know, the well-worn argument.        克:你看——等一下,等一下;是的,我知道,那个老生常谈的说法。
Which is important, breaking down all the barriers at the beginning,        重要的是,从一开始就打破一切障碍,
not at the end.        而不是在最后。
I am a Hindu, I see what Hinduism is        我是个印度教徒,我看到印度教
- a lot of superstition, you know, all the rest of it -        ——充斥着迷信,你知道的,诸如此类的东西。
and why should I go through number of years to end it,        那我为什么要折腾很多年去结束它,
why can't I finish it the first day?        为什么我不在第一天就终结它?
S:Because I think you'd have to reinvent and rediscover        谢:因为我认为,如果你不一开始就结束它,
for yourself a great many things that you would be able        你自己就需要重新发明、重新发现很多事情,
to get through more quickly if you didn't.        而那些事情你本可以更快地消化掉。
K:No. His question is...        克:不。他的问题是……
I am a living human being in relationship with him or with her.        我是一个活着的人,我跟他或她有某种关系。
In that relationship I am in conflict.        在那关系中,我身陷冲突。
He says, don't go about religion and illumination,        他说,不要去找宗教、启迪、
and nirvana, and all the rest of it.        涅槃,诸如此类的东西。
Transform this, live rightly here, then the door is open.        改变这种情况,正确地生活,然后那扇门就会打开。
S:Yes, but surely, isn't that easier said than done?        谢:是的,但显然,说比做容易,不是吗?
K:I know! I know it's easier said than done, therefore let's find out.        克:我知道!我知道说起来很轻松,因此让我们来搞清楚。
Let me find out with him, or with you, or with her,        让我来跟他、跟你或跟她一起
how to live in this world without conflict.        搞清楚怎样活在这个世界上却不陷入冲突。
Right, sir?        对吗,先生?
H:That's what we're asking.        希:那就是我们在问的问题。
K:Can I find out, or is that impossible?        克:我能搞清楚吗,还是那是不可能的?
H:We don't know.        希:我们不知道。
K:No. Therefore we start - we don't know.        克:不知道。因此我们从这里开始吧——我们不知道。
H:Okay.        希:好的。
K:So let's enquire into that.        克:那么,让我们探究那个问题。
Because if my relationship with life is not right        因为如果我跟生活的关系不正确
- right in quotes for the moment -        ——正确这个词暂时用引号——
how can I find out something that's immensely beyond all this?        我怎么能搞清楚完全超越了这一切的东西?
Beyond time, beyond thought, beyond measure.        超越了时间,超越了思想,超越了衡量。
I can't.        我办不到。
'Till we have established right relationship between us,        “在我们建立起彼此之间正确的关系,
which is order, how can I find that which is supreme order?        即秩序之前,我怎么能发现什么是终极秩序?
So I must begin with you, not with that.        所以我必须从你开始,而不是从那个东西开始。
I don't know if you are meeting me.        不知道你明不明白我的意思。
S:No, I would have thought that you could easily argue        谢:不是的,我在想你可以很容易
the other way around. K:Of course, of course! (Laughs)        反过来讲。克:当然,当然!(笑)
S:Until you have that, you can't get this right,        谢:除非你拥有了那个东西,否则你不可能活得正确,
because the whole history of man shows that starting just from...        因为整个人类历史显示出那个东西正是开始于……
K:Ah! Therefore you invent that.        克:啊!因此你发明了那个东西。
You invent something illogical,        你发明了不合逻辑的东西,
may not be true; may be just invention of thought,        它可能不是真的;可能只是思想的臆造,
and you imagine that to be order        而你想象那就是秩序,
and hope that order will filter into you.        并且希望那个秩序会慢慢渗透你。
And it seems so illogical, irrational,        那似乎很不合逻辑、不合理,
whereas this is so rational.        然而这个却是那么合理。
S:But is it possible? K:That is it! Let's find out.        谢:但可能吗?克:对了!我们来搞清楚。
S:But you've now completely reversed your argument to start with.        谢:但你现在完全颠倒了你一开始的观点。
He started with the patient coming to the psychiatrist's office,        他开始说的是,一个病人来看精神科医生,
who wants to get his relationships right,        他想要有正确的关系,
get the human relationships out of this state of disorder        想要让人际关系从混乱和冲突状态中脱离出来,
and conflict into something that's more tolerable.        变得更加容易接受。
K:I'm not sure this way - forgive me, Doctor, if I'm blundering        克:我不确定这种方式——博士,恕我冒昧地
into where the angels fear to tread (laughter),        胆大妄为(笑),
I question whether they are doing right.        我质疑他们做法的正确性。
S:But they're doing just what you said now        谢:但他们在做的就是你所说的啊,
starting with the relationship, not going into these bigger questions.        从关系开始,不去探究这些大问题。
K:But I question whether they are really concerned        克:但我质疑,他们是不是真的有兴趣
with bringing about a right relationship between human beings,        实现人与人之间的正确关系,
fundamentally, not superficially,        从根本上而言的,而不是表面的,
just to adjust themselves for the day.        不只是暂时调整一下自己。
H:I don't think that you're denying that larger questions        希:我认为你并不否认其中涉及到
are involved in that, you are just saying that we shouldn't have...        那些大问题,你只是说我们不应该抱有……
invent ideas about what a solution would be like.        就解决方案发明出一些观念。
K:Yes. I come to you with my problem -        克:是的。我带着我的问题来找你——
I cannot get on with somebody,        我跟某个人处不好,
or I am terribly depressed,        或者我极度抑郁,
or something dishonest in me,        或者我内心不诚实,
I pretend. I come to you.        我假装。我来找你。
You are concerned to tell me 'Become more honest.'        你关心的是,告诉我“变得诚实一点”。
H:Yes.        希:是的。
K:But not find out what is real honesty.        克:而不是搞清楚什么是真正的诚实。
H: Don't we get into the problem of creating        希:这样的话,我们不是在
the idea of real honesty at this point?        制造一个“真正的诚实”的观念吗?
K:No. It's not an idea. I am dishonest.        克:不是的。这不是一个观念。我不诚实。
H:Yes.        希:嗯。
K:You enquire, why are you dishonest? H:Yes.        克:你探询,为什么你不诚实?希:嗯。
K:Go... penetrate into it, disturb me. Don't pacify me.        克:来……深入进去,触动我。不要安抚我。
H:Yes.        希:嗯。
K: Don't help me to say, well, be a little more honest,        克:不要促使我说,哦,我要更诚实一点,
and a little more this or that, but shake me        或是更这样一点,更那样一点,而是震撼我,
so that I find out what is real honesty.        让我去弄明白什么是真正的诚实。
H:Okay, that's...        希:好的,那是……
K:I may break away from my conditioning, from my wife,        克:我可能会脱离我的制约,脱离跟我妻子、
from my parents - anything.        跟我父母的关系——任何东西。
You don't disturb me.        你没有触动我。
H:No, that's... K:That's just my point.        希:不,那是……克:那就是我的观点。
H:I do disturb you. K: Partially.        希:我确实触动你了。克:只是局部地。
H:Well, what...        希:哦,什么……
K:You disturb me not to conform to little adjustments.        克:你对我的触动不是仅仅稍微调整一下。
H:Well, let's look at that. K:Sorry.        希:那好,我们来看一下。克:抱歉。
H:I disturb you to conform to little adjustments.        希:我触动你,作出了一些小小的调整。
K:Yes.        克:是的。
K:You don't say to me, 'Look, you are dishonest, let's go into it.'        克:你没有对我说:“看,你不诚实,我们来好好探究一下。”
H:I do say that.        希:我就是这样说的。
K:No, but go into it, so that he is totally honest.        克:不够,而是要深入探究,那样他才能彻底诚实。
H:Well, how deeply do I need to go into it,        希:那么,我需要探究得多深入,
so that I have disturbed you totally?        才能彻底地触动你?
K:Yes. So you tell me. Do it now, sir.        克:好。所以由你来告诉我。现在就来,先生。
H:Okay. You come in, and in our talks we notice that the thing        希:好吧。你来找我,谈话的过程中我们发现,
that you are up to is that you are always trying        你的问题在于,你总是想
to find some other person to make your life be whole.        找一个人来让自己的生命完整。
K:Yes. I depend on somebody. H:Yes, deeply.        克:是的。我依赖某个人。希:是的,依赖很深。
K: Deeply. H:And you don't even know that.        克:很深。希:你甚至都不知道。
K:Yes.        克:是的。
H:So I disturb you. I tell you that that's what's going on,        希:所以我触动你。我告诉你事情的状况,
and I show you you're doing it with me.        让你看到你正在依赖我。
K:Yes.        克:是的。
H:I show you you're doing it with your husband.        希:让你看到你正在依赖你的丈夫。
K:Yes.        克:是的。
H:Now, is that sufficiently deep? K:No.        希:那么,这样够深层了吗?克:不够。
H:Why?        希:为什么?
K:What have you shown me?        克:你让我看到了什么?
A verbal picture...        口头的描述……
H:No, not verbal; not verbal. K:Wait, wait.        希:不,不是口头的;不是口头的。克:等一下,等一下。
H:Okay.        希:好。
K:Verbal picture, an argument,        克:口头的描述,一个观点,
a thing which tells me that I am dishonest.        说我不诚实。
Or whatever you tell me. That leaves me where?        不管你说我什么。那能让我怎样?
H:If it's verbal it just gives you more knowledge about yourself.        希:如果只是口头的论点,你只是对自己多知道一点罢了。
K:That's all. Knowledge about myself.        克:仅此而已。对我自己多了一些认识。
H:Yes. K:Will knowledge transform me?        希:是的。克:知识会让我改变吗?
H:No. K:No. Be careful, sir, careful.        希:不会。克:不会。小心,先生,小心。
Then why do I come to you?        那我为什么来找你?
H:Well, not so that I can give you knowledge.        希:哦,总不是为了让我塞给你一些知识。
You come thinking that maybe somehow I have some answers,        你来,是因为你以为我总会有些解决的办法吧,
because other people, because the society is set up...        因为别人,因为社会的设置……
K:Why don't you tell me, 'Old boy, do it yourself, don't depend on me.'        克:你为什么不说:“老兄,你自己来,不要依赖我。”
Go into it. Find out, stir.        探究它,去弄明白,搅个透。
H:Okay, I tell you that. I tell you, 'Go into it yourself.'        希:好,我就这么说。我说:“你自己去探究。”
And you say to me... K:I can't do it.        然而你跟我说……克:我做不到。
H:I don't know what you're talking about.        希:我不明白你在说些什么。
K:That's just it. H:Yes.        克:确实如此。希:没错。
K:So, how will you help me to go into myself and not depend on you?        克:那么,你要怎么帮助我探究我自己,却又不对你产生依赖?
You understand my question? H:Yes.        了解我的意思吗?希:了解。
K: Please, I'm not the stage, the only actor.        克:拜托,我不是在表演,不是唯一的演员。
Sir, this is really a serious question.        先生,这个问题真的非常严肃。
How will you help me to go into myself so deeply,        你会怎样帮助我深入探究自身,
that I understand and go beyond. You know what I mean?        让我了解并超越自我。明白我的意思吗?
H:No, I don't follow what you mean.        希:不,不明白你的意思。
I understand how to help you go into it without depending on me.        我明白怎样帮助你探究自身,却不对我产生依赖。
K:I don't want to depend on you. I don't want to depend on anybody.        克:我不想依赖你。我不想依赖任何人。
H:Okay. I can help you do that. We can discover together        希:好。我可以帮你这么做。我们可以一起来发现
that you are depending on me,        你在依赖我,
but I don't know how deeply this has to go.        不过我不知道这能达到多深的层面。
K:So you have to enquire into dependence.        克:所以你得研究一下“依赖”。
H:Okay. K:Why am I depending?        希:好的。克:我为什么依赖?
Security. H:Yes.        因为安全感。希:没错。
K:Where is security? Is there such thing as security?        克:哪里有安全?存在“安全”这种东西吗?
H:Well, I have these experiences as I grew up        希:哦,我成长的过程中有一些这样的体验,
that taught me what security is.        它们让我知道了什么是安全。
K:Yes, which is what? A projected idea.        克:是的,那是什么?一个投射出来的观点。
H:Yes. K:A principle.        希:是的。克:一个原则。
H:Yes. K:A belief, a faith,        希:是的。克:一个信仰、信念、
a dogma, or an ideal, which are all projected by me,        信条或者一个理想,全都是我的投射,
or by you, and I accept those. But they're unreal.        或者你的投射,而我接受了。但它们是虚幻的。
H:Okay. K:So, can I push those away?        希:好的。克:所以,我可以抛开那些吗?
H:Yes. And then you are not depressed.        希:是的。然后你就不会抑郁了。
K:Ah! I am dependent and therefore I get angry,        克:啊!因为依赖外物,所以我生气、
jealousy, all the rest of it. That dependence makes me attached,        嫉妒,如此等等。依赖令我执着,
and in that attachment there is more fear, there is more anxiety,        而执着滋生了更多的恐惧、更多的焦虑、
there is more... - you follow? H:Yes.        更多的……理解吗?希:理解。
K:So, can you help me to be free or find out what is true security?        克:所以,你可以帮助我从中解脱吗?或者帮我弄明白什么是真正的安全?
Is there a deep abiding security?        有没有永恒深远的安全?
Not in furniture, not in a house,        不在家具中,不在房子中,
not in my wife, or in some idea        不在我的妻子身上或者某个观念中
- find deeply if there is such thing as complete security.        ——去深入探究一下,看看彻底的安全是否存在。
Sorry, I'm taking all this…        抱歉,一直是我在谈……
H:So you're suggesting that if I simply work on this with you,        希:所以你提出的观点是,如果我只是简单地跟你讨论,
and you come to understand that you're dependent,        于是你了解到你在依赖,
that that's not sufficient,        但那还不够,
because you won't have discovered any abiding security.        因为你找不到任何永恒的安全。
K:No. Because that's all I want.        克:不是的。因为我要的就是安全。
I've sought security in this house,        我在这所房子里寻找安全,
and it doesn't, there's no security.        但它并无安全可言。
I've sought security in my wife,        我在妻子身上寻找安全,
there isn't any; I change to another woman,        也没有找到;我换另一个女人,
but there isn't any either. Then I find security in a church,        但还是没有。然后我就在教堂里寻找安全,
in a god, in a belief, in a faith, in some other symbol.        在上帝、信念、信仰中,在某些符号中寻找。
You see what is happening? You are all externalising,        你看到是怎么一回事了吗?你一直在外求,
if I can use that word,        如果我可以用那个词的话,
giving me security in things in which there is no security        在从外物中给我安全,而其中并无任何安全可言
- in nations, all the rest of it.        ——在国家中,诸如此类。
Could you help us to find out if there is        你能不能帮我们搞清楚是否存在
complete security which is unshakeable?        一种不可动摇的彻底安全?
S:Are you suggesting that this is one of our most fundamental needs,        谢:你是不是说,这是我们最根本的需求之一、
driving activities? K:I should think so.        最根本的驱动行为之一?克:我认为是这样的。
S:So indeed it's a fundamental question        谢:那么这确实是一个根本性的问题,
as to whether this sense of abiding        即有没有这种
unshakeable security is possible. K:Yes. Yes.        不可动摇的永恒的安全感。克:是的。是的。
Because if once you have that there is no problem any more.        因为一旦你拥有了,就不再有任何问题。
H:But this isn't clear, because then is it the individual that has that?        希:但这点并不清楚,因为那样的话拥有那种安全感的是个人吗?
K:No. Individual can never have that security.        克:不是。个人永远无法拥有那种安全感。
Because he is in himself divisive.        因为他自身是分裂的。
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