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The Nature of the Mind 4 心的本质4

H: The Nature of the Mind        希:心的本质
Part Four        第四部分
What is a Healthy Mind?        什么是健康的心灵?
This is one of a series of dialogues between J Krishnamurti,        这是J.克里希那穆提与
David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake, and John Hidley.        大卫.博姆、鲁伯特.谢尔德雷克和约翰.希德利进行的系列对话之一。
The purpose of these discussions is to explore essential questions        这些讨论的目的是探索最根本的
about the mind, what is psychological disorder,        心灵问题,即心理上的混乱
and what is required for fundamental psychological change.        以及根本性的心理变革所需为何。
J Krishnamurti is a religious philosopher, author, and educator,        J.克里希那穆提是一位宗教哲学家、作家和教育家,
who has written and given lectures on these subjects for many years.        他多年来就这些问题著书立说并进行演讲。
He has founded elementary and secondary schools        他在美国、英国和印度
in the United States, England, and India.        建立了几所小学和中学。
David Bohm is professor of theoretical physics        大卫.博姆是理论物理学的教授,
at Birkbeck College, London University in England.        就职于英国伦敦大学的伯克贝克学院。
He has written numerous books concerning theoretical physics        他著有多部著作,论述理论物理学
and the nature of consciousness.        和意识的本质。
Professor Bohm and Mr. Krishnamurti        博姆教授和克里希那穆提先生
have held previous dialogues on many subjects.        之前曾就很多问题进行过对话。
Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, whose recently published book        鲁伯特.谢尔德雷克是一位生物学家,新近发表了一部著作,
proposes that learning in some members of a species        提出一个物种中部分成员的学习过程
affects the species as a whole.        将会对这个物种的整体产生影响。
Dr. Sheldrake is presently consulting plant physiologist        谢尔德雷克博士现在担任
to the International Crops Research Institute        位于印度海得拉巴的国际农作物研究所的
in Hyderabad, India.        顾问植物生理学家。
John Hidley is a psychiatrist in private practice,        约翰.希德利是一名个人执业的精神病医生,
who has been associated with the Krishnamurti school        与位于加利福尼亚欧亥的克里希那穆提学校
in Ojai, California for the past six years.        已有六年的密切关系。
The first three dialogues have focused on various processes        前三次对话的议题集中于
of self-identification and their effects.        各种自我认同过程及其影响。
The need for psychological security has been discussed as growing out        也讨论了对心理安全的需要,它产生于
of a basic division, in which the contents of consciousness        一种根本的分裂,这种分裂使得意识的内容
appear to be separate from consciousness itself.        看起来与意识本身是分开的。
Today's discussion begins with the importance of attention.        今天的讨论从关注的重要性开始。
K: What is analysis?        克:分析是什么?
And what is observation?        观察又是什么?
In analysis there is the analyser and the analysed.        分析中有分析者和被分析之物。
And so there is always that difference maintained.        因而这种差异总是能够得以延续。
Where there is difference there must be conflict,        只要有这种差异,就必然会有冲突、
division,        分裂,
and that's one of the factors that really is very destructive        而这对于整个心灵的自由来说,
to the whole psychological freedom,        实际上是非常具有破坏性的因素之一,
this conflict, this division.        这种冲突、这种分裂。
And analysis maintains this division.        而分析维系着这种分裂。
Whereas if one observes closely        然而,如果你非常密切地观察
- I'm not correcting you, sir, I'm just enquiring -        ——我不是在纠正你,先生,我只是在探询——
the analyser is the analysed.        那么分析者即被分析之物。
Again the same problem:        又回到了同一个问题:
thought has divided the analyser and the analysed.        思想划分了分析者和被分析之物。
The analyser is the past, who has acquired a lot of knowledge,        分析者是过去,他获得了大量的知识、
information, separated himself,        信息,把自己分离开来,
and is either correcting the observed, the analysed,        总是在纠正被观察者、被分析之物,
make him conform - he is acting upon it.        让他遵从——他在对它采取行动。
Whereas the analyser is the analysed.        然而分析者即被分析之物。
I think if that is really understood very deeply,        我想,如果能够非常深刻地领会这一点,
the conflict, psychological conflict ends,        冲突,心理冲突就会终止,
because in that there is no division between        因为在那了解之中,没有
the analyser and the analysed,        分析者和被分析者之间的分裂,
there is only observation.        而只有观察。
Which Dr. Bohm and we discussed at considerable length last year.        去年博姆博士和我们曾非常深入地探讨过这个问题 。
So, if that is clearly understood        那么,如果非常清晰地理解了这一点
- I am not laying down the law,        ——我不是在定下规则,
but I am just… as I have observed,        我只是在……因为我观察到了,
as one has observed this whole business of conflict,        因为你观察到了这整个冲突的状况,
whether one can live the whole of one's life without conflict.        你能否毫无冲突地度过整个一生。
That means the controller is absent,        那意味着没有控制者,
which is a very dangerous question.        而这是一个非常危险的问题。
I feel where there is inattention, lack of attention,        我发现,当漫不经心时,缺乏关注
is really the whole process of conflict.        实际上就是整个冲突的过程。
S: Yes, I can see that if both sides saw this with the utmost clarity...        谢:是的,我能看出,如果双方都能极其清楚地看到这一点……
K: Yes. That means they are giving intelligence to the whole problem.        克:是的。那意味着他们在给整个问题带来智慧。
S: What happens if only one party in a conflict        谢:在某个冲突中,如果只有一方极其清晰地看到了这一点,
sees it with that utmost clarity? K: What happens?        那会怎么样?克:会怎么样?
One gives complete attention in one's relationship between        你以全然的注意力来关注
man and woman; let's begin with that.        男人和女人之间的关系;我们从这件事情开始。
You have given complete attention.        你付出了全然的关注。
When she insults you, when she flatters you,        当她侮辱你,当她奉承你,
when she bullies you,        当她欺负你,
or when she is attached to you,        或者当她依恋你,
all that is the lack of attention.        那一切都是缺乏关注。
If you give complete attention, and the wife doesn't,        如果你付出全然的关注,而妻子没有,
then what happens? That is the same problem.        那么会怎么样?这是同一个问题。
Either you try to explain, day after day,        你会努力地解释,日复一日,
go into it with her patiently.        耐心地和她探讨这个问题。
After all, attention implies also great deal of care, affection, love.        毕竟,关注也意味着大量的关心、关怀和爱。
It's not just mental attention.        它不仅仅是理性的关注,
It's attention with all your being.        而是用你的整个存在去关注。
Then either she moves along with you,        那么,她要么随你而动,
comes over to your side, as it were,        来到你那一边,就像过去那样,
or she holds on to her        要么继续坚守
separative contradictory state.        她矛盾分裂的状态。
Then what happens?        然后会怎么样?
One is stupid, the other is intelligent.        一个人是愚蠢的,而另一个人是智慧的。
S: But the conflict... K: So there is always the battle        谢:但是冲突……克:所以战斗始终在
between the stupid and the ignorant.        愚蠢者和无知者之间进行着。
I mean between the ignorant, the stupid, and the intelligent.        我是说无知者、愚蠢者和智慧者之间。
H: A thing that seems to happen in that situation is that        希:在那样的情形下,可能会发生的一件事情是,
the one's intelligence makes room, in which the other person,        智慧的那个人创造出了空间,而另一个人,
who is caught in some attachment, may have freedom to look at it.        困在某些依恋里的那个人,在那个空间里也许就有了看的自由。
K: But if the other refuses to look at it,        克:但是如果另一个拒绝去看,
then what is the relationship between the two people?        那么这两个人之间会有怎样的关系?
H: There is none. K: That's all.        希:没有关系。克:就是这样。
You see tribalism is deadly, destructive.        你看到部落主义是致命的、毁灭性的。
You see it basically, fundamentally, and I don't.        你从根本上深刻地看到了这一点,而我没有。
You have seen it probably immediately,        你也许立刻就看到了这一点,
and I'll take many years, a long time to come to that.        而我要花费好多年,花费好长时间才明白。
Will you have the...        你能不能有……
- I won't use the word patience -        ——我不想用耐心这个词——
will you have the care, affection, love,        你能不能有关心、关怀和爱,
so that you understand my stupidity?        这样你就能理解我的愚蠢?
I may rebel against you.        我也许会反抗你。
I may divorce you.        我也许会和你离婚。
I may run away from you.        我也许会离开你。
But you have sown the seed somewhere in me.        但是,你已经在我内心播下了种子。
But that does happen, doesn't it, really, in life?        而这确实会发生,真的在生活中发生,不是吗?
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
H: You said something that interests me here,        希:这里你说了一件我很感兴趣的事情,
you said that if you have seen it immediately        你说,如果你立刻就看到了,
and the other person may take a long time to come to seeing it.        而另一个人也许要花费很长时间才能看到那一点。
And it seems like in this attention that you're talking about        似乎在你谈到的这种关注中,
perception is immediate. K: Of course.        洞察是即刻发生的。克:当然。
H: It isn't built up out of... K: Oh, no, then it's not perception.        希:它并非产生于……克:噢,不,那就不是洞察了。
H: That may be part of the reason the other person is having        希:那也许就是另一个人
difficulty seeing it, is that they want it to be proved to them.        很难看到的原因之一,他们想让别人证明给他们看。
K: You see conditioning is destructive,        克:你看到制约具有毁灭性,
and I don't. H: Yes.        而我没有看到。希:是的。
K: What is our relationship between us two?        克:我们两个人之间有什么关系?
It's very difficult to communicate with each other...        彼此之间很难沟通……
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: ...verbally or with care, it's very difficult, because...        克:……无论是用语言还是带着关怀,都很难,因为……
H: You won't know what I'm talking about.        希:你不知道我在说什么。
K: No, and also I'm resisting you all the time. I'm defending myself.        克:不知道,而且我还在一直抗拒你。我捍卫我自己。
H: You're defending what you think you see.        希:你捍卫的是你认为自己看到的东西。
K: What I think is right. I have been brought up as a Hindu,        克:我所认为的是对的。我是作为一个印度教徒、
or a British, or a German, or a Russian, whatever it is,        一个英国人、一个德国人、一个俄国人,或者无论什么人,被抚养长大的,
and I see the danger of letting that go. I might lose my job.        而我明白要放弃这一切有多危险。我也许会丢了工作。
People will say I'm little-minded.        人们会说我疯了。
People might say I depend on public opinion,        人们也许会说我依赖公众的看法,
so I'm frightened to let go.        所以我害怕放手。
So, I stick to it.        于是,我继续坚守那些。
Then what is your relationship with me?        那么,你和我有什么关系?
Have you any relationship? H: No.        有任何关系吗?希:没有。
K: No, I question whether you have no relationship.        克:不,我质疑你是否与我没有任何关系。
H: I can tell you what I see.        希:我可以告诉你我所看到的。
K: Yes. But if you have love for me, real, not just attachment,        克:是的。但如果你对我有爱,真正的爱,不是依恋
and sex, and all that business, if you really care for me,        和性以及诸如此类的东西,如果你真的关心我,
you cannot lose that relationship.        你就不能失去那种关系。
I may run away,        我也许会跑掉,
but you have the feeling of relationship.        但是你有那种关系感。
I don't know if I am conveying what I mean.        我不知道我有没有说明白我的意思。
H: In other words, I don't just say, well, I see it and you don't,        希:换句话说,我不能只是说,哦,我看到了,你没有看到,
and if you're not going to listen, the heck with you.        如果你不想听,那就随你去吧。
K: No. But, sir,        克:不会。但是,先生,
you have established a kind of relationship,        你建立了一种关系,
perhaps very profound, when there is love.        也许非常深刻,如果有爱的话。
I may reject you, but you have that responsibility of love.        我也许会拒绝你,但你有那种爱的责任。
Not only to the particular person,        那不仅仅是对那个特定的人的爱,
but to the whole of humanity.        而是对整个人类的爱。
What do you say, sir, about all this?        关于这一切,你会怎么说,先生?
B: Well, I can't say a great deal more.        博:哦,我说不了太多。
I think that this care and attention are the essential points.        我想,这种关怀和关注是核心问题。
And, for example, in the question of the observer and the observed,        例如,在观察者和所观之物
or the analyser and the analysed,        或者分析者和被分析之物的问题中,
the reason why that separation occurs        为什么会发生分裂的原因
is because there has not been enough attention.        是因为没有足够的关注。
K: Attention, that's what I'm saying.        克:关注,那就是我所说的。
B: So that one has to have that same attitude even in looking        博:所以,即使在看的时候,你也需要有同样的态度,
at one's own psychological problems.        来看自己的心理问题。
H: An attitude of care?        希:关怀的态度?
B: Care and attention to what's going on.        博:关心和关注所发生的事情。
One starts to analyse by habit,        你习惯从分析开始,
and one might condemn that, for example,        比如,你也许会谴责那件事情,
that would not be the right attitude.        而那不是正确的态度。
But one has to give care and attention to exactly        但是,你需要切实对其中所发生的事情
what is happening in that, just as in relationship with people.        给予关心和关注,就像在与别人的关系中那样去关注。
And it's because that there was no attention        正是因为没有关注
or not the right kind of attention,        或者没有正确的关注,
that that division arose in the first place,        那种分裂才先是出现,
and was sustained, right?        然后再得以维系下去,对吗?
S: But it's possible to have perhaps this kind of attention        谢:但是对我们认识的那些人:妻子、孩子、朋友,等等,
towards people that we know: wives, children, friends, etc.,        可能会有这种关注,
but what about people we don't know? I mean, most of us        可对那些我们不认识的人呢?我是说,我们大部分人
have never met any Russians, for example, and we feel, many of us,        从未遇到过俄国人,比如说,我们很多人感觉到
there's this terrible fear of Russia, and Russian nuclear weapons,        非常害怕俄国、俄国的核武器
and the Russian threat, and all the rest of it.        和俄国的威胁,以及诸如此类的一切。
And so it's very easy to think, 'We've got to have all these bombs,        所以很容易就会认为:“我们得拥有所有这些炸弹,
and so on, because the Russians are so terrible.'        等等,因为俄国人太可怕了。”
We can think all these things about Russians; we've never met them.        我们可以思考所有这些关于俄国人的事情;我们从未见过他们。
So, how do we have attention to enemies, or imagined enemies,        所以,我们如何去关注我们并不认识的敌人,
that we don't know? K: What is an enemy?        或者假想的敌人?克:什么是敌人?
Is there such thing as an enemy?        有敌人这回事吗?
S: Well, there are enemies in the sense that there are people who...        谢:哦,敌人的意思是有些人他们……
K: ...who disagree with you.        克:……与你意见不同。
S: Not only disagree… K: Who have definite idealistic,        谢:不只是意见不同……克:他们有着观念上的、
ideological differences.        意识形态上的明显分歧。
S: Well, they're usually people who are afraid of us, I mean,        谢:哦,他们通常是害怕我们的人,我是说,
the Russians are afraid of us, and we're afraid of them,        俄国人害怕我们,我们也害怕他们,
and because they're afraid of us,        因为他们害怕我们,
they're in a position of being our enemies.        他们就处在了我们的敌人的位置上。
K: Because we are still thinking in terms of tribalism.        克:因为我们还在以部落主义的方式思考。
S: Yes, certainly.        谢:是的,当然。
K: Supposing you and I move out of that.        克:假设你和我从中走了出来。
I'm Russian, you are English, or British, or German, or French.        我是俄国人,你是英国人,或者德国人、法国人。
I move, I despise this sense of tribalism.        我走了出来,我唾弃这种部落主义。
What's my relationship then with you?        那么我与你的关系是怎样的?
H: Well, we... K: I'm not Russian then.        希:哦,我们……克:我不再是俄国人了。
S: No. K: I'm a human being        谢:不是。克:我是人类的一员,
with all my psychological problems,        有着我所有的心理问题,
and you are another human being        而你是人类的另一员,
with all your psychological problems.        有着你所有的心理问题。
We are human beings, not labels.        我们都是人类,而不是标签。
B: Of course, the Russians may reject this, you see.        博:当然,你看,俄国人也许会反对这一点。
Suppose, we're in this situation... K: We are in that.        假设,我们处在这种情形下……克:我们就身处其中。
B: ...and the Russians will reject us, right? Then we have to…        博:……而俄国人会反对我们,对吗?然后我们就不得不……
then what's the next step, right?        然后下一步该怎么办,对吗?
K: So what shall we do?        克:那么我们该怎么办?
You see,        你看,
I represent all humanity.        我代表所有的人类。
I am all humanity.        我就是整个人类。
I feel that way. To me it's an actuality, not just        我是这么感觉的。对我来说,这是个事实,而不仅仅是
an emotional explosion, emotional, romantic idea.        一种感情爆发、一个情绪化的、浪漫的想法。
I feel I am the rest of mankind; I am mankind.        我感觉我就是其他人类;我就是人类。
Because I suffer, or I enjoy, I go through all the tortures,        因为我痛苦,或者我快乐,我经历了所有的折磨,
and so do you, so do you.        而你也是,你也是。
So, you are the rest of mankind.        所以,你就是其他人类。
And therefore you have terrible responsibility for that, in that.        所以,你在其中对整个人类负有无可推卸的巨大责任。
So when you meet a Russian, or a German, or a British, or Argentine,        所以,当你遇到一个俄国人,或者一个德国人、英国人、阿根廷人,
you treat them as human beings, not labels.        你会把他们当做人类,而不是当做标签来对待。
S: Then does this simply mean that in this largely tribal society,        谢:那是不是仅仅意味着,在这个很大程度上部落化的社会中,
with governments, and bombs, and weapons of war,        有着政府、炸弹和战争武器,
there'll just be a few individual scattered here and there,        只有分散在各处的几个人
who've dissolved tribalism in themselves?        消除了自身的部落主义?
K: Yes. If a hundred of us all over the world really had        克:是的。如果全世界我们有一百个人真正拥有
a non-tribalistic attitude towards life,        非部落主义的态度来对待生活,
we would be acting like a...        那么我们就会像……一样行动
I don't know - like a light in the midst of darkness.        我不知道——像黑暗之中的一盏灯。
But we don't.        但是我们没有。
This just becomes an idealistic romantic idea,        这只不过变成了一个理想化的浪漫想法,
and you drop it, because each pursues his own way.        然后你把它丢掉,因为每个人都各行其是。
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: Sir, I think we ought to differentiate        克:先生,我想我们应该区分
between attention and concentration.        关注和专注。
Concentration is focusing your energy on a certain point.        专注是将你的能量聚焦在某个点上。
And attention -        而关注——
there is no focusing on a certain point.        并不集中于某个点上。
It's attention.        那是关注。
H: Concentration seems to have a goal in mind.        希:专注似乎心里有个目标。
K: A goal, motive. It's a restrictive process.        克:一个目标、动机。那是一个限制性的过程。
I concentrate on a page, but my thoughts...        我专注在书本上,而我的思绪……
I am looking out of the window, and I'll pull it back,        我望向窗外然后我再收回来,
and keep on this business.        此类的事情不断发生。
Whereas if I gave complete attention to        然而,如果我全然关注
what I am looking out of the window        我望向窗外看到的东西
- that lizard which is going along the wall -        ——爬在墙上的那个壁虎——
and with that same attention I can look at my book,        我也用同样的关注来看我的书本、
look what I am doing.        看我正在做的事情。
H: Concentration presupposes that there's a controller        希:专注假定有一个控制者
in there pulling it back. K: That's just it.        在那里把思绪拉回来。克:就是这样。
S: But then, if there's no controller of the attention,        谢:但是,如果没有关注的控制者
the attention is simply a response        关注就仅仅是
to whatever the present circumstances are.        对此刻环境的一种反应。
K: You insult me - I'm attentive.        克:你侮辱了我——对此我全然关注。
There is no recording that insult.        那么就不会记录那个侮辱。
B: Yes, I said.        博:是的,我说了。
K: You flatter me - a marvellous talk you gave the other day.        克:你恭维我——那天你的讲话真是精彩。
I've heard this so often repeated. And I'm bored with it, so        我经常听到有人这么说。而我厌倦了这个说法,所以
- I'm not only bored - I see, what?        ——我不仅仅是厌倦——我看到了,什么?
You follow, sir?        你明白吗,先生?
Is it possible - really, that's the much more difficult question -        有没有可能——真的,这是一个更加困难的问题——
is it possible not to record        有没有可能不去记录,
except where it is necessary?        除非必要的时候?
It's necessary to record when you are driving.        你开车的时候有必要记录。
To learn how to drive.        为了学习如何驾驶。
Record when you do your business, and all the rest of it.        当你做生意的时候,诸如此类的时候,要记录。
But psychologically, what is the need to record?        但是心理上,有什么必要记录呢?
S: Isn't it inevitable? Doesn't our memory work automatically?        谢:这难道不是无法避免的吗?我们的记忆不是自动工作的吗?
K: Memory is rather selective.        克:记忆是相当有选择性的。
H: We seem to remember things that are important to us...        希:我们似乎会记住对我们来说重要的事情……
S: Yes. H: ...have some...        谢:是的。希:……有某些……
connect in with who we think we are and what our goals are.        联系,与我们以为我们是谁和我们的目标是什么有关联的事情。
B: But it seems to me that when there is paying attention        博:但是,在我看来,当关注时,
then in general attention determines what is to be recorded        通常的关注会决定要记录什么、
and what is not, that is, it is not automatic anymore.        不记录什么,也就是说那就不再是自动的了。
K: It's not automatic any more. Quite right.        克:不再是自动的了。很对。
B: If it comes from the past, from the concentration,        博:如果它来自于过去、来自于专注
or from the analysis, then it will be automatic.        或者来自于分析,那么就会是自动的。
K: Another problem which we ought to discuss        克:我们应该探讨的另一个问题是
- we said yesterday we would - religion, meditation,        ——我们昨天说我们会讨论的——宗教和冥想,
and if there is something sacred.        以及是否存在某种神圣之物。
We said we would talk about that.        我们说过我们会谈到这些问题的。
Is there anything sacred in life?        生命中有任何神圣的东西吗?
Not thought creating something sacred        不是思想制造出某种神圣的东西,
and then worshipping that sacred, which is absurd.        然后再膜拜那神圣,这很荒谬。
The symbols in all the Indian temples, they're images,        印度所有寺庙中的符号,它们都是些形象,
like in the Christian church,        就像基督教堂里
or the Muslim in the mosque,        或者穆斯林清真寺里那样,
there is this marvellous writing, it's the same.        有着奇妙的文字,它们都是一回事。
And we worship that.        而我们膜拜那些。
H: That's idolatry. K: No. Thought has created this.        希:那是偶像崇拜。克:不。是思想制造了这些。
The thought has created the image        思想制造出偶像,
and then it worships it.        然后崇拜它。
I don't know if you see the absurdity of it.        我不知道你是否看到了其荒谬性。
H: Yes.        希:是的。
S: Well, that's manifestly absurd,        谢:哦,那显然很荒唐,
but the more sophisticated members of different religions        但是,各派宗教中更高层的成员
would say that it's not the thought,        会说那不是思想,
the image that's created by thought that's being worshipped,        被膜拜的偶像是思想制造的,
but the image points to something beyond thought        但偶像指向了某种超越思想的东西,
which is being worshipped. K: Wait a minute, let's look at it.        膜拜的是它们。克:等一下,我们来看一看。
That is, the symbol,        也就是说,符号,
we know symbol is not the real,        我们知道符号并非真实之物,
but why do we create the symbol?        但我们为什么要创造出符号呢?
Please answer it.        请回答这个问题。
If there is something beyond, why do we create the intermediary?        如果有某种超越的东西,我们为什么要创造出中间的媒介呢?
S: Well, I think that this is a question        谢:哦,我想这个问题
which in certain religions has been central to them.        对于某些宗教来说是核心的问题。
The Jews who were against all idolatry for exactly this reason,        犹太教徒正是因为这个原因而反对所有的偶像崇拜,
and the Muslims, who don't have images in the mosques.        还有穆斯林,他们的清真寺里没有偶像。
K: No, but they have these scripts. S: They have writing.        克:没有,但是他们有那些文字。谢:他们有文字。
K: Of course.        克:当然。
S: Well, they think writing is what tells them about        谢:哦,他们认为文字告诉了他们
what lies beyond all symbols. K: Yes.        所有符号背后隐含的东西。克:是的。
S: Now, you could say the writing simply becomes a symbol,        谢:那么,你可以说文字只不过变成了符号,
but I mean, these are words, and words can help us.        但我的意思是,这些是词语,而词语可以帮助我们。
We're having a discussion, and these words that we're having,        我们在讨论,而我们使用的这些词语,
your words may help me, for example, if they're written down,        你的词语可以帮助我,比如说,如果把它们写下来,
then they're written words like Muslim words.        然后它们就成了书面文字,就像穆斯林文字一样。
K: So, why do I have to have an intermediary at all?        克:那么,我究竟为什么要有个中介呢?
H: Because I think I'm here, and it's over there, and I don't have it.        希:因为我认为我在这里,而它在那里,我没有它。
I need some way to get there.        我需要一条路到达那里。
K: No, you're not answering my question.        克:不,你没有回答我的问题。
Is it that you, the intermediary, understand, or realised, or        是不是你,中介理解了或者意识到了,或者
follow truth, or whatever it is,        追随了真理,或者无论什么,
and therefore you are telling me about it?        于是你来告诉我?
H: Maybe I've seen something and I want to tell you about it.        希:也许我看到了什么,我想告诉你关于它的事情。
K: Yes, tell me about it, but why do you make yourself interpreter?        克:是的,告诉我,但是你为什么把自己变成诠释者呢?
Why do you become the intermediary between that        你为什么变成了它
- I don't know what that is -        ——我不知道那是什么——
and me, who is ignorant, who is suffering?        和我之间的中介呢,而我无知又痛苦?
Why don't you deal with my suffering rather than with that?        你为什么不处理我的痛苦,而是去处理它呢?
H: I think that that will deal with your suffering.        希:我认为它能处理你的痛苦。
If I can get you to...        如果我能把你带到……
K: That has been, sir, that has been the old trick        克:这就是,先生,这就是世界上
of all the priests in the world.        所有的神父耍的老一套把戏。
We have had priests from time immemorial,        我们从远古时代开始就有了神父,
right? H: Yes.        对吗?希:是的。
K: But you haven't released my sorrow.        克:但你还是没有消除我的悲伤。
I am still suffering after a million years.        一百万年之后,我依然痛苦。
What for?        为什么?
Help me to get rid of that.        帮我除掉它。
Help me to be free, without fear, then I'll find out.        帮我解脱,免除恐惧,然后我会发现的。
Is it that you want position, power, status,        是不是因为你想要地位、权力和身份,
like the rest of the world.        就像世界上其他的人那样?
Now, this is really quite serious.        而这真的非常严肃。
B: I think, if we try to give the priests        博:我想,如果我们试图为神父
the most favourable interpretation,        做出一种最受欢迎的解释,
that they may have considered,        那就是,他们也许认为,
at least the best among them, that there's a kind of poetic imagery        至少他们中最优秀的那些人认为,有某种诗意的想象,
that people may use to point to something beyond that - right? -        人们可以用来指代某种超越之物——对吗?——
in a communication, they are trying to point        在沟通中,他们试图指向
to this sacred which we were talking about.        我们所说的那种神圣。
That's perhaps the way they would look at it.        那或许就是他们看待这件事情的方式。
Now, would you say that that would that make no sense,        那么,你会不会说那没什么意义,
you know, to have a poetic image to point to the sacred.        你知道,用一个诗意的形象指向那神圣者,毫无意义。
K: But, sir, why don't you help me to see what is happening to me?        克:但是,先生,你为什么不帮助我看到我身上发生着的事情?
B: Yes, that's your point, don't point to the sacred right away,        博:是的,那就是你的意思,不要立刻指向神圣者,
but look at this first.        而是先来看看这个。
K: Help me to be free of it, then I'll walk.        克:帮我摆脱它,然后我会自己走。
B: Yes, I understand that.        博:是的,我明白那一点。
K: We have never talked - nobody has gone into this like that.        克:我们从未探讨过——没人曾经这样深入探究过这个问题。
Always god, some saviour, some Brahma, and so on, so on.        总是说神明,某个救世主、某个婆罗门,等等等等。
And this is what we call religion.        而这就是我们所谓的宗教。
All the rituals are invented by thought,        所有的仪式都由思想所发明,
marvellous architecture - by thought,        美妙的建筑——由思想所造,
all the things inside the churches,        教堂、寺庙、清真寺里的所有东西,
temples, mosques, created by thought.        由思想所造。
And having thought create it, then thought worships it.        思想制造出来,然后思想再膜拜它。
But thought is not sacred.        但思想并不神圣。
H: Yes, I see that. So you are saying,        希:是的,我明白这一点。所以,你说的是,
is it possible to put a stop to thought?        有没有可能停止思想?
K: Thought. Is it possible?        克:思想。可能吗?
H: And thought is the thing that gets in the way        希:思想是从中作梗的障碍,
by creating the images... K: Of course.        它制造出形象……克:当然。
H: ...which we take for something really valuable.        希:……而我们把这些形象当成非常珍贵的东西。
K: I start out looking for something sacred.        克:我开始寻找某种神圣之物。
You come along and say,        你走过来说:
'I'll tell you all about it.' Then you begin to organise it.        “我来告诉你有关的事情。”然后你开始进行组织。
It's all gone by then, it's finished.        到此,一切都完了、结束了。
H: Then I just stay within thought, that's all I have.        希:那么我只说,在思想的范围内,那就是我所有的全部了。
K: So, if we reject, or understand, that thought is not sacred,        克:所以,如果我们摒弃或者懂得思想并不神圣,
there's nothing holy about thought,        那么思想确实毫无神圣之处,
but thought thinks that what it has created is holy.        而思想以为它所创造的东西是神圣的。
Right, sir? B: Right.        对吗,先生?博:对。
Would you also add that, just for the sake of…        你会不会接着说,看在……的份上,
that time is not sacred? K: Time, of course, not.        时间并不神圣?克:时间,当然不神圣。
B: Nothing in time, people would say that.        博:时间中的一切都不神圣,人们会这么说。
K: Tomorrow is not sacred!        克:明天并不神圣!
B: They always say, only the eternal is sacred.        博:他们总是说,只有永恒者是神圣的。
K: But to find out what is eternity, time must stop.        克:而若要发现永恒是什么,时间必须停止。
H: But we get into a real subtle place here, because you have said        希:但是这里我们到了一个非常微妙的地方,因为你说过
things like absolute attention dissolves the self.        像彻底的关注这样的事情会消除自我。
Then absolute attention can become a thought.        然后彻底的关注会变成一个思想。
K: Idea of it, yes. H: Yes, the idea of it.        克:对它的想法,是的。希:是的,对它的想法。
So we may go the route of creating the idea.        所以我们也许会走上制造想法的路。
That seems to always be the danger. K: Sir, you make a statement...        那看起来始终是危险所在。克:先生,你给出了一个说法……
H: Yes.        希:是的。
K: ...'absolute attention.'        克:……“彻底的关注”。
I don't capture the depth of your meaning, what is implied.        我无法把握你深层的含义,它意味着什么。
You have gone into it, and you can say that - absolute attention.        你深入探索过这个问题,你可以那么说——彻底的关注。
I hear it and make it into an idea.        我听到了,并把它变成了一个想法。
And then I pursue the idea.        然后我追逐那个想法。
H: That seems to be the process. K: That's what we do all the time.        希:似乎过程就是这样的。克:这是我们一直在做的事情。
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: So - gone. Idea is not what you've said.        克:所以——完了。你所说的不是想法。
What you said had depth in it, had some...        你所说的东西有它的深度,有某种……
H: But we don't know that we're pursuing an idea.        希:但我们不知道我们在追逐想法。
We don't realise at the time that we're pursuing an idea.        我们当时并没有意识到我们在追逐想法。
K: Of course not, because I am used to this reducing everything        克:当然没有,因为我习惯了这种把一切都降减为
to abstract ideas.        抽象的想法的过程。
So, could we try to find out,        所以,我们能否试着去发现,
or realise, that anything thought does is not sacred?        或者意识到,思想所做的一切都不是神圣的?
S: That seems self-evident to me.        谢:这对我来说是不言自明的。
K: All right. That's self-evident.        克:好吧。那是不言自明的。
In all the religions as they are now - there is nothing sacred.        在当今的一切宗教中——没有什么神圣可言。
Right?        对吗?
S: No, there's nothing sacred in itself in the words,        谢:没有,文字中、建筑中或者……等等之中,
or the buildings, or the… and so on. But in a sense        本身没有神圣可言。但是,在某种意义上,
all these religions are supposed to point beyond themselves.        所有这些宗教都试图指向超越自身之处。
K: Yes.        克:是的。
And to help me to go beyond all this, I must start        而若要帮助我超越这一切,我就必须从
with my being free from my agony,        摆脱我的痛苦、
understand my relationship with people.        了解我与别人的关系开始。
If there is confusion here, in my heart and my mind,        如果我的内心、我的头脑是混乱的,
what's the good of the other?        那么另一个又有什么意义?
I am not materialistic.        我不是唯物主义。
I am not anti… the other.        我并不反对……另一个。
But I say, 'Look, I must start where I am.'        但是我说:“看,我必须从我所在的地方出发。”
To go very far, I must start very near.        若要走得很远,我必须从近处出发。
I am very near.        我在很近的地方。
So I must understand myself.        所以我必须了解自己。
I'm the rest of humanity.        我就是其他人类。
I am not an individual.        我不是一个个人。
So, there is the book of humanity in me.        所以,人类这本书就在我身上。
I am that book.        我就是这本书。
If I know how to read it, from the beginning to the end,        如果我知道如何从头到尾地阅读它,
then I can go...        那我就能够走远……
then I will find if there is a possibility...        那么我就会发现有没有可能……
if there is really something that is immense, sacred.        是不是真的有某种无限而神圣的东西。
But if you are all the time saying, 'Look, there is that,        但是,如果你不停地告诉我:“看,有这个东西,
that will help you,' I say, 'It hasn't helped me.'        它能帮助你,”我说:“它没有帮我。”
We have had these religions for millions of years.        我们的这些宗教已经存在了几百万年了。
That hasn't - on the contrary,        它并没有——相反,
you have distracted from 'what is.'        你背离了“现状”。
So, if I want to find out if there is anything sacred,        所以,如果我想发现有没有什么神圣的东西,
I must start very near.        我就必须从近处开始。
The very near is me.        近处就是我。
And can I free myself from fear,        而我能否让自己摆脱恐惧、
agony, sorrow, despair - all that?        痛苦、悲伤和绝望——那一切?
When there is freedom I can move, I can climb mountains.        有了自由我就能活动了,我可以爬上高山。
S: Sir, are you saying that the sacred would become apparent        谢:先生,你是不是说如果我们消除了恐惧以及诸如此类的东西,
if we dissolved fear and all these other things.        神圣者就会变得显而易见。
K: Obviously, sir. That's real meditation, you see.        克:显然如此,先生。你看,这是真正的冥想。
S: Through attention to what is really happening in us.        谢:通过关注我们身上实际正在发生的事情。
K: Happening, yes, that's it.        克:发生,是的,就是这样。
S: And what is really happening between us and other people,        谢:还有我们和别人之间实际上发生着的事情
and all the rest of it. K: Between our relationships.        以及诸如此类的一切。克:在我们的关系中。
S: Yes. Through attention to this, this action...        谢:是的。通过关注这些,这种行动……
K: Attention, and we have discussed, too, with Dr. Bohm, some time ago,        克:关注,而一段时间以前,我们也曾经和博姆博士探讨过,
having an insight into the whole movement of the self,        对自我的整个活动有一种洞察,
which is not a remembrance.        而那不是记忆。
Insight is total perception of what you are,        洞察是整体地看到你现在如何,
without analysis, without investigation - all that.        没有分析、没有研究——没有此类的一切。
Total immediate perception of the whole content        即刻完整地洞察
of your consciousness,        你意识的全部内容,
not take bit, by bit, by bit - that's endless.        而不是一点一点地进行——那就没完没了了。
H: Oh, we're broken up, so we look at each little piece.        希:噢,我们是支离破碎的,所以我们看着每一个小碎片。
K: Yes. And because we are broken up, we can never see the whole.        克:是的。因为我们破碎不堪,所以我们从未看到整体。
Obviously, that seems so logical! H: Okay.        很显然,这看起来太符合逻辑了!希:好的。
K: So, is it possible not to be broken up?        克:那么,有没有可能不支离破碎?
What is to be broken up?        破碎的是什么?
This confusion, this mess in consciousness,        意识中的这困惑、这混乱,
which we talked about yesterday.        我们昨天谈过了。
You see, nobody wants to go so deeply into all this. Right, sir?        你看,没有人愿意如此深入地探索这一切。对吗,先生?
First of all, one hasn't the time, one is committed to one's job,        首先,你没有时间,你得投身于工作之中,
to one's profession, or to one's science,        投身于你的职业、你的科研
to one's whatever one is doing.        或者无论你所做的什么事情当中。
And you say, 'Please, this is too difficult, or too abstract,        你说:“拜托,这太难了,或者太抽象了,
not practical' - that's the word they all use.        不实际”——这就是他们所有人都会用到的说辞。
As though all this, what you are doing and all is terribly practical.        就好像你现在所做的这一切有多么实际似的。
Armaments - is it practical? Tribalism, is...        武器装备——那实际吗?部落主义,那……
oh, well, you know all about it.        噢,好,这些你都知道。
So, sir, let's move from there.        那么,先生,让我们从这里开始。
Is silence of the mind a state of attention?        头脑的安静是一种关注状态吗?
Or is it beyond attention? I don't know if I'm…        抑或超越了关注?我不知道我是不是……
B: What would you mean by 'beyond attention'?        博:你说的“超越关注”是什么意思?
Let's try to get into that.        我们试着探讨一下。
K: In attention is there…        克:关注中有没有……
Is attention an act of will?        关注是意志力的行为吗?
I will attend.        我要关注。
H: No, we said that's concentration.        希:不是,我们说过那是专注。
K: Sir, I am asking you, where there is attention,        克:先生,我问你,如果有关注,
is there any kind of effort?        还会有任何努力吗?
Struggle? 'I must attend.'        挣扎?“我必须关注。”
What is attention? Let's go into it a little bit.        什么是关注?我们再深入一点点。
What is attention?        什么是关注?
The word 'diligent' is implied in attention.        关注中隐含着“勤奋”这个词。
To be diligent. Not negligent.        勤奋,而不是懈怠。
S: What does diligent mean? Careful? You mean careful?        谢:勤奋意味着什么?细心?你是说细心?
K: Yes. Care. To be very precise. Diligent.        克:是的。细心。非常精确。勤奋。
B: The literal meaning is 'taking pains.'        博:它字面上的意思是“辛苦劳作。”
K: Pains, that's right. Taking pain. Which is to care,        克:辛劳,对。辛苦劳作。也就是细心、
to have affection, to do everything correctly, orderly.        怀着爱,做任何事情都准确而有序。
Not repetitive.        不是重复。
Does attention demand the action of thought?        关注需要思想活动吗?
S: Well, it doesn't demand the action of analysis,        谢:哦,它不需要分析活动,
in the way you've explained it. K: No, certainly.        就像你说的那样。克:不需要,当然。
S: And insofar as thought is analytical, it doesn't demand that.        谢:既然思想是分析性的,所以不需要思想。
And it doesn't demand the action of will, insofar as will involves        它也不需要意志力的行为,因为意志会引起
a separation, an attempt to, by one part of the mind,        分裂,头脑的一部分企图
force another part to do something else.        强迫另一部分去做别的事情。
And it doesn't imply any sense of        它没有隐含丝毫
going anywhere or becoming anything,        想要去哪里或者成为什么的意思,
because becoming leads one out of the present.        因为成为什么会让你脱离现在。
K: That's right. You can't become attentive.        克:对。你无法变得关注。
S: But in the act of attention... K: Just see what is implied in it.        谢:但是在关注的行动中……克:只是来看看其中隐含了什么。
You can't become attentive.        你无法变得关注。
That means in attention there is no time.        那意味着关注中没有时间。
Becoming implies time. S: Yes.        而变成意味着时间。谢:是的。
K: In attention there is no time.        克:关注中没有时间。
Therefore it is not the result of thought.        所以它不是思想的结果。
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: Now, is that attention silence of the mind?        克:那么,那种关注是头脑的安静吗?
Which is a healthy, sane mind,        那是一个健康的、清明的头脑,
uncluttered, unattached        没有被塞满,不依附、
unanchored, free mind, which is the healthiest mind.        不固着,自由的头脑,是最健康的头脑。
Therefore I am asking, out of that…        所以我在问,从中……
in that attention, is the mind silent?        在那关注中,头脑是安静的吗?
There is no movement of thought.        没有任何思想活动。
S: Well, it sounds like it, yes.        谢:哦,听起来像,是的。
It sounds like a state of being        听起来像是一种存在状态,
rather than a state of becoming, because it's not going anywhere        而不是一种成为状态,因为它既没有去处,
or coming from anywhere. K: Again, when you say 'being'        也没有来处。克:你说“存在”,
what does that mean? Being what?        那是什么意思?作为什么?
S: Well, being what it is. It's not being something else.        谢:哦,作为它现在的样子。而不是成为别的什么。
K: No, what does that mean, 'being'?        克:不,那是什么意思,“存在”?
Are you putting 'being' as an opposite to becoming?        你是把“存在”当作成为的对立面吗?
S: Yes. K: Ah, then...        谢:是的。克:啊,那么……
the opposite has its own opposite.        这个对立面就会有自己的反面。
S: Well, by 'being' I simply mean a state which is not in a process        谢:哦,说“存在”,我的意思只是说一种状态,它没有处在
of going somewhere else in time.        花时间去别处的过程之中。
K: Which means non-movement.        克:那意味着不运动。
S: I suppose so. B: You could say that, yes.        谢:我想是这样的。博:你可以这么说,是的。
K: Non-movement.        克:不运动。
B: If you say what you mean by movement,        博:如果按照你说的运动所指的意思,
that it doesn't mean it's static, to say it's non-movement.        说它是不运动,并不意味着它是静态的。
K: No, it's dynamic, of course.        克:不,它是动态的,当然。
B: Dynamic, but it's a little difficult.        博:动态的,但是这有点难。
K: There is no moving from here to there.        克:没有从这到那的运动。
B: But there is another kind of movement, perhaps.        博:但是或许有另一种运动。
K: That's what I want to go into.        克:那就是我想探讨的。
If we use the word 'being,'        如果我们用“存在”这个词,
without movement, it is without thought,        没有运动,那么它就没有思想、
without time,        没有时间,
which is the movement which we know.        时间是我们所知道的运动。
But the other        但是另一个
has its own dynamism,        有它自身的动力、
its own movement, but not this movement,        它自身的运动,但不是这种运动,
the time movement, the thought movement.        这种时间运动、思想运动。
Is that what you call 'being'?        那就是你所说的“存在”吗?
S: I suppose it is.        谢:我想是的。
K: Is that 'being' silent?        克:那“存在”是安静的吗?
You follow, sir?        你明白吗,先生?
We have various forms of silence.        我们有各种形式的安静。
Right? S: Yes.        对吗?谢:是的。
It may not be silent in the sense of soundless.        它也许不是指没有声音的安静。
K: I am using the word 'silence' in the sense,        克:我用“安静”这个词所指的含义是
without a single movement of thought.        没有丝毫思想的运动。
S: Well, in that sense it must be silent, almost by definition.        谢:哦,在那种意义上它必然是安静的,几乎是顾名思义。
K: Yes. So, has my mind, the mind, has it stopped thinking?        克:是的。那么,我的头脑,头脑,是否停止了思考?
Has - not stopped thinking - has thought found its own place        是否——不是停止思考——思想是否找到了自己的位置,
and therefore        因而
it's no longer moving, chattering, pushing around?        它不再运动、聒噪、四处冲撞?
Because there is no controller. You follow?        因为没有控制者。你明白吗?
Because when there is a great silence        因为当有了巨大的寂静,
then that which is eternal is.        就有了永恒。
You don't have to enquire about it.        你无需再去探询它。
It's not a process.        这不是一个过程。
It isn't something you achieve, my god!        它不是你要实现的某件事情,我的天!
By fasting, by rituals, by all these absurdities.        通过禁欲、仪式,通过所有那些愚蠢的作为。
Sir, you hear that. H: Yes.        先生,你听到了这些。希:是的。
K: You hear X saying that.        克:你听到了甲这么说。
What value has it?        这有什么价值吗?
Value in the sense - what do you do with it?        价值的意思是——你会拿它怎么办?
Has it any importance or none at all?        它有什么意义吗,抑或毫无意义?
Because you are going your way.        因为你正自行其是。
You are a psychologist, you'll go your way, I'll go my way,        你是个心理学家,你会走你的路,而我会走我的路,
because I have said what I have to say, and there it ends.        因为我说了我必须要说的话,然后到此为止。
Then what?        然后会怎么样?
Somebody comes along and says, 'I'll tell you what he means.'        有人过来说:“我来告诉你他是什么意思。”
You haven't the time. He has a little time, he says,        你没有时间。他有点时间,他说:
'I'll tell you all about it.'        “我来告诉你有关的一切。”
And you are caught.        然后你就被困住了。
This is what is happening.        这就是正在发生的事情。
From the ancient of times, the Sumerians,        从远古时代开始,苏美尔人、
the Egyptians, the Babylonians - they have played this.        埃及人、巴比伦人——他们都玩过这个。
And we are doing still the same kind of nonsense.        而我们还在继续做着同样愚蠢的事情。
And I say, what has religion done to man?        而我说,宗教对人类做了什么?
It hasn't helped him.        它没有帮助人类。
It has given him romantic illusory comfort.        它给了人们浪漫而虚幻的安慰。
Actually look what - we're killing each other - I won't go into that.        切实地看一看——我们正在自相残杀——我不会深入说那些。
So, sir, let's begin.        所以,先生,让我们开始吧。
What is a healthy mind?        什么是一颗健康的心灵?
H: It's a mind that's not caught so in this...        希:那颗心没有陷入这些……
K: A mind that's whole, healthy,        克:一颗完整、健康、
sane, holy - H-O-L-Y - holy.        清醒、神圣——H-O-L-Y——神圣的心。
All that means a healthy mind.        所有这些都意味着一颗健康的心。
That's what we started discussing.        这就是我们开始讨论的问题。
What is a healthy mind?        什么是一颗健康的心灵?
The world is so neurotic.        这个世界是如此神经质。
How are we going to tell you, as an analyst, as a psychologist,        我们要如何告诉你,作为一个分析家、一个心理学家,
how are you going to tell people what is a healthy mind,        你要如何告诉人们什么是一颗健康的心灵,
nobody's going to pay attention to it.        没人愿意关注这个问题。
They'll listen to the tape, to television,        他们会听磁带里、电视里是怎么说的,
they'll agree, but they'll go on their own way.        他们会同意,但继续走自己的路。
So what do we do? How do we…        那么我们该怎么办?我们该怎么……
First of all, do I have a healthy mind?        首先,我是否拥有一颗健康的心?
Or is it just a lot of pictures, words, images?        或者那颗心只不过是一堆画面、文字和图像?
A mind that's totally unattached        一颗完全脱离了
to my country, to my ideas,        我的国家、我的观念的心,
all totally dispassionately unattached.        冷静地彻底脱离了那一切。
H: Are you suggesting that only then am I in a position        希:你是不是说,只有此时,我才能处于
to talk to anybody? K: Obviously.        一个能对所有人讲话的位置?克:显然如此。
Obviously.        显然如此。
I may be married, I may,        我也许结婚了,我也许,
but why should I be attached to my wife?        但是我为什么要依附于我的妻子呢?
H: Then it's an idea of marriage, it's not a marriage.        希:那样就是关于婚姻的观念了,而不再是婚姻。
K: But love is not attachment.        克:但爱不是依附。
So, have I realised that in my life?        所以,我在自己的生活中意识到这一点了吗?
A healthy mind that says, 'I love, therefore there is no attachment.'        一颗健康的心会说:“我爱着,所以没有依附。”
Is that possible?        那可能吗?
S: Sir, you make it sound so easy and so difficult at the same time,        谢:先生,你让这件事情听起来是那么容易,可同时又是那么难,
because... K: I don't see why it's difficult.        因为……克:我不明白为什么很难。
S: Because, you see, I hear what you say,        谢:因为,你看,我听到了你所说的话,
I think this is absolutely wonderful stuff.        我想这真是件极其美妙的事情。
I want to have a healthy mind, I want to be in a state of being,        我想拥有一颗健康的心灵,我想身处存在的状态中,
and then I realise that it's back into this,        然后我意识到我又回到了这个状态,
that I can't become in a state of having a healthy mind,        即我无法进入那样一个拥有健康心灵的状态中,
and I can't move by an act of will or desire into this state.        我无法通过意志力的行动或者通过欲望进入那个状态中。
It has to happen. And it can't happen through any act of my will.        它得自己发生。它无法通过我的意志行为发生。
K: No. So…        克:不能。所以……
S: So I have to let it happen in some sense.        谢:所以从某种意义上来讲,我得让它发生。
K: So we begin to enquire.        克:所以我们开始探询。
You begin to say, now, why?        于是,你开始说,为什么?
Why am I not healthy? Am I attached to my house?        我为什么不健康?我依恋我的房子吗?
I need a house, why should I be attached to it?        我需要一个房子,我为什么要依恋它呢?
A wife, relationship, I can't exist without relationship,        妻子、关系,我无法脱离关系而存在,
life is relationship.        生活就是关系。
But why should I be attached to a person?        但是,我为什么要依恋某个人呢?
Or to an idea, to a faith, to a symbol - you follow? -        或者某个想法、某个信念、某个符号——你明白吗?——
the whole cycle of it:        这整个循环:
to a nation, to my guru, to my god. You follow?        依附于我的国家、我的古鲁、我的神明。你明白吗?
Attached means attached right through.        依附意味着始终是固着的。
A mind can be free of all that. Of course it can.        心灵可以摆脱那一切。它当然可以。
S: But not just by wanting to be free of it.        谢:但不是仅仅想摆脱就可以摆脱的。
K: No. But seeing the consequences of it,        克:对。但看到依附的后果,
seeing what is involved in it,        看到它隐含了什么,
the pain, the pleasure, the agony, the fear - you follow? -        痛苦、快乐、悲伤、恐惧——你明白吗?——
all of that is involved in it.        那一切都隐含其中。
Such a mind is an unhealthy mind.        这样的一颗心是不健康的心灵。
S: Yes, but one can even agree with that, one can even see it,        谢:是的,但你甚至可以同意这一点,你甚至可以看到这一点,
one can even see the movements of one's attachments,        你甚至可以看到自己依恋的活动,
one can even see the destructive consequences of all this.        你甚至可以看到这一切所具有的毁灭性后果。
But that doesn't in itself seem automatically to dissolve it.        但这本身似乎并不能自动消除依附。
K: Of course not. So, it brings in quite a different question.        克:当然不能。所以,这带来了另一个问题。
Which is, sir, do you hear it merely with your sensory ears,        也就是,先生,你是仅仅用你感官的耳朵听到了呢,
or do you really hear it?        还是真正听到了呢?
You understand my question? S: Yes.        你明白我的问题吗?谢:是的。
K: Is it just casual, verbal, sensory hearing, or hearing at depth?        克:只是随意的、语言上的、感官上的听到呢,还是深刻地听到了?
If you hear it at the greatest depth, then it's part of you.        如果你极其深入地倾听了,那么它就是你的一部分了。
I don't know if...        我不知道是不是……
B: I think that generally one doesn't hear at the greatest depth,        博:我想通常人并没有极其深入地倾听,
and something is stopping it, you see. All the conditioning.        有某种东西挡住了倾听,你看。所有的制约。
K: And also, probably we don't want to hear it.        克:还有,也许我们不想听到。
B: But the conditioning makes us not want to hear it.        博:而是那制约让我们不想听。
K: Of course, of course.        克:当然,当然。
B: We're unwilling to do so.        博:我们不愿意这么做。
K: How can I say to my wife, 'I love you but I am not attached'?        克:我要如何告诉我妻子:“我爱你,但我不依恋你?”
She'll say, 'What the hell are you talking about?' (Laughter)        她会说:“你究竟在说些什么啊?”(笑)
But if one sees the absolute necessity        但是,如果你看到了拥有一颗健康的心灵
to have a healthy mind,        是多么的必要,
and the demand for it, not only in myself,        多么需要它,不仅仅是我自己身上,
but in my children, my society.        而且我的孩子们、我的社会都需要。
H: But you don't mean by that going around demanding of myself        希:但是,你并不是说四处去要求自己
and other people that they become healthy.        和别人必须变得健康。
K: No, no. I demand in myself.        克:不,不。我要求自己。
I ask why is not my mind healthy?        我问自己我的心灵为什么不健康?
Why is it neurotic?        它为什么神经质?
Then I begin to enquire.        然后我开始探询。
I watch, I attend, I am diligent in what I am doing.        我观察,我关注,我勤奋地做我所做的事情。
B: It seems to me that you said that we must have to see        博:在我看来,你说我们必须得看到
the absolute necessity of a healthy mind, but I think,        健康心灵绝对的必要性,但是我想,
we've been conditioned to the absolute necessity        我们之前所受的制约认为绝对必要的是
of maintaining attachment. (Laughter)        保持依附状态。(笑)
And that's what we hear, right?        这就是我们所听到的,对吗?
S: Well, we haven't necessarily, there are many people,        谢:哦,我们并没有真的听到,有很多人,
who've seen that there's all these problems,        看到了所有这些问题,
there's something wrong with the mind,        看到了心灵有什么地方不对,
they feel that something to be done about it, and all that,        他们觉得需要对它和那一切做点什么,
and then take up some kind of spiritual practice,        然后开始从事某种精神练习、
meditation, whatnot.        冥想以及诸如此类的东西。
Now, you're saying that all these kinds of meditation,        现在,你说所有的这些冥想,
concentrating on chakras, and whatnot,        专注于七轮以及诸如此类的东西,
are all just the same kind of thing.        都只不过是一回事。
K: I have played that trick long ago.        克:我早就耍过这些把戏了。
S: Yes.        谢:是的。
K: And I see the absurdity of all that.        克:我看到了那一切的荒谬。
That is not going to stop thought.        那不会停止思想。
S: Well, some of these methods are supposed to.        谢:哦,某些方法应该可以。
I don't know if they do or not. They've never done it for me, or...        我不知道它们能不能。它们从没让我做到过,或者……
but I don't know if that's because I haven't done them enough.        但是我不知道是不是因为我做得不够。
K: So, instead of going through all that business        克:所以,与其从事那些事情,
why don't you find out, let's find out what is thought,        你为什么不去发现,我们一起来发现思想是什么,
whether it can end, what is implied.        它能否停止,它意味着什么。
You follow? Dig!        你明白吗?挖掘!
Sir, at the end of these four discussions        先生,在这四次讨论的末尾,
have you got healthy minds?        你拥有了健康的心灵吗?
Have you got a mind that is not confused,        你拥有了一颗不困惑、
groping, floundering,        探索、搜寻、
demanding, asking?        探求和询问的心灵吗?
You follow, sir?        你明白吗,先生?
What a business!        这是怎样的一件事情啊!
It's like seeing a rattler and say,        就像看到一条响尾蛇,然后说:
'Yes, that's a rattler, I won't go near it.' Finished!        “是的,那是一条响尾蛇,我不会走近的。”完了!
H: It looks from the inside like this is a tremendous deep problem,        希:从内在看,似乎有深刻而巨大的问题,
that's very difficult to solve,        它很难解决,
and you're saying from the outside,        而你从外在说,
that it's just like seeing a rattler, and you don't go near it,        那就好像看到了一条响尾蛇,你不走近它,
there's nothing to it.        没有别的了。
K: It is like that with me. H: Yes.        克:对我来说就是这样的。希:是的。
K: Because I don't want to achieve nirvana, or heaven, or anything.        克:因为我不想到达涅槃、天堂或者任何东西。
I say, 'Look' - you follow?        我说:“看”——你明白吗?
H: Well, I think it's interesting, why it looks so deep        希:哦。我想这很有趣,为什么它看起来那么艰深,
when in fact it isn't.        而事实上并非如此。
K: No, sir, we are all so very superficial.        克:不,先生,我们都太肤浅了。
Right?        对吗?
And that seems to satisfy us.        而那似乎让我们很满意。
That's our... good house, good wife,        那是我们的……漂亮房子、漂亮妻子,
good job, good relationship - don't disturb anything.        好工作、良好的关系——不要扰乱任何事情。
I'll go to church, you go to the mosque,        我会去教堂,你去清真寺,
I'll go to the temple - keep things as they are.        我会去寺庙——让事情保持原样。
H: Then you're saying, we don't even want to look at it.        希:于是你说,我们甚至都不愿意看一看。
K: Of course not. H: But say, we come with a problem...        克:当然不愿意。希:但是,比如说,我们带着问题来……
K: If Mrs. Thatcher and the gentleman in Argentina looked at it,        克:如果撒切尔夫人和阿根廷的那些要人看一看,
how tribalistic they are - they would stop it.        他们是何等极端的部落主义者——他们会停下来的。
But they don't, because the public doesn't want it.        但是他们不愿意,因为公众不想要这些。
British - you follow?        英国人——你明白吗?
We are educated to be cruel to each other.        我们所受的教育就是要彼此残忍以待。
I won't go into all that.        我们不会再讲那些了。
So, a healthy mind is that, sir.        所以,健康的心灵是那样的,先生。
A healthy mind is without any conflict.        一颗健康的心灵没有任何冲突。
Then it is a holistic mind.        因而它是一颗完整的心。
And then there's a possibility of that which is sacred to be.        然后神圣者就成为了可能。
Otherwise all this is so childish.        否则这一切都太幼稚了。
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