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The Nature of the Mind 2 心的本质2

H: The Nature of the Mind        希:心的本质
Part Two        第二部分
Psychological Suffering        心理痛苦
This is one of a series of dialogues between J Krishnamurti,        这是J•克里希那穆提、
David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake, and John Hidley.        大卫•博姆、鲁伯特•谢尔德雷克以及约翰•希德利之间的系列对话之一。
The purpose of these discussions is to explore        这些讨论旨在探索最根本的
essential questions about the mind,        心灵问题,
what is psychological disorder,        即何为心理失序,
and what is required for fundamental psychological change.        以及彻底的心理转变需要什么。
J Krishnamurti is a religious philosopher, author, and educator,        J•克里希那穆提是一位宗教哲人、作家、教育家,
who has written and given lectures on these subjects for many years.        他多年来就这些问题著书立说并进行演讲。
He has founded elementary and secondary schools        他在美国、英国和印度
in the United States, England, and India.        建立了几所小学和中学。
David Bohm is professor of theoretical physics        大卫•博姆是理论物理学教授,
at Birkbeck College, London University in England.        就职于英国伦敦大学的伯克贝克学院。
He has written numerous books concerning theoretical physics        他著有多部著作,论述理论物理学
and the nature of consciousness.        以及意识的本质。
Professor Bohm and Mr. Krishnamurti        博姆教授与克里希那穆提先生,
have held previous dialogues on many subjects.        之前曾就很多问题进行过对话。
Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, whose recently published book        鲁伯特•谢尔德雷克是一位生物学家,新近发表了一部著作,
proposes that learning in some members of a species        提出一个物种中部分成员的学习过程
affects the species as a whole.        将会影响整个物种。
Dr. Sheldrake is presently consulting plant physiologist        谢尔德雷克博士现在担任
to the International Crops Research Institute        位于印度海得拉巴的国际农作物研究所的
in Hyderabad, India.        顾问植物生理学家。
John Hidley is a psychiatrist in private practice,        约翰•希德利是一名个人执业的精神病医生,
who has been associated with the Krishnamurti school        与位于加利福尼亚欧亥的克里希那穆提学校
in Ojai, California for the past six years.        六年来一直联系密切。
In the first dialogue the nature of the self was discussed,        在第一次谈话中,讨论了自我的本质,
its relationship to suffering, to society, and to religion.        它跟痛苦、跟社会以及宗教的关系。
Questions raised were, can one discover or learn        提出来的问题是,我们能不能发现或认识
about these relationships,        这些关系,
and is the need for psychological security the root of the problem?        对心理安全的需求是不是问题的根源所在?
Today's discussion continues with these questions.        今天会继续讨论这些问题。
H: We talked yesterday, we started with the question of        希:我们昨天一开始谈到了
the origin and nature of psychological disorder,        心理失序的肇始和本质问题,
and we suggested that it has its roots in self-centred activity,        我们认为,其根源在于自我中心的行为,
which is divisive and conflictual in nature,        这种行为本质上是分裂的、冲突的,
and that biologically such factors as instinctual aggression        而从生物学上来讲,本能的侵略性、
and dominance drives, the facts of illness and death, all contribute.        渴求支配的驱动、疾病和死亡的现实,这些因素都促成了这一行为。
I wondered if we could start this morning, David,        大卫,不知今天早上我们能不能
by having you comment on relationship        让你先谈谈这些生物学因素
between these biological factors and psychological security.        和心理安全之间的关系。
B: Yes, well, biologically, if you begin with the animal,        博:可以。嗯,在生物学上,如果从动物开始,
you have all sorts of things like fear, and anger,        你有各种像恐惧、愤怒
and aggression, and they're fairly simple.        以及好斗之类的特征,那显而易见。
They exist for a short period while the fact is there,        它们存在了一段不长的时期,那期间事实确实如此,
and then they generally disappear, leaving little trace.        然后它们通常消失了,没留下什么痕迹。
There may be a few cases in the higher animals        在高等动物界,可能有些动物
where there's some memory,        有一些记忆,
but it's in man that the memory becomes very significant,        但记忆变得至关重要,这发生在人类身上,
remembering all these experiences and anticipating the future,        记住所有的经验并预想未来,
you get a very different sort of behaviour.        你就会有一种截然不同的行为。
For example, with an animal, he might have a bad experience        比如,一个动物,它跟另一个动物
with another animal, and shortly afterward        可能有过不愉快的相处经验,但过后很快
he'll be in fairly good state of equilibrium,        它就会处于一种相当良好的平衡状态,
but, say, we have a quarrel between two groups,        但我们人类,比如两个团体之间出现争吵,
as in Northern and Southern Ireland,        像南北爱尔兰那样,
this has been going on for 350 years,        持续了350年,
and there is a specific effort to remember it        而且你可以看到,那种特意记住它的努力
which you can see going on.        也在继续。
And I think this is the biggest difference.        我想这就是最大的不同。
H: Memory being the...        希:记忆是……
B: Yes, the effect of memory, the consequences of memory.        博:是的,记忆的作用,记忆的影响。
You see, memory by itself would obviously not cause any trouble,        你看,记忆本身显然不会带来任何问题,
because it's only a fact, right?        因为那只是事实,对吧?
But memory has consequenceS:  it may produce fear,        但记忆会产生影响:记住过去发生的事,
it may produce anger; it may produce all sorts of disturbances,        并预想未来会发生什么,它可能会制造恐惧,
to remember what did happen and to anticipate what may happen.        它可能会制造愤怒,它可能会制造各种困扰。
S: You mean thinking about it? B: Yes. Based on memory, right?        谢:你的意思是心里想着它?博:是的。基于记忆,不是吗?
S: I mean, obviously the animal that's been attacked by another animal        谢:我的意思是,显然被另一个动物攻击的动物,
remembers in the sense that when it sees the other animal again,        它所谓的记忆在于,它再次看到那个动物时,
it's afraid. It probably doesn't think about it in between.        会害怕。在中间那段时间,它可能不会去想这件事。
B: Yes, it can't form an image, I don't believe        博:是的,它不会形成一个意象,我不相信
that most animals can form images of the other animals,        大部分动物对另外的动物能形成意象,
and I can base that on experience, that I have seen dogs        经验也告诉我,我看到过狗
fighting very hard, and as soon as they turn the corner,        打得很凶,可是才拐个弯儿的工夫,
the dog sort of forgets what happened.        那狗好像就忘了刚才的事。
He is disturbed but he doesn't know why he is disturbed.        它被打扰,但它不知道为什么被打扰。
Now, if he could remember the other dog after he turned the corner,        那么,如果它拐了个弯儿之后还能记得另一只狗,
he could continue the struggle over territory indefinitely.        它就会为了领地继续没完没了地打下去。
So, the point about territory is, the animal maintains it        所以,关于领地关键在于,动物对它的维护
in a certain limited context.        是在某个有限的范围之内。
But man remembers it,        但人类记着自己的领地,
and he maintains this territory indefinitely        他无限期地维护这块领地
and wants to extend it, and so on, because of his thinking about it.        并且意欲扩张它,诸如此类,因为他一直想着它。
S: So, are you suggesting that the basis of the specifically        谢:所以,你的看法是不是,人类那种特别的痛苦,
human kind of pain and suffering,        超越我们所看到的动物界的那种痛苦,
over and above the kind of suffering        其根本原因就在于
we see in the animal kingdom        这种记忆的能力,
is this ability to remember, to brood over it, think about this?        对它牵肠挂肚,念念不忘?
B: Yes, the animal may have some of that.        博:是的。动物可能也有一点这样。
I've seen examples on television of a deer who lost its doe,        我在电视上看到过这种例子,一头雄鹿失去了它的雌鹿,
and it was pining away in the wild, but I think it's limited,        它在野外日显憔悴,但我认为其程度是有限的,
that is, there is some suffering of that kind in the animal world,        就是说,动物界在某个程度上存在那种痛苦,
but with man it's enormously expanded, it seems limitless.        至于人类,那痛苦就扩张得极其严重了,似乎是没有边的。
Yes, I think the major point is that with man        是的,我认为关键点在于,涉及到人类的话,
the thing can build up like a tremendous explosion        那件事情可以像一次大爆炸,
that fills his whole mind, and it can become        充满他的整个头脑,
the major motive in life, to remember the insult        家族中好几代下来,对侮辱的记忆,
and to revenge the vendetta,        报仇雪恨的念头,
in families over many generations.        可以成为生活的主要动力。
To remember the bad experience you had with somebody        牢记跟别人的不愉快经历,
and to be frightened of what's coming like the examination        害怕将要来临的事,比如小孩子可能会怕
that the child may be frightened of, or something like that.        考试或者类似的事情。
K: But have you answered his question, sir?        克:但你回答他的问题了吗,先生?
B: Which is? K: Which was...        博:哪个问题?克:那个……
H: How does the biological fact of illness, or death,        希:疾病或死亡的生物学事实,
or instinctual drive result in a psychological problem or disorder?        或者本能驱动是怎样引起心理问题或心理失序的?
B: By thinking about it. I say that the biological fact        博:通过对这个问题的思考,我觉得生物学事实
is not a serious problem, in the long run,        并无大碍,从长远来看,
but as soon as you begin to think about it,        不过你一旦开始想这件事,
and not merely think about it, but make images about it        不只是想,而且还随着念头制造
along with that thought, and to revive the memory        意象,重温记忆
and anticipate the feeling of the future,        并且还预期将来的感觉,
and while you are thinking, then it becomes a very serious problem,        那么当你在想的时候,那就变成非常严重的问题,
because you can't stop it, you see.        因为你看,你停不下来了。
You will never attain security by thinking about it,        通过想这件事,你是永远得不到安全的,
but you are constantly seeking security.        然而你却不停地寻求安全。
You see, the purpose of thinking is to give you security        你看,在具体事务上,在技术性事务上,
in practical affairs, technical affairs.        “想”是为了给自己安全。
Now, therefore you are doing a similar sort of thinking        那么,你还是在同样地“想”着,
saying how can I be secure against the possibility of suffering again?        念叨着我怎样才能避免再次受苦的可能?
And there is no way to do that.        但那样是办不到的。
You may take technical steps to make it unlikely,        可能你会采取技术性步骤让事情不可能发生,
but as you think about it, you begin to stir up the whole system        但你想着它的时候,就开始搅乱整个系统,
and distort the whole mental process.        扭曲整个心理过程了。
H: Well, it seems clear that by thinking about it        希:哦,很明显我们在想的过程中,
we stir up the emotions and the associations        引发了情感和联想,
that are those thoughts, but we're not suggesting        即那些想法,但我们的意思并不是
we shouldn't think about it, are we?        不可以想,对吧?
B: Well, it depends on how you think about it.        博:哦,那得看你怎么想了。
This thinking gets to be directed toward giving you        这种想是要给你一种
a sense of security, you see, an image of security.        安全感,你看,一种安全的意象。
H: Right. I get hurt when I'm little, or some time along the line,        希:没错。我小时候或成长的某个时期受了伤害,
and it creates a fear in me, and I anticipate that kind of situation.        内心有了恐惧,我就会预想那种受伤的情况。
I may not even remember the incident,        可能我都已经忘了那件事,
but I want to avoid it in the future.        却想着以后要避免。
B: Yes, and now, the point is thiS:  the mind is always searching        博:是的,那么问题在于:头脑总是琢磨着
for how to avoid it, and searching out thoughts, images,        怎样避免,琢磨着各种念头、意象,
saying, that fellow is the one who did it,        念叨着:就是那个人干的,
I must keep away from him; coming to conclusions,        我必须离他远远的;形成各种结论,
and if any conclusion gives you an image of security,        如果任何结论能带给你一幅安全的图景,
then the mind holds on to it, right?        头脑就会紧抓不放,是不是?
Without actually any basis.        而实际上并没有任何根据。
H: Could you elaborate on that a little?        希:可以就这一点详细解释一下吗?
B: Well, if you have had a bad experience with somebody,        博:哦,比如你跟某人相处不快,
you may conclude that you should never trust him again, for example.        你就可能得出结论,你再也不该信任他。
Although that might be quite wrong.        虽然那也许完全错了。
But the mind is so anxious to have security that it will        但由于头脑急于获得安全,它就会
jump to the conclusion that it's not safe to trust him.        急着下结论:信任他,是不安全的。
Right? H: Yes.        对吧?希:是的。
B: Now, if you find somebody else who seems to treat you well,        博:那么,如果你发现别人看起来对你很好,
and reassures you, and flatters you, then you may        安慰你,讨好你,你就可能
jump to the conclusion you can completely trust him.        急着下结论:你可以完全信任他。
Now, the mind is now looking for thoughts        那么,头脑现在就在寻找
that will give it good feelings,        令它感觉舒服的想法,
because the feelings of the memory are so disturbing        因为记忆中的感觉对整个系统
to the whole system that its first function is to make the mind        造成很大的困扰,所以它首要的职能就是让头脑
feel better, rather than find out what is the fact.        感觉好一点,而不是弄清楚事实如何。
H: Okay, so you're saying that at this point the mind isn't interested        希:好,所以你是说这里的问题在于头脑对什么是真相
in what's true, it's interested in getting secure.        不感兴趣,它感兴趣的是得到安全。
B: Yes, it's so disturbed that it wants to come to order first,        博:是的,它太不安了,于是先要达成秩序,
and it's adopting a wrong way, as I see it.        而在我看来,它采用了一种错误的方式。
H: The wrong way being?        希:什么错误的方式?
B: To think about it and try to find thoughts        博:去想,去试图找到
that will make it feel better.        一些让它感觉舒服的想法。
H: So you're saying that thoughts themselves in some sense        希:所以你是说想法本身在某种意义上
are taking the place of reality, that the person is trying        取代了现实,那个人试图
to get certain thoughts in his head that make him feel better.        在他的头脑中得到某些让自己感觉舒服的想法。
B: Yes. And that's self-deception.        博:是的。那是自欺。
S: What makes you think that the primary drive is for security?        谢:你为什么认为主要的驱动是对安全的需要?
B: Oh, we discussed that yesterday, of course, but I wouldn't be sure        博:噢,我们昨天讨论过了,那是当然的,但我不确定
that's the only primary drive, but it's obvious, for the animal        那是唯一主要的驱动,但显然对动物来说,
it's a very important drive to want security, right?        想得到安全是非常重要的一个驱动,对吧?
We also want pleasure, I think that's another drive,        我们还想要快乐,我觉得那是另一个
which are closely related.        紧密相关的驱动。
S: But to come back to this question of security, in its limited forms        谢:但是回到这个安全的问题,在其有限的形式上,
security is clearly one goal that we have.        安全显然是我们的一个目标。
People like to have houses and have them secure, and cars,        人们喜欢拥有房子,拥有安全、车子、
and possessions, and bank balances, and that kind of thing.        财产,喜欢银行存款余额,那一类的东西。
But there's this factor that comes in, when you've got that,        不过如果你有了那样东西,这个因素就冒出来了,
there are two things, actually, that come in, one is maybe        实际上会出现两种情况,一种可能是会
the fear that you'll lose it, but the other is boredom        害怕失去,另一种则是厌倦了
with the whole thing and the craving for excitement and thrill.        所有的一切,渴望兴奋和刺激。
And this doesn't seem to fit within this model of this primary        这似乎不符合以安全为主要对象的
and central craving for security.        渴望模式。
B: Well, that's why I said it's only one of the drives, right?        博:是啊,那就是为什么我说那只是驱动之一,对吧?
That there's also the drive toward pleasure, as an example,        比如,还有对快乐的渴望,
much of what you said is included in the drive toward pleasure, right?        你说的情况大部分就属于快乐驱动的,不是吗?
S: I'm not so sure.        谢:我不太肯定。
B: Excitement is pleasurable, and people hope        博:兴奋是快乐的,有个规则就是人们渴望
for pleasure and excitement rather than pain, as a rule.        快乐和兴奋,而不是痛苦。
S: But don't you think there's a pleasure in itself in curiosity,        谢:但你不认为有种快乐本身是一种好奇,
and there's a sense of freedom in discovery that you can get        在某种探索中你取得了发现,
from certain kinds of exploration,        在那当中存在着一种自由感,
which is neither just straightforward pleasure,        那既不仅仅是简单直接的快乐,
it's not a repetitive kind of pleasure, nor is it security.        不是那种重复性的快乐,也不是安全。
B: Yes, well, I didn't want to say that all our drives are caught        博:是的,其实我说的并不是我们的全部驱动都限于
in this thing, I said that if you think about them        那个东西,我是说如果你想着它们,
and base them on memory, then they are going        让它们以记忆为基础,那么它们就会
to get caught in this problem.        陷入那个问题。
Now, there may be a natural, free interest in things        那么,也许存在一种对事物自然自如的兴趣,
which could be enjoyable, and that need not be a problem, right?        那也许是快乐的,那就不会成为一个问题,对吧?
But if you were to become dependent on it, and think about it, and say,        但如果你变得依赖它、牵挂它,你说:
'If I don't have it I become very unhappy,'        "如果没有它,我就会很不快乐,”
then it would be a similar problem.        那就是同样的问题了。
K: But could we go into the question, what is security?        克:不过我们可以来探究一下什么是安全吗?
What does that word convey?        那个词指的是什么?
Apart from physical security.        先不说身体上的安全。
S: I would have said invulnerability.        谢:我会说是不被伤害。
K: Not to be hurt.        克:不受伤害。
S: Not to be hurt at all, not to be able to be hurt.        谢:完全不受伤害,不能被伤害。
K: Not to be able to be hurt and not to hurt.        克:不能被伤害以及不伤害他人。
Physically we are all hurt one way or another        在身体上我们都因为这样那样的原因受过伤——
- operations, illness, and so on, so on.        手术、疾病等等等等。
When you talk about being hurt        你谈到被伤害时,
are you talking about psychological hurts?        指的是心理伤害吗?
H: Yes, I'm wondering how it is that        希:是啊,我想知道那是怎样一种情形,
when a person comes into my office,        当一个人进入我的办公室,
his complaint is his psychological hurts.        他抱怨的就是他的心理伤害。
K: How do you deal with it? H: I try and...        克:你怎么处理这种情况?希:我尝试……
K: Suppose, I come to you. I am hurt from childhood.        克:假设我来找你。我有童年的创伤。
H: Yes. K: I am hurt        希:嗯。克:我受到
by the parents, school, college, university.        父母、学校、学院、大学的伤害。
H: Yes.        希:嗯。
K: When I get married she says something, I am hurt.        克:我结婚后,她说的话伤害了我。
So, this whole living process seems to be a series of hurts.        所以,这整个生活过程似乎就是一系列的伤害。
H: It seems to build up a structure of self that is hurt,        希:似乎是在建立一个受伤的自我结构,
and a perception of reality that is inflicting hurt.        建立对造成伤害的现实的一种看法。
K: Yes. Now, how do you deal with it?        克:是的。那么,你怎么解决?
H: I try to help you see how you're doing it.        希:我尽力帮你看到你是怎么做的。
K: What do you mean, how I'm doing it?        克:我是怎么做的?什么意思?
H: Well, for example, if you have built up in you the notion        希:哦,比如,如果你建立了一个概念,
that you're one down,        你是一个失败者,
or that you're the victim,        或者你是一个牺牲品,
then you perceive yourself to be victimised,        于是你就会把自己看成是受害者,
and you perceive the world to be a victimiser.        而把世界看成施害者。
And I help you realise that that's what you're doing.        那么我就帮你认识到那就是你所做的事情。
K: But by showing me that, will I get rid of my hurt?        克:但是让我看到那些就能摆脱我的伤害吗?
My hurts, very deep unconscious hurts that I have        我的伤害,深层的无意识伤害,
make me do all kinds of peculiar actions,        让我做出各种怪事,
neurotic, isolating myself.        神经质的事情,孤立我自己。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
It appears that people get better,        当他们认识到他们在做什么,
that they realise that they are doing it.        似乎就有好转。
And in some local area it seems to help.        而且在某些局部领域,这种做法看起来是有帮助的。
K: No, but aren't you concerned, if I may ask,        克:不是这个,可以的话我要问,难道你不关心
with not being able to hurt at all?        怎样完全不受伤吗?
H: Yes.        希:关心。
B: What do you mean by that, not hurting somebody else        博:那是什么意思,不伤害别人,
or not hurting... not bing hurt inside of you.        或是不伤害……内心不被伤害。
K: I may hurt others unconsciously, unwillingly,        克:我可能会无意地伤害到别人,
but I wouldn't hurt voluntarily somebody.        但我不会故意去伤人。
B: Yes, you really don't intend to hurt anybody.        博:没错,你确实不会故意去伤害任何人。
K: Yes. I wouldn't.        克:是的,我不会。
S: Well, maybe not, but I don't see the connection between        谢:好,也许不会,但我不明白
not hurting other people and not being hurt oneself.        不伤害他人和自己不受伤害之间有什么联系。
At least I'm sure there must be one, but it's not obvious.        至少我知道肯定有一点联系,但并不是显而易见的联系。
And most people's view of the best way not to be hurt would be        而且大多数人认为,不受伤害的最好方式就是
to be in such a position that you can hurt others so much        处于可以极大地伤害他人的地位,
they'd never dare. This is the principle of nuclear retaliation,        这样别人就不敢来伤害你了。这就是核反击的原则,
and this is a very common principle.        这也是司空见惯的原则。
K: Yes, of course.        克:没错,当然。
S: So it's not obvious that not hurting others        谢:所以不伤害他人与自己不受伤害之间
is related to not being hurt oneself.        的联系并不明显。
In fact, usually it's taken to be the reverse.        事实上,人们常常抱持相反的观点。
It's usually assumed that if you're in a position        人们通常假定如果你地位显赫,
to hurt others very much you'll be very secure.        可以生杀予夺,你就会非常安全。
K: Of course, I mean if you're a king, or a sannyasi,        克:当然,我的意思是如果你是国王或托钵僧,
or one of those people who have built a wall round themselves...        或者那些在自己周围竖起高墙的人……
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: ...naturally you can never hurt them.        克:……你自然永远伤不到他们。
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: But when they were children they were hurt.        克:但他们幼时曾被伤害。
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: That hurt remains. It may remain superficially        克:那伤害没有消失。可能留在表面,
or in the deep recesses of one's own mind.        也可能留在一个人的意识深处。
Now, how do you, as a psychologist, psychotherapist, help another,        那么,作为一个心理学家、心理治疗师,你要怎样帮助别人,
who is deeply hurt and is unaware of it,        那些受伤很深,自己却没有意识到的人,
and to see if it is possible not to be hurt at all?        并且看看是不是可能完全不受伤?
H: I don't address the question about is it possible to not be hurt at all.        希:我不会讨论可不可能完全不受伤的问题。
That doesn't come up.        那个问题不会出现。
K: Why?        克:为什么?
Wouldn't that be a reasonable question?        那不是一个合理的问题吗?
H: Well, it seems to be what we are asking here.        希:哦,那似乎是我们在这里问的问题。
It is the essence of the question that we're asking.        那是我们所问的问题的本质。
We ask it in terms of particulars only in therapy,        我们只是特别针对治疗在问,
and you're asking it more generally,        而你从更普遍的意义上来问,
is it possible to end this hurt, period.        可不可能结束这个伤害、这段时期。
Not just a particular hurt that I happen to have.        并不只是我恰好有的某个特定的伤害。
K: So, how should we proceed?        克:那么,我们该怎样继续讨论?
H: Well, it would seem that the structure that makes hurt possible        希:哦,我们得探讨一下可能形成伤害的结构。
is what we have to get at. What makes hurt possible        首先,是什么使伤害成为可能,
in the first place, not this hurt or that hurt.        不是特定的这个伤害或那个伤害。
K: I think that's fairly simple. Why am I hurt?        克:我觉得那个问题很简单。我为什么受伤?
Because you say something to me which is not pleasant.        因为你对我说了一些不中听的话。
H: Well, why should that hurt you?        希:哦,为什么那会伤害你?
K: Because I have an image about myself as being a great man.        克:因为我对自己抱有一个意象,认为自己是个了不起的人。
You come along and tell me, don't be an ass. And I get hurt.        你却过来告诉我,别那么蠢!于是我受伤了。
H: What is it that's being hurt there?        希:那当中到底是什么受到了伤害?
K: There, the image which I have about myself.        克:我对自己所抱持的意象。
I am a great cook,        我是个了不起的厨师,
a great scientist, a great carpenter, whatever you will.        了不起的科学家,了不起的木匠,不管什么。
I have got that picture in myself,        我内心有那个画面。
and you come along and put a pin into it.        而你过来刺痛了它。
And that gets hurt.        那个东西就受伤了。
The image gets hurt. The image is me.        那个意象受伤了。那个意象就是我。
B: I feel that that will not be terribly clear to many people.        博:我感觉对很多人而言这种解释很模糊。
How can I be an image, many people will ask.        很多人会问,我怎么会是一个意象。
How can an image get hurt,        一个意象怎么会受伤,
because if an image is nothing at all, why does it hurt?        因为如果意象毫无实质内容,为什么会受伤?
K: Because I have invested into that image a lot of feeling.        克:因为我在那个意象中投入了很多的情感。
B: Yes.        博:嗯。
K: A lot of ideas, emotions, reactions        克:很多的想法、情感、反应
- all that is me, that is my image.        ——那一切都是我,那就是我的意象。
H: It doesn't look like an image to me though,        希:可是在我看来,那似乎并非一个意象,
it looks like something real.        似乎是某些真实的东西。
K: Ah, of course, for most people it's very real.        克:啊,当然!对大多数人而言,那是非常真实的。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: But that is me, the reality of that image is me.        克:但那就是我,那个意象实际上就是我。
H: Yes.        希:好。
Well, can we get clear that it's an image and not real?        那么,我们能不能弄清楚那是一个意象,不是真的?
K: Image is never real; symbol is never real.        克:意象永远是假的,符号永远是假的。
H: You're saying that I'm just a symbol.        希:你是说我只是一个符号。
K: Perhaps. (Laughter) H: That's a big step.        克:也许。(笑)希:这是很大的进展。
K: From that arises the question        克:从那一点引出一个问题:
whether it's possible not to have images at all.        是否可能不抱持任何意象。
S: Well, wait a minute. I don't think we've clearly established        谢:哦,等一下,我认为我们还没有明确
that I am an image.        我是一个意象。
K: Ah, let's go into it.        克:啊,那就来探讨一下。
S: I mean, it's not entirely clear. I mean, it's obvious        谢:我是说,并不是完全清楚了。我的意思是,显然
that to some extent one is an image,        在某个程度上我们是一个意象,
that when I have a feeling about myself, and so on.        当我对自己抱有某种感受时,等等。
It's not entirely clear that this is entirely unjustified.        我们没有充分认识到这种做法完全不正当。
You see, certain aspects of it may be exaggerated,        你看,可能是某些方面被夸大了,
certain aspects may be unrealistic, but,        某些方面可能是不真实的,然而,
one approach would be, we've got to remove, shave off        有一个方法是,我们得清除、剔除
these unrealistic aspects, pare it down to sort of reasonable size.        那些不真实的方面,把它减少到某种合理的程度。
And then that which remains would be the real thing.        剩下的可能就是真东西了。
K: So, sir, are you raising the question, what am I?        克:那么,先生,你是在问,我是什么吗?
S: Well, I suppose so, yes.        谢:哦,我想是的。
K: Yes, basically.        克:好,基本上是这个意思。
What are you? What is each one of us?        你是什么?我们每个人是什么?
What is a human being?        人是什么?
That's the question that's involved.        那个问题涉及到这些。
S: Yes, that seems unavoidable.        谢:是的,似乎绕不过去。
K: Yes. What am I?        克:是的。我是什么?
I am the form, the physical form, the name,        我是这个形状,这个物质的形状,名字,
the result of all education. H: Your experience.        全部教育的结果。希:你的经验。
K: My experiences, my beliefs,        克:我的经验、我的信仰。
my ideals, principles,        我的理想、原则,
the incidents that have marked me.        在我身上打上烙印的所有事件。
H: The structures you've built up that are how you function.        希:你建立起来的行动结构。
K: Yes. H: Your skills.        克:是的。希:你的技术。
K: My fears, my activities, whether they are limited        克:我的恐惧,我的行动,不管它们是不是局限的,
or my so-called affection, my gods,        或者我所谓的情感,我的上帝,
my country, my language,        我的国家,我的语言、
fears, pleasures, suffering - all that is me.        恐惧、快乐、痛苦——那一切都是我。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: That's my consciousness.        克:那是我的意识。
H: And your unconscious. K: That's my whole content of me.        希:以及你的无意识。克:那是我的全部内容。
H: Okay.        希:是的。
B: But there's still that feeling of actuality that me is there.        博:但那还是有一种“有我存在”的真实感觉。
I mean, you may say, you could reasonably argue        我的意思是,你也许会说,你可以有力地论证,
that that's all there is to me, but when something happens        “我”就是那一切,但是当事情发生时,
there's the feeling of its actual presence, at that moment.        就会有一种真实的存在感,就在当时那一刻。
K: I don't quite follow you there.        克:我不太明白你的意思。
B: If somebody reacts to being hurt or angry,        博:如果有人产生受伤或者生气的反应,
he feels at that moment that there's more than that,        那一刻他感觉到事情没有那么简单,
that there is something deep inside which has been hurt, right?        就是受伤的是内心深处的某个东西,不是吗?
K: I don't quite see.        克:我不觉得。
My image can be such a deep,        我的意象可以是非常深层的东西,
that's my image at all levels.        它可以在各个层面存在。
B: Yes, but how...        博:好,可怎样……
K: Wait, sir, I have an image of myself, suppose,        克:等下,先生。假定我对自己抱有一个意象,
that I am a great poet, or a great painter,        我认为自己是个大诗人,或者大画家,
or a great writer.        或者大文豪。
Apart from that image as a writer,        除了那个文豪的意象,
I have other images about myself.        我对自己还抱有其他意象。
I have an image about my wife,        我对妻子抱有意象,
and she has an image about me,        而她对我也抱有意象,
and there are so many images I've built around myself,        我对周遭的事物建立了非常多的意象,
and the image about myself also.        以及关于我自己的意象。
So, I may gather a bundle of images. B: Yes, I understand.        所以,我可能积累了一大堆的意象。博:是的,我明白。
K: Partial. B: Yes, you are saying that        克:明白一部分。博:是的,你的意思是
there is nothing but this bundle of images.        除了一堆意象外,别无他物。
K: Of course! B: But the question is        克:显然!博:但问题是
how are we to see this as an actual fact?        我们如何看到这就是事实?
K: Ah. S: But wait a minute,        克:啊。谢:不过等等,
there is something but this bundle of images.        除了这一堆意象,其实还有东西。
I mean, I'm sitting right here, now,        我是说,此刻我就坐在这里,
seeing you, and all the rest of it. Now, I have the feeling        看着你,诸如此类。那么,我感觉到
there's a centre of action or centre of consciousness,        有一个行为的中心或是意识的中心,
which is within my body and associated with it,        就在我的身体里并与之相关,
which has a centre, and it's not you, and it's not you,        有一个中心,不是你,不是你,
and it's not David, it's me.        不是大卫,而是我。
And associated with this centre of action, my body, sitting here,        我的身体,坐在这里,跟那个行为中心相关的,
is a whole lot of memories and experiences,        是一大堆的记忆和经验,
and without those memories I wouldn't be able to speak,        如果没有那些记忆,我就无法说话,
to talk, to recognise anything. K: Of course, of course.        无法交谈,无法辨识任何东西。克:当然,当然。
S: So, there seems to be some substance to this image of myself.        谢:所以,自我的意象似乎含有某种实质的东西。
There may be false images associated with it,        与之相关的可能是一个错误的意象,
but there seems to be a reality which I feel as I sit here.        但我坐在这里时我似乎感受到了一种真实。
So it's not entirely illusory.        所以并非完全是虚假的。
K: Sir, are you saying that you are totally,        克:先生,你的意思是你跟我们三个
basically different from the three of us?        完全不同,根本不同吗?
S: Well, I'm in a different place and I have a different body.        谢:哦,我坐在不同的地方,我有不同的身体。
K: Of course. S: And in that sense I'm different.        克:当然。谢:在那个意义上我就是不同的。
K: Of course, admit that, I mean, you're tall, I'm short,        克:当然,那个我承认。我的意思是,你高,我矮,
I'm brown, you're... S: Yes.        我是棕色人种,你是……谢:是的。
K: ...black, or you're white, or you're pink, or whatever it is.        克:……黑人或白人,或者你是粉色的,等等。
S: Now, at another level I'm not basically different in the sense        谢:那么,在另一个层面上我并非有根本的不同。
that we can all speak the same language and communicate,        我们都可以讲同一种语言,可以交流,
so there's something in common. And at a purely physical level        所以有共同点。而且在纯粹的生理层面,
all of us have a lot in common with each other,        我们彼此之间有很多共同点,
the same kinds of enzymes, chemicals, and so on.        一样的酶啊、化学物质等等。
And those indeed - hydrogen atoms, oxygen atoms -        氢原子、氧原子——这些确实
we have in common with everything else.        是我们跟所有东西的共同点。
K: Yes. Now, is your consciousness different from the rest?        克:是的。那么,你的意识跟其他人不一样吗?
Consciousness, not bodily responses, bodily reactions,        是意识,不是身体的反应、
bodily conditioning,        身体的制约,
is your consciousness, that is your beliefs,        你的意识,即你的信仰,
your fears, your anxieties,        你的恐惧,你的焦虑,
depressions, faith - all that?        你的忧愁、信念——那一切?
S: Well, I would say that many of the contents of my consciousness        谢:哦,我认为,我所具有的意识的很多内容
or many of the beliefs, desires, etc. I have, other people also have.        或者我的很多信仰、欲望等等,其他人也有。
But I would say the particular combination of experiences,        但我觉得,我有的经验、记忆、欲望等等的特定组合,
memories, desires, etc. I have, are unique, because I've had        是独一无二的,因为我有的是
a particular set of experiences, as you have and as everyone has,        特定的一套经验,就像你有你的,每个人有自己的,
which makes a unique combination of these different elements.        这些不同的因素形成了独一无二的组合。
K: So, is mine unique? S: Yes.        克:所以,我的经验是独一无二的?谢:是的。
K: So is his? S: Exactly.        克:他的也是?谢:正确。
K: The uniqueness makes it all common. It's no longer unique.        克:大家都独一无二。那就不再是独一无二了。
S: That's a paradox. It's not immediately clear.        谢:那是个悖论。并不是直接就显得那么清楚。
B: Why isn't it clear? Everybody's unique, right?        博:为什么不清楚?每个人都是独一无二的,不是吗?
S: Yes, we're all unique. K: I question that.        谢:是的,我们都是独一无二的。克:我质疑这一点。
S: We're not unique in the same way.        谢:我们独一无二的方式是不一样的。
Otherwise the word 'unique' becomes meaningless.        否则“独一无二”这个词就没有意义了。
If we're unique, each of us is unique, we have        如果我们是独一无二的,我们每个人就都是独特的,我们有
a unique set of experiences, environmental factors, memories, etc.        一套独一无二的经验、环境因素、记忆等等。
K: That's what you just now said, that's common lot to all of us.        克:这些你刚才都说了,那是我们所有人的共同点。
S: Yes, we all have it, but what we have is different.        谢:是的,我们都具有,但我们具有的内容是不同的。
K: Yes, you brought up in England,        克:是的,你在英国长大,
and perhaps another brought up in America, another brought up in Chile,        而另一个人可能在美国,另一个在智利长大,
we all have different experiences, different country,        我们都有不同的经验,不同的国家,
different views, different mountains, and so on.        不同的视野,不同的山川,等等。
S: Yes.        谢:是的,
K: But apart from the physical environment,        克:但除了物质环境、
linguistic differences,        语言差异
and accidents of experience,        以及经历的事件,
basically, fundamentally, deep down,        从基本上、根本上,在深层次上,
we suffer, we are frightened to death, we are anxious,        我们都痛苦,我们害怕死亡,我们焦虑,
we have agony about something or other, and conflict        我们对某些东西愤怒,我们冲突——
- that's the ground on which we all stand.        那是我们所有人共同的立足点。
S: But that doesn't seem a very startling conclusion.        谢:但那并不是多惊人的结论啊。
K: No, it is not.        克:不,不惊人。
B: But I think, what you are saying really implies that        博:但我认为,你的说法其实意味着
what we have in common is essential and fundamental        我们的共同点是本质上的、根本上的,
rather than just superficial.        而非表面的。
And now, I've talked with people about this, and they say,        而我跟别人谈论过这些,他们说,
everybody agrees, we all have these things in common,        他们每个人都同意,我们都有这些共同的东西,
but sorrow, suffering, and so on, are not so important;        但悲伤、痛苦之类并没有多重要;
the really important point are the higher achievements of culture        真正重要的是文化上更高的成就,
and things like that, as an example.        这一类的东西,以此为例。
H: Maybe the distinction is between the form and the content.        希:也许差别在于形式和内容之间的不同。
Our contents are all different, and they have similarities        我们的内容都是不一样的,有相似性
and differences, but maybe the form is the same, the structure.        和不同之处,不过也许形式、结构是一样的。
K: I would say contents are the same for all human beings.        克:我认为全人类的内容都一样。
S: But you see, I can recognise that there is such a thing        谢:但你看,我可以认为
as common humanity, but I would regard that quite possibly        有一个“全人类”存在,但我也完全可以把它看做
as an abstraction or a projection rather than a reality.        一个抽象概念或一种投射,而不是一个事实。
How do I know that is not an abstraction?        我怎么知道那不是一个抽象概念?
K: Because you go around the world, you see people suffer,        克:因为你走遍世界,你看到人们在受苦,
you see human beings in agony, despair, depression,        你看到人类陷于痛苦、绝望、忧伤
loneliness, lack of affection, lack of care, attention,        和孤独之中,缺乏爱、缺乏体贴和关怀,
that's the basic human reactions,        那就是人类基本的反应,
that is part of our consciousness.        那就是我们意识的一部分。
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: So, you are not basically different from me.        克:所以,基本上你跟我没有什么不同。
You may be tall, you may be born in England, I may be born in Africa,        你可能长得高一点,你可能出生在英国,我出生在非洲,
I have a dark skin, but deep down the river        我的皮肤黑,但在河的深处,
the content of the river is the water.        河的内容就是水。
The river is not Asiatic river, or European river, it is a river.        没有什么亚洲河、欧洲河,就是河。
S: Yes, well that is clearly true at some level.        谢:是的,在某个层面,确实如此。
But I am not quite sure at what level, you see.        但你看,我不确定是哪个层面上。
K: I am talking basically, deeply.        克:我说的是根本的东西、深层的东西。
S: But you see, it seems to me, why stop there?        谢:但你知道,在我看来,那为什么就止于此了呢?
I can see something in common with all other human beings,        我可以看到所有人类身上一些共同的东西,
but I can also by looking at animals        而通过观察动物,我也可以
see something in common with them.        看到跟它们的一些共同之处。
We have a great deal in common with the animals.        我们跟动物有不少相似之处。
K: Surely, surely. S: So why stop at human beings?        克:当然,当然。谢:所以为什么只说人类?
K: I don't. S: Why not say...        克:我没有。谢:为什么不说……
K: Because I say if I feel...        克:因为我说如果我感到……
I don't like the word 'common.'        我不喜欢“共同”这个词。
One feels that is the ground on which all human beings stand.        我觉得那是所有人类的根基。
Their relationship with nature, animals, and so on,        他们跟自然、动物等等的关系,
and the content of our consciousness is, again,        而且我们意识的内容,同样,
the ground of humanity.        就是人类的根基。
Love is not English, American, or Indian.        爱无所谓英国的、美国的或者印度的。
Hate is not,        仇恨也一样,
agony is not yours or mine, it is agony.        痛苦无所谓你的或我的,它就是痛苦。
But we identify ourselves with agony,        但我们把自身跟痛苦相认同,
it is my agony, which is not yours.        那是我的痛苦,不是你i的。
S: We might go through it in very different ways though.        谢:不过也许我们可以用截然不同的方式来检视这一点。
K: Different expressions, different reactions, but basically it is agony.        克:不同的表达、不同的反应,但其根本就是痛苦。
Not German agony and Asiatic agony.        不是德国人的痛苦、亚洲人的痛苦。
It's not what is happening - British and Argentine,        不在于发生的是什么——英国人、阿根廷人,
it is human conflict.        它就是人类的冲突。
Why do we separate ourselves from all this?        为什么我们把自己与这一切分离开来?
The British, the Argentine, the Jew,        英国人、阿根廷人、犹太人,
the Arab, the Hindu, the Muslim.        阿拉伯人、印度人、穆斯林。
You follow?        明白吗?
Which all seems so nonsensical, tribal.        这一切看起来毫无理性,充满部落主义色彩。
The worship of a nation is tribalism.        崇拜国家就是部落主义。
So, why can't we wipe out all that?        所以,为什么我们不能清除那一切?
S: I don't know. You tell me, why can't we?        谢:我不知道。你说吧,为什么我们不能?
K: Because, again, we have come back to the question:        克:因为,我们又要回到这个问题了:
I identify with my nation, because that gives me a certain strength,        我认同我的国家,因为那带给我一种力量、
certain standard, certain status, certain security.        一种标准、一种地位、一种安全。
When I say, 'I am British'...        当我说:“我是英国人”……
So, this division is one of the reasons of war,        所以,这种划分就是战争的起因之一,
not only economic, social, and all the rest of it.        并不只是经济、社会之类的因素造成了战争。
Nationalism, which is really        国家主义,事实上是美化了的
glorified tribalism, is the cause of war.        部落主义,那就是战争的起因。
Why can't we wipe that out? It seems so reasonable.        为什么我们不能清除它?理由看起来非常充分了。
H: It seems reasonable on a level like nationalism;        希:在国家主义这个层面上,理由是很充分,
people don't think they are England.        人们并不认为他们是英格兰。
K: Start from there. H: Okay.        克:就从那里开始。希:好的。
But then I have a patient, and he does think that he is married        可是,接着我有一个病人,他就是认为自己结婚了,
and that it is his wife. K: Yes.        而他的妻子有问题。克:嗯。
Of course, it is his wife.        当然,认为是他妻子的问题。
H: Well, isn't that the same action that you are talking about?        希:那么,这跟你说的不是同一种行为吗?
K: No, no.        克:不,不。
Sir, just let's go into it slowly.        先生,我们慢慢来。
H: Okay.        希:好的。
K: Why do I want to identify myself with something greater?        克:为什么我想跟某些更伟大的东西相认同?
H: Because I am not sufficient. K: Like nationalism, like god.        希:因为我不满足。克:比如国家主义,比如上帝。
H: I don't feel sufficient. K: Which means what?        希:我感到不满足。克:那意味着什么?
H: Insecure.        希:不安。
K: Insecure, insufficient, lonely, isolated.        克:不安、不满足、孤独、隔绝。
I have built a wall round myself. H: Yes.        我在周围竖起高墙。希:是的。
K: So, all this is making me desperately lonely.        克:所以,这一切都造成我极度的孤独。
And out of that conscious or unconscious loneliness        由于那种有意无意的孤独,
I identify with god, with the nation, with Mussolini,        我认同于上帝、国家、墨索里尼,
it doesn't matter - Hitler, or any religious teacher.        不管什么——希特勒或者任何宗教导师。
H: Okay. Or I get married, I have a job, I make a place for myself.        希:好吧。或者,我结婚了,有一份工作,有点地位。
K: Yes. H: And that's all also identification.        克:嗯。希:那一切也都是认同。
K: Yes. Why do we want to identify with something?        克:是的。为什么我们想要认同某些东西?
No, the basic question is too, why do we want roots?        不对,还有一个根本的问题:为什么我们要有根?
H: To belong. K: To belong,        希:要归属。克:要归属,
which is also implied to become. H: Yes.        也就是意味着要成为什么。希:是的。
K: So, this whole process of becoming,        克:所以这整个“成为”的过程,
from childhood        从童年起,
I am asked to become, become, become.        我就被要求成为、成为、成为。
From the priest to the bishop, the bishop to the cardinal,        从牧师到主教,从主教到红衣主教,
the cardinal to the pope.        从红衣主教到教皇。
And in the business world it is the same.        在商业领域也是一样。
In the spiritual world it is the same.        在精神领域也是如此。
I am this, but I must become that.        我是这个,但我必须成为那个。
H: Okay, what I am is not sufficient.        希:是的,我的现状还不够好。
K: Why do we want to become? What is it that is becoming?        克:为什么我们想成为什么?那个要成为的是什么?
S: Any obvious reason for wanting to become        谢:想要成为什么最明显的理由
is a feeling of insufficiency,        就是不满足感,
inadequacy, in the state that we are.        觉得我们的现状不够好。
And one of the reasons for this is that we live in an imperfect world,        原因之一就是我们生活在一个不完美的世界里,
our relations with other people are imperfect.        我们跟别人的关系是不完美的。
We are not content for a variety of reasons with the way we are.        对于我们现在的样子,有一大堆理由让我们感到不满意。
So the way out of that seems to become something else.        所以成为其他什么似乎就是我们的出路了。
K: Yes. That means escaping from 'what is.'        克:是的。那意味着逃避“实然”。
S: Yes. But it may seem 'what is' is something        谢:没错。但似乎“实然”就是
we have a need to escape from,        我们需要逃避的东西,
because there is something wrong with it.        因为它有问题。
K: All right. Take the usual experience. I am violent,        克:好。我们来看一个常见的经验。我是暴力的,
and I have invented non-violence.        然后我发明了非暴力。
Right? And I am trying to become that.        是不是?然后我努力变成那样。
I'll take years to become that. In the meantime I am violent.        我会花很多年成为那样的人。与此同时我暴力依旧。
So, I have never escaped from violence. It is just an invention.        所以,我从来没有摆脱暴力。那不过是一个臆想。
S: Well, you are trying to escape from it.        谢:哦,你尽力逃开它。
You may escape in the end.        也许最终你能逃掉。
K: No, I don't want to escape. I want to understand        克:不,我不想逃。我想了解
the nature of violence, what is implied in it,        暴力的本质,它蕴含的实质,
whether it is possible to live a life        我想了解可不可能过一种
without any sense of violence.        不含丝毫暴力的生活。
S: But what you are suggesting is a more effective method of escaping.        谢:但是你所建议的是一种更有效的逃避方法。
You are not suggesting an abandoning the idea of escaping.        你并不是在建议放弃逃避的想法。
You are suggesting that the normal way of escaping,        你提出,通常的逃避方法,
trying to become nonviolent,        即努力变得不暴力,
is one way of doing it which doesn't work.        是一种处理方式,但没有效果。
Whereas if you do another method,        然而如果你采取另一种方法,
where you actually look at the violence in a different way,        实际上你是在用不同的方式来看待暴力,
you can become non-violent. K: I am not escaping.        你就能变得不暴力。克:我没有在逃避。
S: Well, you are changing then.        谢:哦,不过你发生改变了。
K: No. I am violent. S: Yes.        克:不。我暴力。谢:嗯。
K: I want to see what is the nature of violence, how it arises.        克:我想看看暴力的本质是什么,它是怎么产生的。
S: But for what purpose?        谢:但目的是什么?
K: To see whether it is possible to be free of it completely.        克:为了了解是否有可能完全从暴力中解脱。
S: But isn't that a kind of escape from it?        谢:但那不就是一种逃避吗?
K: No. S: Being free of something...        克:不是。谢:从某些东西中解脱……
K: ...is not an escape. S: Why not?        克:……并不是逃避。谢:为什么不是?
K: Avoidance, running away, fly away from 'what is' is an escape,        克:躲开,逃开,避开“实然”是一种逃避,
but to say, look, this is what I am, let's look at it,        但如果你说,看,我就是这样的,我们来看一下,
let's observe what its content is. That is not escape!        来观察一下它的内容。那并不是逃避!
S: Oh, I see, the distinction you are making is that if you run away,        谢:噢,我明白了,你作出的区分在于,如果你逃避,
and escape in a normal sense is running away from something,        通常意义上的逃避是远离某个东西,
like escaping from prison, or one's parents, or whatever,        比如逃离监狱、逃离父母,诸如此类,
but they still remain there. What you are saying is that        但你仍然陷于其中。而你的意思是,
rather than escaping from violence,        不是逃避暴力,
which leaves violence intact and still there,        那只会令暴力原封不动,
and you try and distance yourself from it,        而是让自己抽离出来,
you try to dissolve violence, or abolish it.        试图消解暴力,或者除去它。
K: Dissolve. S: Yes.        克:消解。谢:是的。
K: Not abolish it, dissolve. S: All right.        克:不是除去,而是消解。谢:好的。
So this is different from escape, because you are trying        所以这不同于逃避,因为你试图
to dissolve the thing rather than run away from it.        消解那个东西,而不是逃避它。
K: Running away is... Everybody runs away.        克:逃避是……每个人都逃避。
S: Well, it usually works, to a limited extent.        谢:是啊,在有限的程度内,它通常是有效的。
K: No.        克:不对。
It's like running away from my agony by going to football.        那就像为了逃避痛苦我去看足球。
I come back home, it is there!        等我一回到家,它还在那里!
I don't want to go to watch football,        我不想看足球赛,
but I want to see what violence is        但我想看看暴力是什么,
and see if it is possible to be completely free of it.        想看看可不可能完全从中解脱。
S: If I am in a very unpleasant society and I can escape from it        谢:如果我身处一个非常糟糕的社会,而我可以逃离它,
by defecting, or leaving it and going to another one.        通过叛变,或者离它而去另一个国家。
And this does in fact mean I escape to some extent.        那这实际上也意味着某种程度的逃避。
K: Of course.        克:当然。
S: So these are always partial answers and they are partially effective.        谢:所以这些总是局部的解决方法,只是部分有效。
K: I don't want to be partially violent.        克:我不想局部暴力。
Or partially free from it.        或者局部解脱。
I want to find out if it is possible to totally end it.        我想搞清楚可不可能彻底结束它。
That's not an escape, that's putting my teeth into it.        那不是逃避,那是实实在在解决它。
S: Yes. But you have to believe it is possible        谢:是的。不过你得相信那是可能的,
in order to put your teeth into it.        不然你不会投入。
K: I don't know, I am going to investigate.        克:我不知道,我会探究。
I said, for me, I know one can live without violence.        我说过,对我而言,我知道人可以没有暴力地生活。
But that may be a freak, that may be a biological freak, and so on.        不过那也许是个怪胎,一个生物学上的怪胎,如此等等。
But to discuss together, the four of us and see        但要一起讨论,我们四个一起观察,
if we could be free of violence completely, means not escaping,        看看我们能否彻底从暴力中解脱,并不是逃避,
not suppressing, not transcending it,        不是压抑它、转化它,
and see what is violence.        而是看看什么是暴力。
Violence is part of imitation, conformity.        暴力是模仿和遵从的一部分。
Right?        对吗?
Apart from physical hurts, I am not talking about that.        先不说生理创伤,我谈的不是那个。
So, psychologically there is this constant comparing,        所以,在心理上我们一直在不停地比较,
that is part of hurt, part of violence.        那就是创伤的一部分,暴力的一部分。
So, can I live without comparison,        所以,我的生活可以没有比较吗?
when from childhood I have been trained to compare        虽然从儿时起,我就已经学会了
myself with somebody?        跟人比。
I am talking comparison, not good cloth and bad cloth.        我谈的不是比较哪块布好,哪块布差。
H: Right. Talking about comparing myself.        希:没错。谈的是比较自己。
K: Myself with you who are bright, who are clever,        克:我跟你谁聪明,谁伶俐,
who have got publicity.        谁更受人瞩目。
When you say a word the whole world listens.        如果你说一句话,整个世界都侧耳倾听。
And I can shout, nobody cares.        而我大喊大叫也没人理。
So, I want to be like you.        所以,我想跟你一样。
So, I am comparing constantly myself with something I think is greater.        所以,我不停地拿自己跟某些更伟大的东西比。
H: So, this is where becoming comes from, this comparison.        希:所以,这个比较,就是“成为”的起因。
K: That's just it. So, can I live without comparison?        克:对了。所以,我可以在生活中不作比较吗?
H: Doesn't that leave me in an insufficient state?        希:那不会令我陷于不满足的境地吗?
K: No. To live without comparison? No.        克:不会。不作比较地活着?不会的。
H: Here I start off insufficient...        希:那我就从不满足开始讲……
K: You understand, sir? Am I dull because I compare myself with you,        克:你明白吗,先生?不是因为我跟聪明的你
who are bright? H: Yes.        比较,我才显得笨吗?希:是的。
Yes, you are dull because you compare yourself.        是的,你笨是因为你在作比较。
K: By comparing myself with you, who are bright, who are clever,        克:拿我自己跟聪明伶俐的你比,
I become dull. I think I am dull. H: Yes.        我就变笨了。我就认为自己笨了。希:没错。
K: But if I don't compare I am what I am.        克:但如果我不作比较,我就是我。
S: Well, you may not compare but I may compare. I may say, 'You are dull.'        谢:可是,也许你不作比较,可我会比,我可能会说:“你是个笨蛋”。
K: All right. I say, 'All right.' You say I am dull. I say, 'Am I?'        克:那好,我会说:“好吧。”你说我笨,我反问:“有吗?”
I want to know what does it mean.        我想知道那句话是什么意思。
Does it mean he is comparing himself with me,        是他在跟我比较吗?
who is...  - you follow?        他……——你明白吗?
(Laughter) the reverse of it        (笑)正好相反。
S: Very frustrating, that. Yes. I mean, if one compared oneself        谢:那真令人泄气。是的。我的意思是,如果我们
with somebody and said, 'You are dull,'        拿自己跟别人比,说“你是个笨蛋”,
and then they said, 'What does dullness mean?'! (Laughter)        然后对方说,“笨是什么意思?!“(笑)
K: The other day, after one of the talks in England        克:有一天在英国,结束一个演讲后,
a man came up to me and said, 'Sir, you are a beautiful old man,        有个人过来跟我说:“先生,您是位相貌庄严的长者,
but you are stuck in a rut.'        但您墨守陈规。”
I said, 'Well, sir, perhaps, sir,        我说:“哦,先生,也许如此,先生,
I don't know, we'll go into it.'        我不知道,我们来探讨一下。”
So I went up to my room and said, 'Am I?'        所以我就走进我的房间然后问:“我有吗?”
Because I don't want to be stuck in a rut. I may be.        因为我不想墨守陈规。我也许是那样的。
So, I went into it very, very carefully, step by step, and found        所以,我非常非常仔细地探究起来,一步一步,发现
what does a rut mean - to stick in a groove along a particular line.        “陈规”的意思是——沿着特定的路线守着老一套。
Maybe, so I watch it.        也许是那样,所以我来审视这一点。
So, observation of a fact is entirely different        所以,观察一个事实跟逃避或者压抑
from the escaping or the suppression of it.        是截然不同的。
H: So, he says you are stuck in a rut,        希:所以,他说你墨守陈规,
and you observe it, you don't compare.        而你作了观察,却没有比较。
K: I don't. Am I in a rut? I look. I may be stuck in a rut,        克:没有。我墨守陈规吗?我观察。我也许墨守陈规,
because I speak English.        因为我讲英语。
I speak Italian and French.        我讲意大利语和法语。
All right. And that's not…        好吧。而那不是……
Am I psychologically, inwardly, caught in a groove, like a tram car?        在内心,在心理上,我墨守陈规吗?像有轨电车一样?
H: Just motivated by something and not understanding it.        希:只是被某个东西推动着,但对它不清不楚。
K: No, am I? I don't know, I am going to find out. I am going to watch.        克:不,我有吗?我不知道,我会去搞清楚它。我会去观察。
I am going to be terribly attentive, sensitive, alert.        我会非常留心、非常敏锐、警觉。
H: Now, this requires that you are not reacting in the first place by saying        希:那么,这就要求你在第一时间不起反应,不说
'No, that's horrible, I couldn't possibly be stuck in a rut.'        “不,那太糟糕了,我决不能墨守陈规。”
K: I wouldn't. You may be telling the truth.        克:我不会。也许你说的是事实。
H: To not have that reaction you can't have that self there        希:要不起反应,你就不能有个自我在那里说:
that says, 'I am not the type of person that is stuck in ruts.'        “我不是那种墨守陈规的人。”
K: I don't know.        克:我不知道。
Sir, is there a learning        先生,有没有一种
about oneself which is not...        对自己的了解,它不是……
- this leads to something else, I mustn't go into it -        ——导向某个别的东西,我不能详细讲这个问题了——
which is not constant accumulation about myself?        并不是持续地积累对自己的认识?
I don't know if I am making myself clear.        不知道我有没有说清楚。
H: Yes.        希:我明白。
K: I observe myself. H: Yes.        克:我观察自己。希:嗯。
K: And I have learnt from that observation something.        克:我从观察中了解到一些东西。
And that something is being accumulated        那了解到的东西在观察的过程中
all the time by watching.        一直被积累着。
I think that is not learning about yourself.        我认为那不是了解自己。
H: Yes. It's being concerned with what you think about yourself.        希:没错。那是你认为自己怎样。
K: Yes, what you think about yourself,        克:是,你认为自己怎样,
what you have gathered about yourself.        你积累的关于自己的知识。
H: Yes.        希:没错。
K: Like a river that is flowing, you have to follow it.        克:像川流不息的河水,你得跟随它。
That leads somewhere else. Let's get back.        那是另一回事了。我们回过来说。
H: Maybe this is part of the question we are asking,        希:也许那跟我们在谈的问题有关,
because we start with        因为我们一开始谈的是
how does this disorder occur. K: Yes, sir, let's stick to that.        这种失序是怎样发生的。克:是的,先生,我们不要偏离那个问题。
H: It occurs because I have the image of myself of someone who knows        希:它之所以发生,是因为我对自己抱有一个意象,知道
he is not stuck in a rut. I don't like to think        自己不是一个墨守陈规的人。我不想认为
that I am stuck in a rut, and somebody says, 'Yes, you are.'        自己墨守陈规,不喜欢听到别人说:“你就是那样的。”
K: But you may be.        克:但你也许真那样。
H: Yes. I have to be open to looking, to see.        希:是的。我得保持开放,愿意去观察、去看。
K: Yes, to observe.        克:是的,去观察。
S: But then what about this approacH:         谢:那么这方法怎么样:
somebody says I am stuck in a rut,        有人说我墨守陈规,
I look at myself and think, 'Yes, I am stuck in a rut,'        我反观自己并认为:“是的,我墨守陈规,”
and then I can respond by thinking, what's wrong with that?        然后接下来我的反应是想:这有什么错?
Everyone is stuck in a rut. K: Sir, that's just blind.        每个人都墨守陈规。克:先生,那纯粹是盲目。
S: No, you accept the fact, but then you think,        谢:不,你接受了事实,然后你想:
'Why should I do anything about it?'        “为什么我该有所改变?”
What's wrong with that as an approach?        那作为一种应对方式,有什么错?
K: Like a man stuck as a Hindu, he is stuck.        克:就像有人守着印度教徒的身份,并困于其中。
He is then contributing to war.        那么他就是在为战争助阵。
S: I may say, well, I am stuck in a rut, but so is everybody,        谢:我可能会说,哦,我墨守陈规,可每个人都一样,
it is the nature of humanity to be stuck in ruts.        墨守陈规是人类的本性。
K: You see, that's it, you go off, that is the nature of humanity.        克:你看,就是这样,你偏离了,这是人类的本性。
But I question that.        可我质疑这一点。
If you say that is the nature of humanity,        如果你说那是人类的本性,
let's change it, for god's sake!        看在老天的份上,那就改变它!
S: But you may believe it is unchangeable.        谢:不过你可能相信那是改变不了的。
What reason have I for believing that we can change it?        我有什么理由相信我们可以改变这一点?
I may think that I am stuck in a rut,        我可能觉得我墨守陈规,
so are you, so is everybody else.        你也一样,每个人都一样。
And anyone who thinks they are not is deceiving themselves.        谁觉得他们不是,那不过是自欺欺人。
K: It's cheating themselves. I may cheat, so I begin to enquire        克:他们在自欺欺人。也许我在自欺欺人,那我就开始探究
- am I cheating myself? I want to be very honest about it.        ——我在自欺吗?对此我希望自己非常坦白。
I don't want to cheat, I don't want to be a hypocrite.        我不想欺骗,我不想做伪君子。
S: You may not be a hypocrite, you may think, 'I am stuck in a rut,'        谢:你也许不是伪君子,你也许会想:”我墨守陈规“,
and you may be a pessimist.        然后你可能是个悲观主义者。
The alternative to being a hypocrite is a pessimist.        如果不做伪君子,就做悲观主义者。
K: No, I am neither a pessimist nor an optimist.        克:不,我既不是悲观主义者,也不是乐观主义者。
I say, 'Look, am I stuck in a rut?'        我说:”看看,我墨守陈规吗?"
I watch all day.        我整天都在观察。
S: And you perhaps conclude, 'Yes.' But then you can take        谢:然后你也许得出一个结论:“是的。”不过你可以用
the pessimistic cause and say, 'Yes, I am, but so what?'        一个悲观的理由开解自己:“我就是这样,那又怎么了?”
K: If you prefer that way of living, go ahead.        克:如果你喜欢那种生活方式,尽管继续。
But I don't want to live that way.        但我不喜欢活成那样。
H: Well, the person who comes into therapy        希:哦,不过来治疗的人
usually comes with both sides going on at the same time.        通常同时有着两种心态。
He says that I have this problem which I want to be free of,        他说我有这个问题,我想摆脱它,
I don't want to be stuck in a rut; on the other hand,        我不想一成不变,另一方面,
when it gets down to really looking at that, he doesn't want        临到要好好审视一下问题时,他却不想
to look at it either, because it becomes uncomfortable.        审视了,因为那感觉不舒服。
K: Of course. So, to come back to your original question,        克:当然。所以,我们回到你最初的问题,
the world is in disorder, human beings are in disorder,        世界失序,人类失序,
and we described what is disorder.        我们描述了什么是失序。
And is there a possibility to live free from disorder?        而有没有可能让生活从失序中解脱呢?
That is the real basic question.        这是真正根本的问题。
We said as long as there is this divisive process of life        我们说,只要人生有这种分裂的过程,
- I am a Hindu, you are an Arab,        ——我是印度人,你是阿拉伯人,
I am a Buddhist, you are a Muslim,        我是佛教徒,你是穆斯林,
I am British, you are an Argentine -        我是英国人,你是阿根廷人——
there must be conflict, war.        那就一定会有冲突和战争。
My son is going to be killed, for what?        我的儿子会被杀死,为什么?
H: For as long as I identify on a personal level with my job,        希:因为只要我在个人层面认同我的工作,
or with my family, and so on, there will be pain.        或者我的家庭等等,就会有痛苦。
K: Of course. H: It is the same process.        克:当然。希:这是同样的过程。
K: So, is it possible to have without identification responsibility?        克:所以,可不可能不抱有这种认同的责任?
H: If I am not identified will I even go to work?        希:如果我不认同,我还会去工作吗?
K: But I am responsible for the lady whom I am married.        克:但我对我娶的女士负有责任。
Responsible in the sense that I have to look after her, care for her,        责任的意思是,我要照顾她,关心她,
and she has to care for me. Responsibility means order.        而她也要关心我。责任意味着秩序。
But we have become totally irresponsible        然而我们因为孤立自己而变得毫无责任感了
by isolating ourselves - British, French.        ——英国人、法国人。
H: We handle the problem of responsibility by developing a rut        希:我们发展出一个常规,藉此处理责任的问题。
that we can work in. K: Yes. That's it.        克:没错。就是这样。
H: And staying inside that.        希:然后死守不放。
K: If I see the fact that responsibility is order        克:如果我看到事实,即责任就是秩序
- I am responsible to keep this house clean -        ——我有责任清理房子——
but as we all live on this earth, it is our earth, not British earth,        但既然我们都生活在这个地球上,这是我们的地球,不是英国的地球,
and French earth, and German earth, it is our earth to live on.        不是法国的地球、德国的地球,这是我们赖以生存的地球。
And we have divided ourselves,        然而我们划分彼此,
because in this division we think there is security.        因为我们以为这种划分很安全。
H: There is stability and security.        希:稳定而安全。
K: Security. Which is no security at all.        克:安全。其实毫不安全。
H: Well, it isn't clear, we have got to go slow, because        希:不过,这一点没用阐释清楚。我们得慢慢推进,因为
I think that my job is security, I think that my family is security.        我认为我的工作即安全,我认为我的家庭即安全。
K: You may lose it.        克:你可能失去它。
H: That problem keeps coming up.        希:那种问题总是会发生。
K: There is great unemployment in America and in England,        克:美国和英国的失业情况很严重,
three million people unemployed in England.        英国有三百万人没有工作。
H: Or maybe I could get by without my job, but I need to think        希:或者也许没工作我也可以对付,但我需要考虑
that I have some self respect.        我是有自尊的。
K: What do you mean, self respect?        克:自尊,你是指什么?
H: What I am trying to say is that there is some place        希:我想说的是,我认同
at which I put an identification.        某个东西。
K: Why should I want to identify with anything, sir?        克:先生,为什么我想认同任何东西?
That makes immediate isolation.        那会立即造成隔绝。
H: For stability's sake.        希:为了安定。
K: Does isolation bring about stability?        克:隔绝会带来安定吗?
H: It gives one a sense of something hard and firm.        希:会给人一种稳固坚定的感觉。
K: Does it? Has it?        克:是吗?有吗?
We have had for the last five thousand years        过去五千年
nearly five thousands wars. Is that stability?        几乎有五千场战争。那是安定吗?
H: No.        希:不是。
K: Why don't we accept...        克:为什么我们不接受……
I won't go into all that. What is wrong with us?        那些我就不细谈了。我们到底怎么了?
H: Well, why don't we see this thing? You are saying that        希:那我们为什么看不到这件事?你是说
the root of the problem is that I continue to identify        问题的根源在于我不断地认同,
with one thing after another, if one doesn't work I just find        一个接一个地认同,如果一个不管用就找
something else. I don't stop identifying.        别的。我不停地认同。
K: Yes, sir, which breeds isolation.        克:是的,先生,这导致了隔绝。
H: But in your example about the person that is stuck in a rut,        希:但在你举的墨守成规的例子中,
you say, 'I don't have to identify, I can just step back        你说:“我不必认同,我只要退一步,
and look at this thing, and see if it is true.'        观察那个东西,看看是不是真的。”
K: Yes.        克:没错。
H: So, you are suggesting that there is something        希:所以,你提出有些东西
that is not identified, something that is free to look.        是无法认同的,有些东西可以自由地去看。
K: No. This leads to something else.        克:不是的。那会引向另一些东西。
Why do I want to identify myself?        为什么我想认同自己?
Probably, basically, the desire to be secure,        可能是,基本上是因为想要安全,
to be safe, to be protected.        想要平安,想要得到保护。
And that sense, it gives me strength.        而那种感觉带给我力量。
H: Strength, and purpose, direction.        希:力量、目的和方向。
K: It gives me strength. H: Yes.        克:那带给我力量。希:是的。
S: But this is a biological fact. It is not merely an illusion.        谢:但这是生物学事实。并不只是个幻觉。
And if we again, to come back to the animal kingdom, we see it there        如果我们再回到动物王国,我们看到那里
- deer go round in flocks, birds have flocks, bees have hives        ——鹿和鹿群居,鸟有鸟群,蜜蜂有蜂巢,
and they are identified with the hive in which they work.        它们认同它们工作的蜂巢。
K: But bees don't kill themselves, species don't kill themselves.        克:但蜜蜂不会自相残杀,那些物种不会自相残杀。
S: Well, they kill other, they kill other bees that invade their hive.        谢:不过,它们会杀别的群体,它们会杀侵犯它们蜂巢的蜜蜂。
They don't commit suicide. They kill others.        它们不会自杀。它们杀别的蜜蜂。
K: But we are!        克:但我们会!
S: Yes and no, bees do fight other bees that come into the hive.        谢:也是也不是。别的蜜蜂来犯,就一定会打起来。
K: Of course. Yes, I know, I've raised bees, I know.        克:当然。是的,我知道,我养过蜜蜂,我知道。
S: So, we see even in the animal kingdom this identification        谢:所以,我们看到即使在动物王国,这种对
with the group, in the social animals,        群体的认同,在群居动物当中,
and many social animals, and we are social animals.        很多群居动物当中都有这种现象,而我们就是群居动物。
K: Just a minute. Agree.        克:等下。我同意。
Are we by identifying ourselves with India,        我们自己认同印度
or China, or Germany, is that giving us security?        或者中国、德国吗?那会令我们感到安全吗?
S: To a limited extent it is. K: A limited extent.        谢:在有限的程度上是的。克:很有限。
S: And by identifying ourselves with our families does,        谢:而且认同家庭也会令我们感到安全,
because this whole question of responsibility        因为整个关于责任的问题
seems closely linked to it.        看起来也是密切相关的。
If I identify myself with my family,        如果我认同家庭,
feel duties towards them, protect - if my sister's insulted,        感到对他们负有责任,要挺身保护——如果我的姐妹受辱,
I rush to her defence, and make a big fuss about it, and threaten,        我冲出来护住她,小题大做,发出威胁,
if not actually kill the people who insulted her.        如果不是真的要杀死侮辱她的人的话。
K: We have no sisters. (Laughter) S: Yes, fortunately not.        克:我们没有姐妹。(笑)谢:是啊,所幸没有。
S: So, if I protect members of my family and defend,        谢:所以,如果我保护我的家人,为他们
rush to their defence, so an insult to them        挺身而出,那么对他们的侮辱或
or an attack on them is an insult to me, so I rush to their defence.        攻击就是对我的侮辱,所以我为他们挺身而出。
K: Of course.        克:当然。
S: There is a reciprocal obligation on their part,        谢:他们也负有同样的义务,
if I fall ill or sick they'll feed me and look after me,        如果我病了或不舒服,他们会给我吃饭、照顾我,
if I get arrested by the police they will try        如果我被警察抓了,他们会努力
and get me out of prison, and so on.        把我从监狱里救出来,如此等等。
So, it does give me a kind of security, it actually works.        所以,这确实给了我一种安全,那的确是有用的。
K: Of course.        克:当然。
S: And that is a very good reason for doing it, for most people.        谢:对大多数人而言,那个理由足够充分了。
K: But stretch it further from the family, to the community,        克:但是我们扩大范围来看,从家庭扩大到社区,
from the community to the nation, and so on,        从社区扩大到国家,等等,
that is a vast process of isolating.        那是一个大范围的孤立过程。
You are English, I am German, and we are at each other's throat.        你是英国人,我是德国人,我们跟彼此过不去。
And I say, for god's sake, this is so damn stupid!        而我要说,天啊,这实在太蠢了!
S: Well, it is not entirely stupid because it works        谢:哦,没那么蠢吧,因为某个程度上
to a certain extent. K: This is most impractical.        那么做是有用的。克:那是最不实际的。
It may work, but it's impractical, it is killing each other.        也许起点作用,然而并不实际,我们在互相残杀。
S: But we haven't killed each other yet, there are more human beings        谢:但我们还没有杀掉彼此,现在的人口比起以往任何时候都多。
than there have ever been before. So the system so far        所以这个系统到目前为止
has gone to the point where we are far from killing each other,        是可行的,我们远没有杀光彼此,
we have actually got to the point where we have got        实际上我们的人口在增长,
a bigger population than the world has ever seen.        现在是世界上人口最多的时代。
So, the system works only too well, for some reason.        所以,这个系统只是运行得太好了,因为某些原因。
K: So, you propose war to kill them off?        克:所以,你建议来场战争把他们给杀光?
S: No!        谢:当然不是!
But there is some aspect of it that does work, and some security        而是在某个方面,它的确起作用,而且
that is genuine that these things confer.        这些东西带来了一些真正的安全。
K: Yes, sir. At a certain level identification        克:没错,先生。在某个层面上,认同
has a certain importance. Right?        有一定的重要性。是吧?
But at a higher level,        但在更高的层面,
if you can call it higher, it becomes dangerous.        如果可以这么说的话,它就变得危险了。
That's all we are saying.        我们在说的就是这个。
Of course, if you are my brother you look after me.        当然,如果你是我的兄弟,你照顾我。
B: It is very hard to draw up a line,        博:很难分出一个界限,
you see, that starts spreading out.        你看,那种认同开始蔓延。
K: That's right, spreading out. B: You know, it slips.        克:没错,蔓延开来。博:你知道,它会偷偷越界。
K: That's is what I am so objecting to.        克:那就是我坚决反对的。
S: But you see, the question is where do you draw the line,        谢:但你看,问题在于你的界限在哪里,
because if you are my brother, then you have the tribal,        因为如果你是我的兄弟,你就会有一个部落、
the clan, or in India, the caste.        氏族或者印度的种姓。
K: That's it. Extend it.        克:没错。把范围扩大。
And then we say, 'I am Argentine,        然后我们就说:“我是阿根廷人,
you are British, he's French, we are at each other's...        你是不列颠人,他是法国人,我们敌视彼此……
economically, socially, culturally, we are murdering each other.        在经济上、社会上、文化上,我们在谋杀彼此。
And I say, that is so insane!        而我认为,那真是疯狂!
S: But where do you draw the line?        谢:但你的界限在哪里?
If you say the nation state is wrong, then what is wrong with the tribe        如果你说民族国家是错的,那部落或种姓有什么错呢,
or the caste, then you have got conflict between those.        那中间也有冲突。
We've got conflict between families. K: I wouldn't draw the line.        家庭跟家庭之间也有冲突。克:我不会划分界限。
I say, I am responsible as a human being        我认为,作为人类,我为这个世界
for what is happening in the world,        发生的一切负责,
because I am a human.        因为我是一个人。
And so what is happening in the world is this terrible division,        所以,这个世界就处于这样可怕的分裂中,
and I won't be a Hindu,        我不会去做一个印度教徒,
I won't be a Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist - nothing.        我不会去做一个天主教徒、新教徒、佛教徒——一概不做。
If there were a hundred people or a thousand people like that        如果有一百人或一千人能够这样,
they would begin to do something.        他们就会开始做一些事。
H: So you are saying that the problem comes up,        希:所以你的意思是,问题出现是由于
because I mistake my local security,        我对自己局部安全的错误理解,
I think that it rests in some local identification.        我认为那寄托于某些局部的认同中。
K: Yes, sir, which is isolation.        克:是的,先生,那即是隔绝。
And therefore in isolation there is no security.        因此在隔绝当中,没有安全。
And therefore there is no order.        因此也没有秩序。
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