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The Nature of the Mind 3 心的本质3

H: The Nature of the Mind        希:心的本质
Part Three        第三部分
The Need for Security        对安全的需要
This is one of a series of dialogues between J Krishnamurti,        这是J.克里希那穆提与
David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake, and John Hidley.        大卫.博姆、鲁伯特.谢尔德雷克和约翰.希德利进行的系列对话之一。
The purpose of these discussions is to explore essential questions        这些讨论的目的是探索最根本的
about the mind, what is psychological disorder,        心灵问题,即心理上的混乱
and what is required for fundamental psychological change.        以及根本性的心理变革所需为何。
J Krishnamurti is a religious philosopher, author, and educator,        J.克里希那穆提是一位宗教哲学家、作家和教育家,
who has written and given lectures on these subjects for many years.        他多年来就这些问题著书立说并进行演讲。
He has founded elementary and secondary schools        他在美国、英国和印度
in the United States, England, and India.        建立了几所小学和中学。
David Bohm is professor of theoretical physics        大卫.博姆是理论物理学的教授,
at Birkbeck College, London University in England.        就职于英国伦敦大学的伯克贝克学院。
He has written numerous books concerning theoretical physics        他著有多部著作,论述理论物理学
and the nature of consciousness.        和意识的本质。
Professor Bohm and Mr. Krishnamurti        博姆教授和克里希那穆提先生
have held previous dialogues on many subjects.        之前曾就很多问题进行过对话。
Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, whose recently published book        鲁伯特.谢尔德雷克是一位生物学家,新近发表了一部著作,
proposes that learning in some members of a species        提出一个物种中部分成员的学习过程
affects the species as a whole.        将会对这个物种的整体产生影响。
Dr. Sheldrake is presently consulting plant physiologist        谢尔德雷克博士现在担任
to the International Crops Research Institute        位于印度海得拉巴的国际农作物研究所的
in Hyderabad, India.        顾问植物生理学家。
John Hidley is a psychiatrist in private practice,        约翰.希德利是一名个人执业的精神病医生,
who has been associated with the Krishnamurti school        与位于加利福尼亚欧亥的克里希那穆提学校
in Ojai, California for the past six years.        已有六年的密切关系。
In the first two dialogues consideration has been given        在前两次对话中,主要考虑的是
to the process of self identification.        自我认同的过程。
A range of subjects has been related to this process        与这个过程有关的一系列话题
including the problem of suffering,        包括痛苦的问题、
the role of thinking and memory,        思考和记忆的作用、
images, and the uniqueness or commonality of consciousness.        意象以及意识的独特性或共性。
Can these processes be observed, and what is the relationship        能否观察这些过程,观察与秩序、责任和转变之间
of observation to order, responsibility and change?        有着怎样的关系?
Today's discussion focuses on the question:        今天的讨论集中在这个问题上:
is there such a thing as absolute psychological security?        有没有绝对的心理安全这回事?
H: We would like to talk about the question of whether there is        希:我们想探讨一下这个问题,即有没有
a deep security, whether the self can be dissolved.        一种深刻的安全,自我能否被消除。
You have suggested that        你曾经说过
if that's possible, then the problems        如果这是可能的,那么
that the individual brings to the office, the problems...        个人带到办公室去的那些问题,那些问题……
K: Sir, why do we seek security, apart from physical?        克:先生,我们为什么追求身体安全之外的安全呢?
Apart from terrestrial security,        除了生存安全之外,
why do we want security?        我们为什么想得到安全?
H: Well, we know moments of peace and happiness,        希:哦,我们知道有些时刻是和平的、快乐的,
and we want to stabilise that and hold that.        我们想把那样的状态稳定下来并且留住。
K: Then that becomes a memory.        克:然后那就变得了记忆。
H: Yes. K: Not actual security.        希:是的。克:那不是真正的安全。
A memory that one day you were happy,        记得有一天你很快乐,
and I wish one could go back to it.        而我希望能够重返那个时刻。
Or you project an idea and a hope someday to achieve it.        或者你投射出一个想法,希望哪天能够将它实现。
But why is it that human beings, probably throughout the world,        但是,为什么全世界的人类
seek security? What is the raison d'etre,        都追求安全呢?其缘由何在,
if I may put it, the demand for security?        如果我可以提出这个问题的话,为什么存在对安全的需要?
What makes people ask for security, psychologically?        是什么使得人们寻求心理上的安全?
H: Well, they're occupied, they're filled with their problems.        希:哦,他们被自己的问题所占据、所充满。
There's the feeling that if I can solve the problem,        有一种感觉认为,如果我能解决这个问题,
if I can find out what the right answer is, if...        如果我能找到正确的答案是什么,如果……
K: That's not security, surely.        克:那不是安全,当然不是。
There is great uncertainty,        那是巨大的不确定性,
great sense of emptiness in oneself, loneliness.        内心巨大的空虚感、孤独感。
Really, loneliness - let's take that for an example.        真的,孤独感——让我们以此为例。
H: OK.        希:好的。
K: I may be married, I may have children, and all the rest of it,        克:我也许结婚了,我也许有孩子,以及诸如此类的一切,
but I still feel isolated, lonely.        但我依然感觉孤立、隔绝。
And it's frightening, depressing,        而这令人害怕、令人沮丧,
and I realise it is isolating.        我也意识到这是一种隔绝。
After all, loneliness is the essence of isolation,        毕竟,孤独是隔绝的核心,
in which I have no relationship with anybody.        我身陷其中,与任何人都没有关系。
Is that one of the reasons why human beings seek security,        这是人类寻求安全、想要得到安全的
this desire for security? H: Yes, to fill that up.        原因之一吗?希:是的,为了填补空虚。
K: Or much deeper than that.        克:抑或远不止于此。
To be secure in my fulfilment,        在我的成就中感觉安全,
to be free of fear, free of my agony.        能够摆脱恐惧,摆脱我的痛苦。
I want to be free of all those, so that I can be completely secure,        我想要摆脱那一切,这样我就能彻底安全,
in peace and happiness. Is that what we want?        身处平静与幸福中。那是我们想要的吗?
H: Yes. K: Is that the reason why we seek?        希:是的。克:那是我为什么追求的原因吗?
H: And we want that to be stable over time.        希:我们也希望那种状态能够历久弥坚。
K: Stable, permanent - if there is anything permanent.        克:稳固、永恒——如果有任何永恒的东西的话。
Is that the reason why we crave this, demand, crave for security?        那就是我们渴望这些,想要、渴求安全的原因吗?
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: That means to be free from fear, and then I am totally secure.        克:那意味着摆脱恐惧,然后我就彻底安全了。
H: It feels like I have to be that way in order to function adequately.        希:感觉就好像我必须那样才能恰当地运转。
K: Function adequately comes later.        克:恰当地运转是后来的事情。
H: What do you mean?        希:你是什么意思?
K: If I am secure, I'll function. H: Yes.        克:如果我安全,我就会运转。希:是的。
K: If I am very anchored in something which I think is false or true,        克:如果我深深禁锢在某件事情上,无论我认为它对与错,
I'll act according to those two principles.        我就会根据那两个原则去行动。
But is it that human beings are incapable        但是,人类是不是没有能力
of solving this deep-rooted fear - for example, I am taking fear -        解决这根深蒂固的恐惧——我以恐惧为例——
and they have not been able to solve it.        他们没能解决这个问题。
H: Yes, that's right. K: Psychological fears.        希:对,是的。克:心理上的恐惧。
K: And to be free from that is to be so marvellously secure.        克:而摆脱恐惧就是如此奇妙的安全。
H: You are saying that if we can solve these problems        希:你是说如果我们能够
at a fundamental level.        从根本上解决这些问题。
K: Otherwise what's the point, how can I be totally secure?        克:否则有什么意义呢,我怎样才能彻底安全呢?
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: So, is it the physical security, of bread, of shelter,        克:所以,是不是身体安全,面包、住处、
food and clothes, spilling over to the psychological field?        衣食的安全,僭越了心理领域?
You understand what I mean?        你理解我的意思吗?
H: Do you mean, is that where the psychological feeling of the need        希:你是不是说,那是否就是需要安全的心理感受
for security comes from? K: Yes, partly.        的出处?克:是的,一部分是这个意思。
One must have food, and clothes, and shelter.        你必须有吃、有穿、有住处。
That's absolutely essential, otherwise you four        那是绝对必要的,否则你们四个
wouldn't be sitting here. H: Yes.        就不会坐在这里。希:是的。
K: In the search of that, psychologically also,        克:在追求那些的过程中,从心理上我也想要
I want to be equally secure.        同样的安全。
H: They seem to be equated.        克:它们似乎是同等的。
K: Yes, I'm questioning whether it is so.        克:是的,我在质疑是不是这么回事。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: Or the psychological desire to be secure prevents physical security.        克:抑或心理上对安全的需要妨碍了身体上的安全。
H: It seems like the psychological desire to be secure        希:似乎对心理安全的需要
arises out of the necessity to function in reality.        来源于在现实中运转的需要。
K: I want to be psychologically secure.        克:我想得到心理上的安全。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: So, I am attached to a group, a community, a nation.        克:所以,我依附于某个团体、某个社区、某个国家。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: Which then prevents me from being secure.        克:而这反而妨碍我得到安全。
Security means long-lasting security.        安全意味着持久的安全。
But if I identify myself, in my search for psychological security,        但是,如果在追求心理安全的过程中,我将自己
and attach myself to a nation, that very isolation        与某个国家相认同并依附于它,那么那种隔绝本身
is going to destroy me. H: Yes.        就会将我摧毁。希:是的。
K: So, why do we seek this?        克:那么,我们为什么还追求这个?
H: OK, then you're saying that there is a mistake,        希:好的,那你就是在说错误在于
which is that we identify ourselves,        我们将自己与
attach ourselves to something and seek security in that,        某些事物相认同、依附于它并从中寻找安全,
and that that's fundamentally wrong.        而这从根本上是错误的。
K: Yes. No, not fundamentally. I won't say right or wrong.        克:是的。不,不是根本上。我不会说对还是错。
H: OK. K: I am asking why?        希:好的。克:我是在问为什么?
Why do human beings do this?        人类为什么这么做?
A fact which is right through the world, it's not just        这是一个遍及全世界的事实,不仅仅是
for certain communities        某些社区的事实
- all human beings want to be so...        ——全人类都想要如此……
unshakable security.        不可动摇的安全。
H: Yes. K: Why?        希:是的。克:为什么?
B: Well, I think that people have some answers.        博:哦,我想人们会给出一些回答。
You see, if you say, there's a young child, or a baby,        你看,如果你说,有个小孩子,或者有个婴儿,
now, he feels the need to be loved by his parents, and it seems that        现在他感觉需要被他的父母爱,似乎
at a certain stage the infant has the need for a kind of        婴儿在某个阶段需要某种
psychological security, which he should grow out of, perhaps,        心理安全,也许从中他才能成长起来,
but since he isn't properly taken care of by his parents very often,        但是,由于他时常得不到父母恰当的照顾,
he begins to feel lost, as you say, alone, isolated,        他开始有迷失感,如你所说,感觉孤立、隔绝,
and there arises the demand that he become inwardly secure.        于是产生了想得到内心安全的需要。
K: A baby must be secure.        克:婴儿必须得到安全。
B: Yes, psychologically as well as physically, would you say?        博:是的,心理上以及身体上的安全,你说是吗?
K: Yes, there must be.        克:是的,必须有这样的安全。
B: Now, at some stage you would say, that it would change.        博:那么,你会不会说,在某些阶段,情况会发生变化。
K: Yes. B: I don't know what age.        克:是的。博:我不知道是在什么年纪。
K: Why… No, a certain age, a small baby,        克:为什么?不,在某个年纪,一个小婴儿,
or a young child, it must be protected.        或者一个小孩子,必须得到保护。
B: In every way, psychologically. K: Yes, psychologically...        博:各个方面都得到保护,心理上也是。克:是的,心理上……
B: It must not be shocked psychologically.        博:他不能在心理上受到惊吓。
K: You protect it with affection, taking it in your lap,        克:你用爱保护他,把他抱在腿上,
cuddling him or her, and holding his hand,        拥抱他或她,握着他的手,
you make him feel that he is loved, that he is cared for.        让他感觉到自己是被爱的、被关怀的。
That gives him a feeling - here is somebody,        那给他一种感觉——这里有个人,
who is looking after me, and there is security here.        在照顾着我,这里有安全。
B: Yes, and then I suppose, he will grow up not requiring that security.        博:是的,然后我想,他长大后就不会想要那种安全。
K: That's it. I am questioning, as he grows up,        克:是的。我在质疑,当他长大时,
and as he faces the world, why does he crave for security?        当他面对这个世界时,为什么会渴望安全?
B: Well, I think very few children ever have that love to begin with.        博:哦,我想很少有孩子从一开始就拥有那样的爱。
K: Oh, that's it. So is that the problem?        克:噢,是的。那么那就是问题所在吗?
B: Well, I don't know, but that's one factor in there.        博:哦,我不知道,但那是其中的一个因素。
K: That we really don't love?        克:是我们并非真的有爱吗?
And if one loves,        如果你有爱,
there is no need for security.        就不会需要安全。
You don't even think about security.        你甚至都不会想到安全。
If I love you, not intellectually, not        如果我爱你,不是从理智上,不是
because you give me comfort, sex, or this, or that,        因为你给了我舒适、性、这个或者那个,
if I really have this deep sense of love for another,        如果我真正拥有这种深深爱着别人的感觉,
what is the need for security?        那么安全还有什么必要?
It's my responsibility to see that you are secure.        确保你安全,是我的责任。
But you don't demand it. H: Yes.        而你并不需要。希:是的。
K: But human beings do. And does that mean        克:但是人类需要。那是不是意味着
we don't love another?        我们不爱别人?
H: Yes, it means that what we love is the...        希:是的,那意味着我们爱的是……
K: I love you because you give me something.        克:我爱你,是因为你给了我什么。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
You make me feel like I'm going to get that security which I crave.        你让我觉得能够得到我渴望的那种安全。
K: Yes. So, no, we are skirting around this. Why?        克:是的。所以,不,我们还在外围兜圈子。为什么?
Why do I want security, so that I feel completely content,        为什么我想得到安全,那样我就能感觉完全满足,
without fear, without anxiety, without agony, and so on?        没有恐惧、没有焦虑、没有痛苦等等?
Is fear the root of all this?        恐惧是这一切的根源吗?
H: Oh, we seem to have mentioned already several things        希:噢,我们似乎已经提到了几件事情
that are the root of it. As the baby grows up and isn't loved,        是根源所在。当孩子长大而不再被爱,
he feels the need for that, he remembers that,        他就会感觉需要那些,他记得那些,
he tries to return to that, or get that as an adult,        想要回到过去,或者作为一个成年人得到那些,
he's afraid because he's not protected,        他感到害怕,因为他没有受到保护,
and as an adult he tries to get that protection.        于是作为一个成年人,他试图得到那种保护。
K: Or, sir, is it unconsciously        克:抑或,先生,是不是
we know that the self, the me, the ego        我们下意识地知道自我、我、自己
is really totally unstable.        实际上是完全不稳定的。
H: You are saying that in its nature it's totally unstable?        希:你是说它本质上就是完全不稳定的?
K: In its nature, unstable.        克:它从本质上,就不稳定。
And therefore, there is this anxiety for security, outside or inside.        所以,会有对外界或内在安全的饥渴。
H: Why do you say it's totally unstable?        希:你为什么说它完全不稳定?
K: Isn't it?        克:不是吗?
Isn't our consciousness unstable?        我们的意识难道不是不稳定的吗?
H: It seems to have two sides to it. One side says that        希:这个问题似乎有两面。一方面说
if I could just get such and such, I would be stable.        如果我能得到如此这般,我就能够稳定。
K: Yes. And there is a contradiction to that.        克:是的。可是还存在与它相矛盾的一面。
I may not be.        我也可能是不稳定的。
H: I may not be. K: Yes, of course.        希:我也可能不稳定。克:是的,当然。
H: I'm not yet, but I will be. K: Will be.        希:我还没稳定,但我会的。克:你会。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: No, much more fundamentally, is not this...        克:不,更根本的是,这个……
the self itself in a state of movement, uncertainty,        自我本身就处于一种运动状态中,它不确定、
attached, fear in attachment - all that?        依恋、在依恋中感觉恐惧——难道不是这样吗?
That's a state of lack of stability.        那是一种缺乏稳定性的状态。
Therefore, I am asking, is that the reason        所以,我在问,那就是
that human beings unconsciously,        人类下意识地
knowing the instability of the self,        知道自我不稳定
want security - god, the saviour?        因而想得到安全——神明、救主的原因吗?
H: Wanting something absolute.        希:想得到某种绝对的东西。
K: Yes, completely... that'll give complete contentment.        克:是的,彻底的……它能带来彻底的满足。
Because our consciousness is its content.        因为我们的意识就是它的内容。
Right? H: Yes.        对吗?希:是的。
K: And the content is always in contradiction.        克:而这内容总是自相矛盾。
I believe... H: That's right.        我相信……希:是的。
K: ...and yet I'm frightened of not believing.        克:……而我害怕不相信。
H: That's why you're saying it's in essence unstable.        希:那就是你为什么说它从本质上不稳定。
K: Obviously, it is unstable. So clearly unstable.        克:显然它是不稳定的。它的不稳定是如此显而易见。
I want this thing, and some other desire comes along and says,        我想要这件东西,而另一个欲望过来说:
'Don't have that, for god's sake.' There is this contradiction,        “别要那个,看在老天的份上。”有这种矛盾,
there is duality, all that exists in our consciousnesS:         这种二元性,这一切都存在于我们的意识中:
fear, pleasure, fear of death,        恐惧、快乐,对死亡的恐惧,
you know all the content of our consciousness - all that.        你知道我们意识中的所有内容——那一切。
So that is unstable.        所以那是不稳定的。
H: Now, sensing all of that, people generally say,        希:那么,感觉到了这一切,人们通常会说:
'This problem is too deep, or too complex,        “这个问题太深了,或者太复杂了,
there's no way to solve it,        没有办法解决,
we can maybe just make some adjustments.'        我们也许只能做些调整。”
K: Yes, yes. And in that adjustment also there is lack of stability.        克:是的,是的。而那种调整依然缺乏稳定性。
So, unconsciously there must be craving for security.        所以,必然会下意识地渴望安全。
So, we invent god.        于是,我们发明了神。
H: We keep inventing lots of different things        希:我们不断发明出很多不同的东西来,
we hope will give us that security.        希望它们能带给我们安全。
K: We create god, he's our creation.        克:我们创造了神,他是我们的创造。
We are not the creation of God, I wish we were.        我们不是上帝创造出来的,我希望我们是。
We would be totally different.        那样我们就会完全是另一番模样。
So, there is this illusory desire for security.        所以,存在对安全的这种虚幻的渴望。
H: Wait a minute, why do you say that it's illusory?        希:等一下,你为什么说它是虚幻的?
K: Because they invent something, in which they hope they'll be secure.        克:因为他们发明了某些东西,希望从中能得到安全。
H: Oh, I see. Yes.        希:噢,明白了。是的。
K: So, if the content of our consciousness can be changed        克:所以,如果我们意识的内容能够得到改变
- quotes, changed - would there be need for security?        ——改变,加引号——那么还会需要安全吗?
H: If we could eliminate all these contradictions?        希:如果我们能够消除所有这些矛盾?
K: Yes, contradictions.        克:是的,矛盾。
H: Then maybe we would have the security,        希:那么我们也许就拥有了安全,
because our consciousness would be stable.        因为我们的意识将是稳定的。
K: So that maybe… We may not call it security.        克:所以,那也许是……我们也许不会称之为安全。
To be secure, which is a really disgusting desire, sorry.        想得到安全,真是一个令人作呕的欲望,对不起。
To be secure in what? About what?        什么中的安全?关于什么的安全?
Personally, I never thought about security. You might say, well,        对我个人而言,我从未想过安全。哦,你也许会说:
'You are looked after, you are cared for by others,'        “你被照顾得好好的,别人照料着你,”
and all the rest of it, therefore there is no need for you        以及诸如此类的话,所以你不需要
to think about security, but I never - I don't want security.        考虑安全的问题,但是我从不——我不想得到安全。
I need, of course, I need food, clothes and shelter,        我需要,当然,我需要食物、衣服和住处,
that's understood, somebody to...        这容易理解,人得……
H: But we're talking about psychological security.        希:但我们谈的是心理安全。
K: Yes, I'm talking of much deeper issue.        克:是的,我说的更为深层的问题。
H: And you're saying that that occurs because        希:你是说这种情形之所以会发生,是因为
the contents of consciousness are no longer contradictory.        意识的内容不再互相矛盾。
K: Is there a consciousness...        克:是否有一种意识……
It may not be what we know as consciousness,        它也许不是我们所知道的意识,
it may be something totally different.        它也许是某种截然不同的东西。
All that we know is fear, reward and pleasure,        我们所知道的只有恐惧、奖赏和快乐,
and death,        还有死亡,
and constant conflict in relationship - I love you, but...        以及关系中的无尽冲突——我爱你,但是……
H: Within limits. K: Within limits.        希:在局限之中。克:在局限之中。
I don't know if that's called love.        我不知道那是否被称为爱。
So, there is the content of consciousness is all that,        所以,意识的内容就是那一切,
which is me. My consciousness is me.        就是我。我的意识就是我。
In this complex, contradictory, dualistic existence,        在这个复杂的、矛盾的、二元性的存在中,
that very fact creates the demand for security.        这个事实本身就产生了对安全的需要。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: So, can we eliminate the self? (Laughs)        克:所以,我们能否消除自我?(众笑)
H: But we haven't - have we got to the self?        希:但是我们还没有——我们说到自我了吗?
It seems like there's somebody in there, in here, who's going        好像这里有那么一个人,
to juggle all these things and get rid of the contradictions.        打算把这一切都颠倒过来,然后再把矛盾清除掉。
K: But that means you are different from this, from consciousness.        克:但那意味着你不同于它、不同于意识。
H: Right.        希:对。
K: But you are that! You are pleasure, you are fear,        克:但你就是它!你就是快乐,你就是恐惧,
you are all belief - all that you are.        你就是所有的信念——你就是那一切。
I think we…        我想我们
don't please agree with what we are talking about, what I'm saying.        请不要同意我们所说的话,我所说的话。
It may be all tommyrot.        它们也许都是些瞎说八道。
H: I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't agree with that.        希:我想有很多人不会赞同这些说法。
I think that they would say that...        我想他们会说……
K: I know there're a lot of people who wouldn't agree,        克:我知道很多人会不同意,
because they haven't gone into it.        因为他们没有探索过这个问题。
They just want to brush all this aside.        他们只想把这一切都扫除。
H: Let's look at this. Is there a self that's separate, that's going        希:我们来看看这个问题。有没有一个分离的自我,
to be able to somehow iron out these contradictions?        能够在某种程度上清除这些矛盾?
K: No!        克:没有!
S: But how do you know? I mean, it seems to me that there is a...        谢:可是你怎么知道呢?我是说,在我看来,有某个……
at least, it may be illusory, but it's very easy to think        至少有,也许这是虚幻的,但很容易就会认为
that one is separate from some of these problems,        你与这些问题是分开的,
and that there's something inside one which can make decisions.        你内心有某种东西能够做出决定。
K: Doctor, am I separate from my fear?        克:博士,我与我的恐惧是分开的吗?
Am I separate from the agony I go through? The depression?        我与我经历的痛苦、沮丧是分开的吗?
S: Well, I think that there's something within one,        谢:哦,我想人内心有某种东西,
which can examine these things, and that's why it indicates        可以审视这些事情,那就是为什么看起来
there is some kind of separation.        存在某种分离。
K: Because there is the observer separate from the observed.        克:因为有个观察者与所观之物相分离。
S: Yes. K: Is that so?        谢:是的。克:是这么回事吗?
S: Well, it seems to be so. K: It seems to be so!        谢:哦,看起来是这样。克:看起来是这样!
S: Now, this seems to be the problem, that it does seem to be so.        谢:而这似乎就是问题所在,即看起来并不是这么回事。
I mean, in my own experience, of course, and many other people's,        我是说,以我自己的经验,当然,还有很多其他人的经验,
it does indeed seem that there is an observer observing things        看起来确实有个观察者在观察事物,
like fear and one's own reactions. And it comes out most clearly,        比如恐惧和自身的反应。而且我发现
I find, in insomnia, if one's trying to sleep,        失眠的时候,这一点体现得最明显,如果你努力想要入睡,
there's one part of one which says, 'That is going on        你的一部分说:“这都是些
with silly worries and ridiculous thoughts, round and round,'        愚蠢的思虑和可笑的想法,在来回不停地转,”
there's another part of one that says, 'I really want to sleep,        你的另一部分说:“我真的想睡觉,
I wish I could stop all these silly thoughts.'        我希望我能够停止所有这些愚蠢的想法。”
And there one has this actual experience        此时你就有这种切实的体验,
of an apparent separation. K: Yes. Of course, of course.        能感受到明显的分离。克:是的。当然,当然。
S: So, this isn't just a theory, it's an actual fact of experience        谢:所以,这不仅仅是一个理论,这实际上是一个真实的体验,
that there is this kind of separation.        有这种分离存在。
K: I agree, I agree.        克:我同意,我同意。
But why does that division exist?        但是这种分裂为什么会存在?
S: Well, this is a good... K: Who created the division?        谢:哦,这是一个好……克:谁制造了这种分裂?
S: It may just be a fact.        谢:这也许只是一个事实。
K: What may?        克:什么也许?
S: It may just be a fact. K: Is that so? I want to examine it.        谢:这也许只是一个事实。克:是吗?我想检验一下。
S: Yes, so do I. I mean, is it indeed a fact that consciousness,        谢:是的,我也想。我是说,这是否真是一个事实,即意识
as it were, has levels, some of which can examine others,        如它所表现的那样,是有层次的,某个层次可以检视其他的层次,
one at a time?        一次检视其中一个?
K: No. Would you kindly consider, is fear different from me?        克:不。请你能不能考虑一下,恐惧不同于我吗?
I may act upon fear, I may say, 'I must suppress it,        我可以对恐惧采取行动,我可以说:“我必须压抑它,
I may rationalise it, I might transcend it,' but the fear is me.        我可以将它合理化,我可以超越它,”但恐惧就是我。
S: Well, we often... K: I only invent the separation        谢:哦,我们经常……克:我只不过发明了那种分离,
where I want to act upon it.        然后我就可以对它采取行动。
But otherwise I am fear.        否则我就会恐惧。
S: The common and ordinary way of analysing it would be to say        谢:分析这个问题通常所采用的方式是
'I feel afraid,' as if the afraidness was separate from the I.        说“我觉得害怕,”就好像害怕和我是分开的。
I want to get out of this state of feeling afraid,        我想走出这种感觉害怕的状态,
so I want to escape from it, leaving the fear behind,        所以我逃离它,把恐惧远远抛在身后,
and the I will pass beyond it and somehow escape it.        我会超越它,并在某种程度上避开它。
This is the normal way we think. K: I know.        这是我们通常的思维方式。克:我知道。
S: So, what's wrong with that?        谢:那么,这有什么不对吗?
K: You keep up this conflict.        克:你延续了这种冲突。
B: But I think, he is saying it may be inevitable.        博:但我想他说的是那也许是不可避免的。
S: It may be inevitable, you see. K: I question it.        谢:你看,它也许是不可避免的。克:我质疑这一点。
B: Well... How do you propose to show it's not inevitable?        博:哦……你怎么能说明它并不是不可避免的?
K: First of all, when there is anger, at the moment of anger        克:首先,当愤怒时,在愤怒出现的那一刻,
there is no separation.        是没有分离的。
Right?        对吗?
S: When you're very angry... K: Of course.        谢:当你非常愤怒时……克:当然。
S: ...what we normally say is you lose control of yourself,        谢:……我们通常会说你对自己失去了控制,
and the separation disappears, you become the anger, yes.        然后分离消失了,你变成了那愤怒,是的。
K: At the moment when you are really angry, there is no separation.        克:在你真的非常愤怒的那一刻,并不存在分离。
The separation only takes place after.        分离是之后才发生的。
'I have been angry.' Right?        “我生气了。”对吗?
Now, why? Why does this separation take place?        那么,为什么?为什么会发生这种分离?
S: Through memory.        谢:因为记忆。
K: Through memory, right. Because I have been angry before.        克:因为记忆,对。因为我以前生过气。
So, the past is evaluating,        所以,过去在评判,
the past is recognising it.        过去把它识别了出来。
So, the past is the observer.        所以,过去是观察者。
B: That may not be obvious. For example,        博:这点也许并不那么明显。比如说,
I may have physical reactions that go out of control,        我也许有些身体反应失控了,
like sometimes the hand or the body,        就像有时候手或者身体会失控,
and I say, 'I am observing those physical reactions        于是我说:“我观察到这些身体反应
going out of control and I'd like to bring them back in.'        失控了,我想让它们回到掌控之中。”
I think somebody might feel the same way,        我想有人也许会有同样的感受,
that his mental reactions are going out of control,        即他的心理反应失控了,
and that they have momentarily escaped his control,        它们暂时脱离他的控制,
and he's trying to bring them back in.        于是他想把它们扳回来。
Now, that's the way it may look or feel to many people.        而这也许正是很多人看到或者感受到的样子。
K: So what?        克:那又如何?
B: Well, then it is not clear.        博:哦,那就不太清楚了。
Have we made it clear that that is not the case?        我们有没有弄清楚情形并不是这样的?
K: Sir, I am trying to point out,        克:先生,我正想指出来,
and I don't know if I made myself clear:        我不知道我有没有把自己的意思说清楚:
when one is frightened, actually,        当我真的很害怕时,
there's no me separate from fear.        并不存在一个与恐惧分离的我。
K: When there is a time interval, there is the division.        克:如果有一个时间间隔,就会有分裂。
And time interval, time is thought.        有时间间隔,时间是思想。
And when thought comes in,        当思想介入,
then begins the division.        分裂就开始了。
Because thought is memory,        因为思想是记忆,
the past.        是过去。
S: Thought involves memory - yes.        谢:思想引入了记忆——是的。
K: Yes, involves memory, and so on.        克:是的,引入记忆,等等。
So, thought, memory, knowledge, is the past.        所以,思想、记忆、知识是过去。
So, the past is the observer        所以,过去是观察者,
who says, 'I am different from fear, I must control it.'        它说:“我不同于恐惧,我必须控制它。”
H: Let's go through this very slowly, because it's seems like        希:让我们慢慢地探讨这个问题,因为我们的经验似乎是
the experience is that the observer is the present.        观察者是现在。
It seems like he's saying, 'I'm here now,        似乎他在说:“我此刻在这里,
and what am I going to do about this the next time it comes up.'        下次再出现这种情况时,我该怎么办。”
K: Yes. But the 'what am I going to do about it' is the response        克:是的。但是“我该怎么办”
of the past, because you have already had that kind of experience.        是过去的反应,因为你已经有过了那种经验。
Sir, haven't you had fear? H: Surely.        先生,你有过恐惧吗?希:当然。
K: Deep, you know, something, a fear that has really shaken…        克:深深的某种东西,你知道,一种真正撼动你的恐惧……
H: Yes. K: ...devastating one.        希:是的。克:……具有毁灭性的那种。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: And at that second there is no division,        克:在那一瞬间没有分裂,
you are entirely consumed by that.        你完全被那恐惧所震慑。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: Right? H: Right.        克:对吗?希:对。
K: Now, then thought comes along and says, 'I've been afraid        克:然后,思想过来说:“我害怕了,
because of this and because of that, now I must defend myself,        因为这个、因为那个,现在我必须保护自己,
rationalise fear,' and so on, so on, so on. It's so obvious.        将恐惧合理化,”等等,等等。这非常明显。
What are we discussing? H: OK.        我们在讨论什么?希:好的。
B: I think, coming back again to the physical reaction,        博:我想,再回到身体反应这个问题上,
which can also consume you, and at the next moment you say,        那也能把你完全占据,然后接下来的一刻你说:
'I didn't notice it at the time,' thought comes in and says,        “我当时没有注意到,”思想进来说:
'That's a physical reaction.'        “那是一种身体反应。”
K: Yes. B: Now I know it,        克:是的。博:现在我知道了,
what is the difference of these two cases,        这两种情形的不同之处在哪里,
that in the second case it would make sense to say,        在第二种情形下,你可以说:
'I know that I have reacted this way before,' right?        “我知道我以前有过这种反应,”对吗?
I can take such and such an action.        我可以采取如此这般的行动。
K: I don't quite follow this.        克:这些我没太听懂。
B: Somebody can feel that it's true, I get overwhelmed by a reaction,        博:有些人会觉得这是真的,我被某个反应所淹没,
and thought comes in. But in many areas        然后思想进入。但是在很多方面,
that's the normal procedure for thought to come in.        让思想进入是通常的程序。
If something shattering happens, and then a moment later        如果有惊人的事情发生,过了一会之后,
you think, what was it? Right? K: Yes.        你会想:那是什么?对吗?克:是的。
In some cases that would be correct, right?        博:在某些情况下那是对的,对吗?
K: Quite right.        克:很对。
B: Now, why is it in this case it is not?        博:那么,为什么这种情形下就不对?
K: Ah, I see what you mean.        克:啊,我明白你的意思了。
Answer it, sir, you are… Answer it.        回答它,先生,你……回答这个问题。
You meet a rattler on a walk. B: Yes.        你在路上遇到了一条响尾蛇。博:是的。
K: Which I have done very often. You meet a rattler,        你看到一条响尾蛇,
it rattles, and you jump.        它摇动尾巴沙沙作响,然后你跳了起来。
That is physical, self-protective        这是身体为了自我保护做出的
intelligent response.        智慧的反应。
That's not fear.        那不是恐惧。
B: Right. Not psychological fear. K: What?        博:对。不是心理恐惧。克:什么?
B: It has been called a kind of fear.        博:那被认为是一种恐惧。
K: I know, I don't call that psychological fear.        克:我知道,我不把它叫做心理恐惧。
B: No, it's not psychological fear, it's a simple physical reaction...        博:不,那不是心理恐惧,那只是一种身体反应……
K: Physical reaction... B: ...of danger.        克:身体反应……博:……对危险的反应。
K: ...which is an intelligent reaction not to be bitten by the rattler.        克:……那是为了不让响尾蛇咬到,而做出的智慧的反应。
B: Yes, but a moment later I can say, 'I know that's rattler,'        博:是的,但顷刻之后,我会说:“我知道那是响尾蛇,”
or it's not a rattler, I may discover it's not a rattler,        或者那不是响尾蛇,我也可能发现那不是一条响尾蛇,
it's another snake which is not so dangerous.        是另一种不那么危险的蛇。
K: No, not so dangerous, then I pass it by.        克:是,不那么危险,然后我走过去。
B: But then thought comes in and it's perfectly all right.        博:但是然后思想会进入,而这就完全没有问题。
K: Yes. B: Right?        克:是的。博:对吗?
K: Yes.        克:是的。
B: But here, when I am angry or frightened...        博:但是这里,当我生气或者害怕时……
K: Then thought comes in. B: And it's not all right.        克:然后思想就会进来。博:那就不太对了。
K: It's not all right. B: Yes.        克:那就不太对了。博:是的。
K: Oh, I see what you are trying to get at.        克:噢,我明白你想说什么了。
Why do I say it is not all right?        我为什么说那就不太对了?
Because fear is devastating,        因为恐惧是毁灭性的,
it blocks one's mind, thought, and all the rest of it,        它阻断心灵和思维,以及等等的一切,
one shrinks in that fear.        你在那恐惧中缩作一团。
B: Yes, I think I see that. You mean that possibly that        博:是的,我想我明白这点。你的意思可能是
when thought comes in, it cannot possibly come in rationally        当思想进入,在恐惧当中它不可能
in the midst of fear, right? K: Yes.        理性地进入,对吗?克:是的。
B: Is that what you mean? K: That's what I'm trying to say.        博:你是这个意思吗?克:这就是我想说的意思。
B: So, in the case of physical danger, it could still come in rationally.        博:那么,在有身体危险的情况下,它仍然可以理性地进入。
K: Yes. Here it becomes irrational. B: Yes.        克:是的。在这里就变得不理性。博:是的。
K: Why, I am asking, why?        克:为什么,我在问,为什么?
Why doesn't one clear up all this awful mess?        为什么你不清除掉所有这些乱七八糟的东西?
H: Well, it isn't clear.        希:哦,这点并不清楚。
K: Look, sir, it is a messy consciousness.        克:你看,先生,这是一个乱糟糟的意识。
H: Yes, it's a messy consciousness.        希:是的,这是一个乱糟糟的意识。
K: Messy consciousness, contradicting...        克:乱七八糟的意识,自相矛盾……
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: …frightened, so many fears, and so on, it's a messy consciousness.        克:害怕,有如此之多的恐惧,等等,那是一个凌乱无比的意识。
Now, why can't we clear it up?        那么,我们为什么不能把它打扫干净呢?
H: Well, it seems we are always trying to clear it up after the fact.        希:哦,我们好像总是想在事后再打扫干净。
K: No, I think the difficulty lies, we don't recognise deeply        克:不,我认为困难在于,我们没有深刻意识到
this messy consciousness is me.        这个乱糟糟的意识就是我。
And if it is me, I can't do anything!        如果它就是我,我就什么也做不了!
I don't know if you get the point.        我不知道你有没有明白这一点。
S: You mean we think that there's a me        谢:你是说我们认为有一个我
separate from this messy consciousness.        与这个混乱的意识是分开的。
K: We think we are separate. And therefore we are accustomed,        克:我们以为自己是分开的。所以我们习惯了
it is our conditioning, to act upon it.        对那个意识采取行动,这就是我们的制约。
But I can't very well do that        但是我无法做好这件事,
with all this messy consciousness which is me.        因为有着这个混乱无比的意识,也就是我。
So, the problem then arises, what is action?        所以,问题就产生了:什么是行动?
We are accustomed to act        我们习惯于
upon the messy consciousness.        对这个混乱的意识采取行动。
When there is realisation of the fact        当我意识到这个事实,
that I can't act, because I am that.        即我无法行动,因为我就是那个意识。
H: Then what is action? K: That is non-action.        希:那么行动是什么呢?克:是不行动。
H: OK.        希:好。
K: Ah, that's not OK, that is the total difference.        克:啊,那不是好,那是彻底的不同。
H: Yes, I think I understand. On the one hand there's        希:是的,我想我明白了。一方面,
the action of consciousness on itself which just perpetuates things.        意识对自己采取行动,而这反而使事态无止境地延续下去。
And seeing that, then it ceases to act.        而看到了这一点后,它就停止了行动。
K: It's not non-violence. Sorry.        克:这并不是非暴力。对不起。
S: Sorry, sir, you're saying that normally we have the idea        谢:对不起,先生,你说我们通常有这样的想法,
that there's a self which is somehow separate        即有一个在某种程度上与
from some of the contents of our messy consciousness.        我们混乱意识的某些内容相分离的我。
K: That's right, that's right, sir.        克:对,对,先生。
S: If someone tells us we're wonderful, we don't want        谢:如果有人告诉我们我们很棒,我们就不想
to be separate from that, but if we feel afraid        与那个意识分开,但是如果我们觉得害怕,
and if somebody tells we're awful,        如果有人说我们非常糟糕,
we do want to be separate from that.        我们就想跟那个意识分开。
K: Quite. (Laughs)        克:很对。(众笑)
S: So, it's rather selective. But nevertheless we do feel        谢:所以,这相当有选择性。但尽管如此,我们还是觉得
there's something in us which is separate from the contents        我们身上有某种东西
of this messy consciousness. We normally act in such a way        与这个混乱意识的内容是分开的。我们通常的行为方式正是这样,
as to change either the contents of the consciousness,        要么想改变这个意识的内容,
or our relation to them, or our relation to the world, and so on.        要么想改变我们与它们或者与这个世界等等的关系。
But we don't normally examine this apparent separation        但是我们通常不审视
between the self, the me, and the contents of the messy consciousness.        自我、我和这个混乱意识的内容之间这种显而易见的分离。
That's something we don't challenge. Now, you're suggesting        那是我们不去质疑的东西。现在,你指出
that in fact, this separation, which we can actually experience        事实上,我们实际上都能体会到的这种分离,
and do, most of us do experience,        我们大部分人也确实能够体验到,
is in fact something we ought to challenge and look at,        它实际上是我们应该质疑和审视的东西,
and we ought to face the idea,        我们也应该面对这个想法,
that we actually are the messy consciousness        即我们实际上就是这个混乱的意识,
and nothing other. K: Of course. It's so obvious.        而不是别的什么。克:当然。这显而易见。
S: Well, it isn't obvious, it's very non-obvious,        谢:哦,这不明显,这非常不明显,
and it's a very difficult thing to realise, because        这是一件非常难以认识到的事情,因为
one's very much in the habit of thinking one is separate from it.        人非常习惯于认为自己与那个意识是分开的。
K: So, it's our conditioning,        克:所以,这是我们的制约,
can we move away from our conditioning?        我们能摆脱我们的制约吗?
Our conditioning is me.        我们的制约就是我。
And then I act upon that conditioning, separating myself.        然后我对那制约采取行动,把自己分离开来。
But if I am that        但是,如果我就是那个意识
- no action, which is the most positive action.        ——就不会有行动,而这是最积极的行动。
H: The way that that would be heard, I'm afraid, is that        希:恐怕,有人听到这番话会以为
if I don't act on it it's just going to stay the way it is.        如果我不对它采取行动,它就会保持原状。
K: Ah!        克:啊!
S: You're suggesting that by recognising this, there's a sort of        谢:你说通过认识到这一点,就会有一个
the process of recognising it, facing up to...        认出它的过程,去面对……
K: It's not facing up. Who is to face up? (Laughs) Not recognise.        克:那不是面对。谁来面对呢?(众笑)不是认出。
Who is to recognise it? You see, we are always thinking in those terms.        谁来认出它呢?你看,我们总是以这样的方式思考。
I am that, full stop.        我就是那个意识,句号。
We never come to that realisation,        我们从未彻底地
totally.        认识到这一点。
There is some part of me which is clear, and that clarity is going        我的一部分是清晰的,而这清晰的部分将
to act upon that which is not clear.        对不清晰的部分采取行动。
Always this goes on.        总是这样。
S: Yes. K: I am saying,        谢:是的。克:我是说,
the whole content of one's consciousness is unclear, messy.        人意识的整个内容都是不清晰的、混乱的。
There is no part of it that's clear.        没有一个部分是清晰的。
We think there is a part,        我们以为有一个部分,
which is the observer, separating himself from the mess.        那就是观察者,把他自己与混乱分开。
So, the observer is the observed.        所以,观察者即被观察者。
Gurus, and all that.        古鲁们,以及所有那些。
B: You were raising the question of action.        博:你提出了行动的问题。
If that is the case, how is action to take place?        如果情况是这样的,那么行动如何发生呢?
K: When there is perception of that which is true,        克:当洞察到了真相,
that very truth is sufficient, it is finished.        那真相本身就足够了,事情就结束了。
B: Yes. You have said also, for example, that        博:是的。你也说过,比如,
that mess itself realises its own messiness,        那混乱的意识认识到自身的混乱,
right? K: Yes. Messiness, it's finished.        对吗?克:是的,混乱,那就结束了。
S: Sir, are you suggesting, the realisation of the messiness        谢:先生,你是不是说,对混乱的认识
itself in some way dissolves the messiness?        本身就以某种方式消除了混乱?
K: Yes. Not a separative realisation that I am messy.        克:是的。并不是以一种分离的方式认识到我很混乱。
The fact is consciousness is messy, full stop.        事实是意识很混乱,句号。
And I can't act upon it.        我无法对它采取行动。
Because previously acting upon it was a wastage of energy.        因为之前对它的行动是一种能量的浪费。
Because I never solved it.        因为我从未解决它。
I have struggled, I have taken vows,        我努力过,我许下了誓言,
I have done all kinds of things to resolve this messy stuff.        我做过各种各样的事情来解决这堆混乱的东西。
And it has never been cleared.        而它从未被清除过。
It may partially, occasionally...        它或许局部地、偶尔地……
H: Well, I think that's another aspect of this. In therapy,        希:哦,我认为那是这件事的另一个方面。在治疗中,
or in our own lives, we seem to have insights that are partial,        或者在我们自己的生活中,我们似乎会有局部的洞察,
that we clear up a particular problem and gain some clarity        我们清楚了某个特定的问题,并在某段时间内得到了某种清晰
and order for a time.        和秩序。
And then the thing returns        然后问题会再回来,
in some other form or... K: Yes, yes.        以另一种形式或者……克:是的,是的。
H: ...the same form.        希:……同样的形式。
You're suggesting that the thing needs to be done        你说问题需要
across the board in some way. K: You see, sir,        以某种全盘的方式来处理。克:你看,先生,
before, the observer acted upon it,        以前,观察者对它采取行动,
upon the messy consciousness.        对那个混乱的意识。
Right? H: Yes.        对吗?希:是的。
K: Saying, 'I'll clear this up, give me time,' all the rest of it.        克:说:“我要清理它,给我点时间,”等等。
And that's a wastage of energy. H: Right.        而这是浪费能量。希:对。
K: When the fact that you are that - you are not wasting energy.        克:当认识到你就是那个意识这个事实——你就不会浪费能量。
Which is attention. I don't know if you want to go into this.        那就是关注。我不知道你是不是愿意探讨这个问题。
S: No, this is very interesting. Please do.        谢:不,这很有意思。请继续。
K: Would we agree that acting upon it is a wastage of energy?        克:我们都同意对它采取行动是浪费能量吗?
H: Yes. This creates more disorder.        希:是的。这会制造更多的混乱。
K: No. It creates more disorder,        克:不。它会制造更多混乱,
and there is this constant conflict between me and the not me.        我和非我之间有着这种不停的冲突。
The me who is the observer,        我是观察者,
and I battle with it, control it, suppress it, anxious, worry,        我与它作斗争,控制它、压抑它,焦虑、担忧,
you follow? Which is all essentially wastage of energy.        你明白吗?这实际上都是能量的浪费。
Whereas, this messy consciousness is me.        然而,这个混乱的意识就是我。
I have come to realise that through attention.        通过关注,我开始意识到这一点。
Not 'I have come to realise,' sorry. B: Would you say that        不是“我开始意识到,”对不起。博:你会不会说
the consciousness itself has come to realise it?        那个意识本身开始认识到这一点?
K: Yes. B: I mean, it's not me, right?        克:是的。博:我是说,那不是我,对吗?
K: Yes.        克:是的。
Which is total attention I am giving to this consciousness,        那是我对这个意识所付出的全然关注,
not 'I am' - there is attention and inattention.        并非“我是”——有关注和漫不经心。
Inattention is wastage of energy.        漫不经心是能量的浪费。
Attention is energy.        关注是能量。
When there is observation that consciousness is messy,        当观察到那个意识是混乱的,
that fact can only exist when there is total attention.        只有全然关注时,那个事实才能存在。
And when there is total attention, it doesn't exist any more, confusion.        而当有全然的关注时,混乱将不复存在。
It's only inattention that creates the problems.        只有漫不经心才会制造问题。
Refute it! (Laughs)        驳倒它!(众笑)
S: But, sir, I didn't understand entirely...        谢:但是,先生,我并没有完全明白……
This total attention that you're talking about        你所说的这种全然关注
would only be able to have this effect        若要取得这样的效果,
if it somehow was something        在某种程度上需要
completely in the present and devoid of memory.        完全身处现在并清空了记忆。
K: Of course, of course, attention is that.        克:当然,当然,关注正是如此。
If I attend to what you have said just now,        如果我关注你刚才所说的话,
- devoid of memory, which is attention -        ——去除了记忆,那就是关注——
I listen to you not only with the sensual ear,        我就会不仅仅用耳朵这项器官来听,
but with the other ear, which iS:         还会用另外的耳朵,也就是:
I am giving my whole attention to find out what you are saying,        我会付出我全部的注意力去弄明白你所说的话,
which is actually in the present.        那是真正地处于此时此刻。
In attention there is no centre.        关注中没有中心。
S: Because the attention and the thing attended to        谢:因为关注与被关注的对象
become one, you mean.        成为了一体,这是你的意思。
You mean there's no centre in the attention, because        你说关注中没有中心,因为
the attention is all there is, the thing attended to        关注就是此时所有的一切,被关注的事物
and the attention is all there is.        和关注就是此时所有的一切。
K: Ah, no, no. There is messiness, because I have been inattentive.        克:啊,不,不。有混乱,因为我一直漫不经心。
Right? S: Yes.        对吗?谢:是的。
K: When there is the observation of the fact that        克:当观察到了这个事实,
the observer is the observed,        即观察者就是被观察者,
and that state of observation,        在那种观察状态中
in which there is no observer as the past, that is attention.        没有作为过去的观察者,这就是关注。
Sir, I don't know if you have gone into the question        先生,我不知道你有没有探讨过
of meditation here. That's another subject.        冥想这个问题。那是另一个话题。
H: That may be a relevant subject.        希:那也许是一个相关的话题。
It seems that what you're talking about may happen partially.        好像你所说的事情可以局部地发生。
K: Ah! It can't happen, then you keep partial mess and partial not mess.        克:啊!它不能那样发生,那样你就会继续部分混乱、部分不混乱。
We're back again to the same position.        我们又回到了同样的状况。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
S: But do you think this kind of attention you're talking about        谢:但是,你是不是认为你所说的这种关注
is the sort of thing that many people experience        是很多人偶尔能体验到的一种情形,
occasionally in moments of great beauty, or occasionally a piece        偶尔在某些时刻见到壮丽的美景,或者偶尔听到一首
of music they're really enjoying, they lose themselves, and so on?        他们真正陶醉的乐曲时,他们忘我地沉浸于其中,等等之类?
Do you think that many of us have glimpses of this        你是不是认为我们很多人在这类体验中
in these kinds of experiences?        能够对它有偶尔一瞥?
K: That's it. That's it. When I see a mountain,        克:是的,就是这样。当我看到一座山峰,
the majesty, the dignity and the depth of it drives away myself.        它的壮丽、庄严和深邃驱散了自我。
A child with a toy, the toy absorbs him.        玩着玩具的孩子,那玩具吸引了他。
The mountain has absorbed me,        山峰吸引了我,
toy has absorbed the child.        玩具吸引了孩子。
I say, that means there is something outside,        我说,那意味着外面存在某种东西
which will absorb me,        吸引我、
which will make me peaceful.        让我变得安静。
Which means an outside agency that'll keep me quiet        那意味着一个外在的媒介能使我安静
- god, prayer, looking up to something or other.        ——神明、祈祷、求助于此或彼。
If I reject an outside agency completely,        如果我彻底摒弃外在的媒介,
nothing can absorb me.        就没什么能够吸引我。
Let's say, if you absorb me, when you are gone I am back to myself.        比如说,如果你吸引了我,当你离开时,我就会回到自己原来的样子。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: So, I discard any sense of external agency        克:所以,我摒弃任何意义上的
which will absorb me.        能够吸引我的外在媒介。
So I am left with myself, that's my point.        于是我只剩下自己,这就是我的意思。
H: I see. So you're suggesting that when this happens partially        希:我明白了。所以你说当这件事情从局部上发生时,
it's because we're depending on something.        那是因为我们依赖某些东西。
K: Yes, of course. H: I see.        克:是的,当然。希:我明白了。
K: It's like my depending on my wife. H: Or my therapist, or my problem.        克:就像我依赖我妻子那样。希:或者我的治疗师,或我的问题。
K: Something or other. H: Yes.        克:这个或者那个。希:是的。
K: Like a Hindu, Catholic, or anybody, they depend on something.        克:就像一个印度教徒、天主教徒或者什么人,他们依赖某些东西。
Therefore dependence demands attachment.        所以依赖需要有所依附。
H: Now, it's possible to listen to you say this, and have the idea        希:那么,听你说了这些,对你所说的话有了些概念之后,
of what you are talking about, and try and do that.        可能会试着去那么做。
K: Ah, you can't do it! That means you are acting again.        克:啊!你不能那么做!那意味着你又有所行动了。
You want something out of it. In exchange,        你想从中得到些什么。作为交换,
I'll give you this, you give me that. That's just a trade.        我给你这个,你给我那个。这只不过是一种交易。
Here it's not like that, you are enquiring into something        这里说的不是那回事,你所探询的事情
which demands a great deal of thought,        需要大量的思考、
great deal of intelligence,        大量的智慧
and attention that says, 'Look, why is there        和关注,说:“看,世界上为什么会有
this division, this mess in the world?'        这种分裂、这种混乱?”
Because our consciousness is messy and so the world is messy.        因为我们的意识混乱不堪,所以世界就是混乱的。
So, from that arises, is it possible to be free of the self?        那么,从中就提出了问题:有没有可能摆脱自我呢?
Consciousness, the messy consciousness, is the self.        意识,这个混乱的意识,就是自我。
S: It is not possible to be free from the contents of consciousness,        谢:不可能摆脱意识的内容
different experiences, as long as my eyes are open,        和各种经验,只要我的眼睛是睁开的,
I'm looking, I see all sorts of different things.        我在看,我看到各种各样的事情。
Now, what you were saying about the attention,        而你所说的关注,
when one's looking at a mountain, for example, are you suggesting        例如,当你看着一座山时的关注,你是不是说
that if I have that same kind of attention        如果我对我所经历的一切
to everything I experience, that then this is the...        有同样的关注,那么这就是……
K: You see, again, you experience. (Laughs)        克:你看,又是你去经历。(众笑)
S: Yes, well, all right, but... K: But you are the experience.        谢:是的,好吧,但是……克:而你就是那经验。
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: Right? That means, there is no experience.        克:对吗?那意味着,没有经验。
S: (Laughs) There's just attention, you mean.        谢:(笑)你是说,只有关注。
K: Experience involves remembrance,        克:经验涉及到记忆、
time, which is the past.        时间,也就是过去。
Therefore the experiencer is the experienced.        所以经验者就是所经历的对象。
If I seek illumination,        如果我追求启迪、
enlightenment, or whatever you might like to call it,        开悟,或者无论你愿意管它叫什么,
I am then trying to do all kinds of things to achieve that.        我就会想尽一切办法去实现它。
But I don't know what illumination is. I don't know.        但是我不知道开悟是什么。我不知道。
Not because you said it, or Buddha said it, or somebody else said it,        并不因为你说过、佛陀说过,或者别的什么人说过这回事,
I don't know. But I am going to find out.        我就是不知道。但是我会去探索。
Which means the mind must be totally free - from prejudice,        那意味着心灵必须彻底自由——摆脱偏见、
from fear, all the rest of that messy business.        摆脱恐惧以及诸如此类的一切乱糟糟的事情。
So, my concern is not illumination, but whether        所以,我关心的不是开悟,而是
the content of my consciousness        我意识的内容能否
can be cleansed - whatever word you use.        被涤清——无论你用什么词。
That's my concern - not concern, that's my enquiry.        那是我关心的事情——不是关心,那是我探索的事情。
And as long as I am separate from my consciousness        只要我与我的意识是分开的,
I can experience it, I can analyse it,        我就可以体验它,我就可以分析它,
I can tear it to pieces, act upon it,        我就可以把它撕成碎片,对它采取行动,
which means perpetual conflict between me and my consciousness.        那意味着我和我的意识之间有着永无止境的冲突。
I wonder why we accept all this.        我纳闷我们为什么要接受这一切。
Why do I accept that I am a Hindu?        我为什么要接受我是个印度教徒?
Why do I accept that I am a Catholic?        我为什么要接受我是个天主教徒?
You follow? S: Yes.        你明白吗?谢:是的。
K: Why do we accept what other people say?        克:我们为什么接受别人所说的话?
H: We say it ourselves.        希:我们自己也那么说。
K: Yes. No, not only we say it ourselves,        克:是的。不,不只是我们自己那么说,
but it's encouraged, sustained,        而且这种做法还被其他人所鼓励、所支持、
nourished by people outside.        所助长。
Why? Why do we accept?        为什么?我们为什么接受?
He is a professor and he is teaching me, I accept that.        他是个教授,他教我,我接受这点。
Because he knows biology much more than I do, I go to his class,        因为生物学他懂的比我多,我去上他的课,
and I am being informed by what he says.        我听到了他所说的话。
But he's not my guru, he's not my behaviour guide.        但他不是我的古鲁,他不是我行为的指导。
He is giving me information about biology, and I am interested in it.        他给我生物学的知识,而我对此感兴趣。
I want to study it, I want to go out into the field        我想学习,我想实地去考察,
and do all kinds of stuff.        以及做各种各样的事情。
But why do we accept authority,        但我们为什么接受权威,
psychological authority,        心理上的权威、
spiritual - quote spiritual - authority?        精神上的——精神加引号——权威呢?
Again, we come back to security.        我们又回到了安全上。
I don't know what to do, but you know better than I do;        我不知道该怎么办,但是你知道的比我多;
you are my guru.        你是我的古鲁。
I refuse that position.        我拒绝接受那种关系。
S: But don't we arrive at the same set of problems,        谢:但是,我们难道不会归结到同一类问题吗,
if we start not from authority but from responsibility;        即使我们不从权威开始,而是从责任开始;
say, I'm a father, I have this child,        比如,我是一个父亲,我有个孩子,
we've agreed some time ago...        不久前我们达成一致……
K: You have to instruct it, of course.        克:你得指导他,当然。
S: You have to look after this baby. K: Of course, of course.        谢:你得照顾这个孩子。克:当然,当然。
S: Fine. But now, in order to feed the baby you become preoccupied        谢:好。但是现在,为了养活这个孩子,你心里想的全是
with security, job, tenure, you know, house...        保障、工作、职位,你知道,房子……
K: Of course, of course. S: ...protecting the house        克:当然,当然。谢:……保护这个家
against marauders, and so on. K: Of course, of course.        免于强盗的掠夺,等等。克:当然,当然。
S: Then you get into the same lot of things about preoccupation        谢:然后你开始探索同样的一些事情,思考被安全
with security, starting not from authority but from responsibility        占据的心,尽管不是从权威开始,而是从责任开始的,
for others, for children, for example.        比如,对别人、对孩子的责任。
K: Of course.        克:当然。
S: So, then what is the answer to that?        谢:那么,对此的回答是什么呢?
It's easy to say you should reject responsibility.        这时容易说你应该抛弃责任。
K: Of course, I have money, if I earn money, job, so on,        克:当然,我有钱,如果我工作、赚钱等等,
I have to look after myself. If I have servants,        我得照顾我自己。如果我有佣人,
I have to look after servants, my children,        我得照顾佣人、我的孩子们,
perhaps their children too.        也许还有他们的孩子。
I am responsible for all that. S: Yes.        我对这一切都有责任。谢:是的。
K: Physically I am responsible. To give them food,        克:物质上我得负责。为他们提供食物、
to give them the right amount of money,        数量适当的钱,
allow their children go to a proper school, like my children        让他们的孩子上合适的学校,就像我的孩子们那样
- I am responsible for all that.        ——我对这一切都有责任。
S: But isn't that going to bring you back to the same position        谢:但是,这不就把你带回到了
of insecurity, and so on, that you were trying to        同样一个不安全之类的问题吗,于是你又要努力
dissolve by this rejection of authority?        通过这种摒弃权威的方式来消除这些问题?
K: I don't see why I need spiritual or psychological authority.        克:我不明白我为什么需要精神或者心理权威。
Because if I know how to read myself,        因为如果我知道如何了解自己,
I don't need anybody to tell me.        我就不需要任何人来告诉我。
But we have never attempted deeply to read the book of myself.        但是,我们从来不想深入地读自己这本书。
I come to you and say, 'Please, help me to read.'        我来找你,并且说:“请帮我读。”
And then the whole thing is lost.        然后这整件事情就迷失了。
H: But I think what Rupert is asking is that        希:可是我觉得鲁伯特问的是
if we start by assuming responsibility for other people,        如果我们从承担对别人的责任开始,
that entails... K: What? My earning capacity?        那需要……克:什么?我赚钱的能力?
H: Which must be secure. K: Yes, secure as much as possible.        希:必须有安全。克:是的,最大可能的安全。
Not in countries where there's tremendous unemployment.        不是在失业如此严重的那些国家里。
H: So, you're saying that that doesn't entail any psychological insecurity.        希:那么,你说那并不使得任何心理上的安全成为必需。
K: No, of course not. But when I say, 'He's my servant,        克:不,当然不需要。但是,当我说:“他是我的佣人,
I'm going to keep him in that place,' you follow?        我得把他留在那个位置上,”你明白吗?
H: No. Tell me more. K: I mean, I treat him as a servant.        希:不明白。再多说一些。克:我是说,我把他当做佣人看待。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: Which becomes irresponsible - I don't know… naturally.        克:那自然就会变得不负责任。——我不知道?
H: But if it's a servant, he can come and go. But if it's a child,        希:但是,如果他是一个佣人,他可以来也可以走。但如果那是一个孩子,
he can't come and go. K: Ah! He's part of my family.        他不能来了又走。克:啊!他是我家庭的一部分。
B: I think the question is something like this, that suppose,        博:我想问题是这样的,假设
you are responsible for a family and the conditions are difficult,        你对一个家庭负责,而家境很困难,
you may not have a job, and you may start to worry about,        你也许没有工作,你可能就会开始担心,
and become insecure psychologically.        并且从心理上变得不安全。
K: Yes. B: Right?        克:是的。博:对吗?
K: I don't worry about it, there it is, I have no more money.        克:我并不担心,情况就是这样,我没有更多的钱了。
So, my friend, I have no more money, if you want to stay,        所以,我的朋友,我没有钱了,如果你想留下来,
share the little food I have, we'll share it.        分享我们仅有的一点食物,我们就来分享。
B: You're saying that even if you are unemployed and you are responsible        博:你是说,即使你失业了并且还得为
for a family, it will not disturb the order of the mind, right?        一个家庭负责,那也不会扰乱心灵的秩序,对吗?
K: Of course, not.        克:当然,不会。
B: You will find an intelligent way to solve it.        博:你会找到智慧的解决之道。
K: Deal with it. B: Yes.        克:解决它。博:是的。
S: But this kind of worry as a result of responsibility is relative.        谢:但是这种担忧作为责任的一个结果,是相关的。
K: I don't call it worry. (Laughs) I am responsible.        克:我不把它叫做担忧。(众笑)我负责任。
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: And therefore I look after as much as I can.        克:所以我尽我所能地照顾一切。
S: And if you can't? K: Sorry?        谢:可如果你不能呢?克:对不起?
S: If you can't? K: I can't.        谢:如果你不能呢?克:我不能。
Why should I worry and bother - I can't, it's a fact.        我为什么要担心并忧虑呢——我不能,那是事实。
B: You're saying that it's possible to be completely free of worry,        博:你是说可能彻底摆脱担忧,
for example, in the face of great difficulties.        比如说,在面对巨大困境的时候。
K: Yes. There is no… You see, that's what I am saying.        克:是的。没有……你看,那就是我说的意思。
Where there is attention, there is no need to… there is no worry,        如果有关注,就不需要……没有担忧,
because there is no centre from which you are attending.        因为没有你出发去关注的中心。
S: There are still problems, and there may still be        谢:可还是有问题,也许还有
responsibilities that one has.        你需要负的责任。
K: Of course, I have problems, so I resolve them.        克:当然,我有问题,所以我解决它们。
S: But if you can't resolve them.        谢:但是如果你不能解决它们。
K: Then I can't. S: If your family is starving.        克:那么我就不能。谢:如果你的家人在忍饥挨饿。
K: I can't. Why should I worry about it? I can't be Queen of England.        克:我不能解决。我为什么要担心呢?我又不是英国女王。
S: No.        谢:不是。
K: No. So, why should I worry about it? (Laughs)        克:不是。所以,我为什么要担心呢?(众笑)
S: But if you're a poor Indian, unemployed,        谢:但如果你是印度的一个穷人,没有工作,
your family is starving, there's nothing you can…        你的家人要饿死了,你什么办法也没有,
You've tried everything, you've failed.        你做出了一切努力,可你失败了。
You don't worry. Actually, surprisingly enough,        你不担心。实际上这真的令人感到非常惊讶,
a lot of poor Indians in just that situation don't worry -        印度很多穷人就处于这种状况,他们不担心——
that's the most amazing thing about India.        这是印度最令人惊奇的事情。
But then, of course, people coming along looking from outside say,        但是然后,当然,外来的人看了会说:
'Well, this is fatalism.' K: Yes, that's right.        “哦,这是宿命论。”克:是的,对。
S: And it's often regarded as the disease of India, the very fact        谢:而这个事实本身,也经常被认为是印度的弊病,
that so many people manage not to worry in those circumstances,        即有那么多人在那样的境遇中却毫不担忧,
to the degree that we would expect.        其程度到达了我们所能想象的地步。
K: I'd like to ask you a question. You've listened to all this        克:我想问你一个问题。你听说了这一切
- messy consciousness -        ——混乱的意识——
does one realise it, and empty the content,        你有没有意识到这点,并清空那些内容,
fear, you know, the whole business?        恐惧,你知道的,这全部的东西?
Does it interest you? H: Yes.        你对此感兴趣吗?希:是的。
K: Totally? H: Yes.        克:完全感兴趣?希:是的。
K: That means what?        克:那意味着什么?
H: It means you just listen.        希:那意味着你只是倾听。
K: No, it means a conversation, dialogue between us.        克:不,那意味着一场对话,我们之间的对话。
Penetrating deeper, and deeper, and deeper.        穿透得越来越深、越来越深。
Which means you must be free to examine.        意味着你必须自由地去探索。
Free from your prejudice, from your previous experience.        摆脱你的偏见、摆脱你先前的经验。
Of course, otherwise you can't examine. You can't investigate.        当然了,否则你就无法检视。你无法探究。
'Investigare' means explore,        “探究”意味着探索,
you know, push it, push it, push it further and further.        你知道,推进、推进,越来越远地推进。
Now, are you, are we willing to do that,        现在,你是不是、我们是不是愿意这么做,
so that actually the self is not?        于是真的没有了自我?
But when the self is not, it doesn't mean you neglect your wife,        但是,当没有了自我时,那并不意味着你忽略你的妻子、
your children - you follow?        你的孩子们——你明白吗?
That becomes so silly, it's like becoming a sannyasi,        那就太愚蠢了,那就像是变成了一个遁世修行者,
going off to the mountains,        归隐山林,
a monk going off into a monastery.        或者藏身寺庙中的僧侣。
That's an extraordinary escape.        那是一种严重的逃避。
The fact is I have to deal with my wife and children,        事实是我得面对我的妻子和孩子们,
and if I have, a servant.        还有佣人,如果我有的话。
Can I be so totally without the self        我能否完全没有自己,
that I can intelligently deal with these problems?        这样我就能智慧地处理这些问题?
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