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Malibu '70 Small Group Discussions70年马力布小组讨论 _ 5

K: What shall we talk about?        我们来谈些什么呢?
Q: Something for the sake of breaking the ice...        问:说些能打破坚冰的事情……
K: Don't break the ice. Q: [Laughs] OK.        克:不要打破坚冰。问:【笑】好的。
K: What shall we talk...?        克:我们谈点什么?
Q: Psychoanalysts often talk about the censor and about resistance,        问:精神分析学家经常谈到审查者以及抗拒,
and I'm interested in hearing a discussion        我有兴趣听一听
on the nature of the censor and resistance. Maybe they're the same.        关于审查者和抗拒的本质的讨论。也许它们是一回事。
K: The censor and resistance. Q: Yes.        克:审查者和抗拒。问:是的。
K: Should we talk about that?        克:我们讨论这个吗?
I suppose anything will do except...[laughs]        我估计谈什么都可以,除了……【笑】
Perhaps we could talk about that,        也许我们可以讨论这个,
enlarge and come into that,        扩展到这个,
if we talked about, a little bit, about attention.        不过我们先讨论一下有关注意力的问题,
Shall we?        好吗?
Would that be worthwhile,        是不是有必要讨论一下
talk about the inattention and attention?        漫不经心和注意力的问题?
Because it seems to me we pass most of our lives in inattention,        因为我们似乎在漫不经心中度过了我们的大部分生命,
except in moments, or events, or crises        除了在某些时刻、事件或危机中,
where we have got to pay attention,        那时我们不得不全神贯注,
where we have to give our mind and heart        我们不得不倾注我们的头脑和心灵
and everything we have to solve that issue.        以及我们所有的一切去解决问题。
But most of the time we spend our life, don't we,        但在大部分时间里,我们更多地把生命耗费在
rather drifting along, though we are very occupied,        随波逐流上,不是吗?尽管我们事务缠身,
and the very occupation becomes a form of inattention,        但正是这种事务缠身变成了一种漫不经心,
where there isn't much to do there, you keep rolling.        即使没有多少事情可做,你仍然转个不停。
Would that be of any consequential interest?        那有什么间接的好处吗?
How does this happen,        怎么会这样呢?
that we waste our life so inordinately,        我们如此无度地浪费着我们的生命,
drifting along, and totally        随波逐流,并且完全
- we won't use the word 'totally' -        ——我们不用“完全”这个词——
with a great deal of inattention in our lives?        在我们的生活中极度漫不经心,这是怎么回事?
I was told of an article        有人告诉我有一篇文章,
recently written in one of the weekly magazines,        是最近写在一个周刊杂志上的,
where the Zen Buddhist monks, Zen monks,        写到佛教禅宗的僧人,禅僧
were able so completely be attentive        能够如此完全地集中注意力,
that their reactions were very slow,        以致于他们的反应会非常慢,
because they had trained themselves        因为他们用大量的注意力和兴趣
with a great deal of attention and interest,        来训练自己,
so that any reaction        所以,常人会有的那些反应
which an ordinary human being would have was very slow.        在他们身上会变得非常缓慢。
I don't know if you...        我不知道你们是不是……
Q: Reaction to what, sir?        问:对什么的反应,先生?
K: Ordinary physical reactions, psychological reactions,        克:平常的身体反应,心理反应,
psychosomatic reactions.        精神反应。
Q: You mean it was thought out kind of slowly and...        问:你是说反应是慢慢思考后做出的并且……
K: No, it was just observed without any response.        克:不,它只是被观察到没有任何反应。
You see, I'm trying to...        你看,我在尽量……
Q: I think we would generally think that that was inattentive,        问:我想我们通常会认为那是注意力不集中,
because we usually respond very fast or react fast.        因为我们通常应答得非常快或反应很快。
K: I wonder how we can approach this, if it interests you at all.        克:我想知道我们怎么来理解这个问题,如果你对它感兴趣的话。
Q: What is attention?        问:注意力是什么?
K: Do you think attention        克:你是不是认为注意力
has a very limited meaning?        的涵义非常有限?
Like concentration has a very limited meaning, hasn't it?        就像专注的意思非常局限一样,不是吗?
Do you think...I don't know how far you've gone into it,        你是不是认为……我不知道你对它的探究有多深入,
that's why I daren't... Should we plunge into it and go on?        这就是为什么我不敢……我们是不是该直接深入进去,然后继续?
I don't know if you really want to, if you're interested in this,        我不知道你们是不是真的想深入进去,是不是对这个感兴趣,
because, you see,        因为,你看,
I think, in understanding attention        我认为,在理解注意力的过程中,
we should be able to observe ourselves much more clearly,        我们应该能够把我们自己看得更清楚,
without any resistance, without the censor.        不带任何抗拒,也没有审查者。
Because understanding oneself is of primary importance, obviously        因为了解自己显然是最首要的
- oneself who is a living entity        ——人本身是一个鲜活的实体,
and therefore the observation        所以,
must also be very attentive in that living sense,        在鲜活的生命这个意义上,观察也必须是全神贯注的,
in which, as we said, there is no censor or resistance.        正如我们所说,其中没有审查者或抗拒。
So, in understanding myself, or yourself, or a human being        所以,在理解我自己、你自己或一个人的过程中,
one must have this quality of attention.        人必须拥有注意力这项品质。
That is, in watching oneself,        就是说,在观察自己的过程中,
if you have done it at all,        如果你曾经这么做过的话,
there is a process of learning which is not accumulation.        有一个并非积累的学习过程。
The accumulation then becomes the censor and a means of resistance.        积累就会变成审查者和一种抵抗的手段。
I don't know if...        我不知道是否……
Q: The attention would be an openness, an awareness...        问:注意力是一种开放,一种觉知……
K: No. We're going to find out, we're going to explore it together.        克:不。我们来弄清楚,我们要一起探索它。
I want to watch myself, I want to learn about myself        我想观察自己,我想了解我自己
- not according to Freud, Jung,        ——不是按照弗洛伊德、荣格,
or some other specialist, or not specialist -        或别的什么专家,或非专家——
I want to learn about myself.        我想了解我自己。
The first thing I have to learn        我首先必须学习的事情
is to unlearn the meaning of that word 'to learn.'        是忘掉“学习”这个词的涵义。
Learning implies, generally, accumulation of knowledge        学习通常意味着知识的积累,
from which to act, to think, to function        根据知识去行动、思考、运作
- technological field, in the science, and so on, engineers, and so on.        ——在技术领域,在科学中,等等,工程师,等等。
Now, here we are dealing with a very living thing.        现在,我们面对的是一个非常鲜活的东西。
The self, which is to be understood,        要理解的自我
is a living, moving, vital thing,        是有生命的、活动的、生机勃勃的东西,
moving all the time, changing, and I have to learn about it.        一直在运动、变化,而我必须了解它。
Now, if I learn about it, to learn about it,        那么,如果我去了解它,想要了解它,
the observer must come fresh to it.        观察者就必须以崭新的姿态去接近它。
If he comes burdened, he's already translating what he sees        如果他带着沉重的负担,他就已经在根据他先前的知识
according to his previous knowledge.        来诠释他所看到的一切了。
I don't know if this...        我不清楚这是否……
So he's always translating what he sees in terms of the past.        所以他总是根据过去来解释他所看到的。
The past then becomes the censor        过去就变成了审查者,
and therefore censor says,        于是审查者说:
'I'll resist this and accept this.'        “我要反对这个,接受那个。”
Right, sir?        对吗,先生?
So, the problem then is how to observe        那么,问题就变成了怎样观察
without accumulation.        而不积累。
Learning through observation        通过观察来学习,
without the process of accumulation taking place,        而没有发生积累的过程,
so learning is a movement        因而学习本身就是一种运动
- not from a movement, from a root.        ——而不是来自某种运动,也不是来自某种固化的根本。
I don't know if I...        我不知道我是不是……
Q: It's not just accumulation, it's also exclusion as well.        问:那种学习不仅是积累,而且也是排除。
Wouldn't it be not only accumulation but exclusion?        难道不是不仅仅积累而且也排除吗?
K: Of course. Resistance means exclusion.        克:当然。抗拒意味着排除。
The moment I resist, I exclude, naturally.        当我抗拒时,我自然就会排除。
So the question is: how to observe,        所以,问题是:怎样观察,
to learn and not to accumulate.        怎样学习而不积累。
It's quite... if you go into it, it becomes quite subtle,        那非常……如果你深入进去,它就会变得非常微妙,
quite extraordinarily interesting.        非常非常有趣。
To know oneself        认识自己,
without the pressure of the past        而没有过去的压力
interfering with what is being learned.        干涉正在了解的东西。
Now, how does this happen?        那么,这怎样才能发生?
Analysis implies the analyser, the censor        分析意味着分析者、审查者
- right? -        ——对吗?——
a fragment separating itself from other fragments        一个把自己与其他碎片分离开来的碎片
and assuming authority to analyse.        装作分析的权威。
But that fragment is interrelated with the rest of the fragments        但这个碎片与其他碎片是相关联的,
which go to make up the human entity.        一起组成人这个实体。
So, to observe without analysis - I don't know if you follow all this -        所以,不带分析的观察——我不知道你们是不是完全理解了——
which means not to come to a conclusion ever,        那意味着,永远不要得出结论,
never to say to myself, 'I know myself'        绝不对自己说,“我了解我自己”
- so that is the problem.        ——那种说法就是问题。
So, the specialists have said, you know,        所以,专家说过,你知道,
the people like the Zen and other people,        禅宗的人,以及其他一些人,
said cultivate attention, awareness,        说培养注意力、觉察,
cultivate awareness so that there is no interference of the past.        培养觉察力,来实现没有过去的干涉。
They don't put it that way, I'm translating it that way.        他们不是这样表达的,我把它翻译成这样。
I don't know if it interests you all this, does it?        我不知道你们是不是对此感兴趣,有兴趣吗?
(You've got a bad eye, I've got a bad tooth - to make up.)        (你有一只眼睛不好,我有一颗牙不好——扯平了。)
So that is really one of the major issues of attention        所以那真正是关于注意力的主要问题之一
- to attend without the observer, the censor,        ——关注而不带有观察者、审查者,
the entity that resists, that is capable of focusing,        不带着那个抗拒、能聚焦、
and therefore concentrating, and therefore excluding.        进而专注并有所排除的实体。
I don't know... All right, let's go...        我不知道……好吧,让我们继续……
I see the importance        我看到了那种重要性
- I'm using the word 'I' as just a means of communication, and so on -        ——我使用“我”这个词,仅作为一种交流的手段,诸如此类——
there is the importance of learning the whole structure        了解自我的整个结构
and the nature of oneself.        和本质的重要性。
The oneself is the rest of the humanity        一个人自身就是整个人类
- that's obvious so we don't have to beat that to death.        ——显然如此,所以我们不必对此穷追到底。
Oneself is the whole social,        你自身就是整个社会、
environmental, cultural result.        环境、文化的产物。
And to bring about a social, or environmental,        而要带来社会的、环境的
or cultural change, revolution,        或文化的改变、革命,
one has to begin the change,        你就必须从自身的改变、
the revolution in oneself - obviously -        自身的革命开始——显然如此——
because one is the rest of humanity.        因为你就是整个人类。
It is not oneself first and humanity next,        不是首先是你自己,然后是人类,
it is a total movement of the human being. Right?        这是人类的整体运动。对吗?
To change implies learning about oneself.        转变意味着了解自身。
And to learn there must be freedom,        而要了解就必须有自由,
a curiosity, and an intensity. That's obvious.        有好奇心和强烈的热情。这很明显。
Now, learning implies the non-interference of the censor,        那么,了解意味着没有审查者的干涉,
the censor who is the past, the accumulated knowledge,        审查者就是过去,就是积累的知识,
both the personal, and impersonal, and all the rest of it.        包括个人的、非个人的,诸如此类的一切。
Now, is it possible...        那么,有没有可能……
can one learn without accumulating?        你能否了解而不积累?
Right? Can we start with that?        对吗?我们能从这里开始吗?
Now, how do you proceed? Go on, sirs.        那么,你怎样去进行?加油,先生们。
I want to learn about myself.        我想了解自己。
Can I observe myself without the word?        我能观察自己而不使用语言吗?
Because the word invariably condemns or justifies.        因为语言总是谴责或辩护。
Q: Also words are the result of culture.        问:语言也是文化的产物。
K: Right. Look at the difficulty you are going to have:        克:对。看看你将要遇到的困难:
to observe without the word.        不带词语地观察。
Try it. Do it. You'll see how extraordinary difficult it is.        去试一下。去做一做。你会看到那是多么困难。
Jealousy, to observe the feeling        嫉妒,去观察这种感受,
without introducing the word 'jealousy,'        而不引入“嫉妒”那个词,
because that word has many connotations,        因为那个词有很多暗示,
condemnatory generally.        总的来说是谴责性的。
So to observe that feeling and learn all about it without the word.        所以,观察那个感受,了解它的一切而不带着那个词。
Q: Sir, one thing I notice when I do that is that a censor comes into it,        问:先生,当我这样做的时候,我注意到一个事情,就是有个审查者进来,
and the censor tries to...as the words come up the censor tries to push...        并且,那个审查者试图……当那个词浮现的时候,审查者试图排除……
K: No, no, that's... If you push it away you're resisting.        克:不,不,那就……如果你排除它,你就是在抗拒。
Q: I know, that's what I mean.        问:我知道,我就是那个意思。
K: See what is implied in it.        克:看看其中意味着什么。
Q: Sir, when you ask that question        问:先生,当你问那个问题的时候,
are you speaking in terms of a physical reaction that you may feel?        你说的是不是你感觉到的身体反应?
K: Physical, psychological, the whole of it, not just physical response,        克:身体的、心理的,整个的,不仅是身体的反应,
because physical response is related to psyche,        因为身体的反应与心灵等等是相关的,
and so on - interrelated responses.        ——是互相关联的反应。
To observe without naming it        不带命名地观察
- which implies condemnation, or justification,        ——命名意味着谴责、辩护
or various forms of suppression. Right?        或者各种形式的压制。对吗?
Can the mind observe,        意识能不能观察、
learn, watch, listen,        了解、看、听,
without naming,        而不命名、
without any form of resistance?        不带有任何形式的抵制?
Q: Any descriptive term also?        问:不带任何描述性的词语?
K: Obviously, because the description is not the described.        克:显然不带,因为描述不是被描述之物。
Q: But why do the descriptions... [inaudible]        问:但是描述为什么……【无法听清】
K: The word then colours the observation,        克:词语赋予观察色彩,
because the word says 'jealousy,' or 'anger,' or whatever it is,        因为词语说“嫉妒”或“愤怒”,或者无论什么,
and the word has already condemned it.        那个词已经谴责它了。
Q: Isn't it something, say, painful,        问:难道不是某种东西,比如说,痛苦,
when you experience the sense of pain, what remains?        当你体验到痛苦的感觉,会剩下什么?
That is the immediate thing, it isn't that the words...        那是直接的事情,那并不是言语……
K: No. If one has a physical pain... Q: Or psychological.        克:不。如果你有身体上的痛苦……问:或者心理上的。
K: ...psychological pain - watch it, it's very interesting -        克:……或心理痛苦——看着它,这非常有趣——
why do you have psychological pain? It's a form of resistance.        你为什么有心理痛苦?它是一种抗拒的形式。
No? The censor doesn't like it.        不是吗?审查者不喜欢它。
The censor, who is the accumulated knowledge,        审查者,也就是积累的知识,
doesn't want that particular kind of response,        不想要这种特别的反应,
or reaction, or experience, or incident, event, and so on,        或者回应、体验、事件,等等,
so he shrinks from it, he doesn't like it, it's painful to him.        所以他会从那里退缩,他不喜欢它,他为之痛苦。
Can one...I mean...        你能不能……我的意思是……
Observation without the censor implies all that.        不带审查者的观察意味着所有这些。
Q: But does the pain develop because of the censor,        问:但痛苦是不是因为审查者而产生的,
or is the pain something separate from the censor?        或者,痛苦是不同于审查者的什么东西吗?
K: No. How can it be different from the censor?        克:不。它怎么能与审查者不同呢?
If there was no censor in the psychological sense,        如果在心理上没有审查者,
would there be pain?        痛苦还存在吗?
Q: Doesn't an animal feel...        问:难道一个动物感到……
K: Don't bring in the animal, [laughs] we are human beings.        克:不要把动物拉进来,【笑】我们是人类。
Let's stick to this        让我们紧跟这个主题
- difficult enough as it is, without going to the animal.        ——尽管不扯到动物上去是挺困难的。
Q: Sir, why do we have this need to name these various things        问:先生,我们为什么有这种需要,要去命名
that go on inside us? Is that a part of...        我们内心进行的各种活动?那是不是属于……
K: No, it's part of our culture, part of our resistance,        克:不,那是我们文化的一部分,我们的抗拒的一部分,
part of our...saying 'I'm learning about it.'        我们…….的一部分,说着“我在了解它。”
Q: But it also has to do with an insecurity.        问:但那也与某种不安全感有关。
If you see something and you can't name it,        如果你看到什么而不能命名,
something really different... K: That's right, that's right.        看到某种真正不同的事物……克:对,没错。
Q: A way to remain in control. Q: Right.        问:一种处于掌控之中的方式。问:对。
Q: We're talking about a psychological pain that develops.        问:我们在讨论产生的某种心理痛苦。
If we don't name it as jealousy or hatred,        如果我们不称之为嫉妒或恨,
but you sense some feeling of pain, and your reactions do something.        但你感到了某种痛苦,而你的反应有所行动。
The censor is doing that.        审查者正在这么做。
Now, my question is a strange one:        那么,我有一个奇怪的问题:
you say when there is no censor there is no pain厊       
K: Is there? Q: You have to begin somewhere though.        克:有吗?问: 即使这样你也必须从某个地方开始。
K: I begin observing the censor.        克:我从观察那个审查者开始。
The censor is observing himself and seeing how he produces pain.        审查者在观察他自己,并且看到他是怎样制造痛苦的。
Q: But who is observing? K: Wait, wait, that's the point.        问:但,是谁在观察呢?克:别急,别急,那就是关键点。
Who is observing the observer?        谁在观察那个观察者?
Right?        对吗?
The watcher is to be watched.        那个观看者就是要被观看的。
Who is observing the observer?        谁在观察那个观察者?
Which is, if the observer is not,        也就是,如果不是观察者在观察,
is there an observer at all?        那么还会有观察者存在吗?
No, this becomes too complex, sir, let's go slowly.        不,这变得太复杂了,先生,我们慢点来。
Because this is quite difficult to go into it.        因为要深入这个问题确实非常困难。
As we said, I want to learn about myself, observe myself.        就像我们说的,我想要了解自己、观察自己。
In the observation I discover there is the censor,        在观察的过程中,我发现存在那个审查者,
the censor who is the result of the past, is the past        审查者作为过去的产物,它就是过去
- like, dislike, various forms of experiences, memories, fear -        ——喜欢,不喜欢,各种形式的经验、记忆、恐惧——
is the past, he is that.        就是过去,他就是那个。
As we said, he separates himself from the rest of the desires,        就像我们说的,他把自己与其他的欲望、
fragments, hopes, fears, and says: I'm going to change,        碎片、希望、恐惧分开,说:我要变化,
I'm going to control, I'm going to censor.        我要控制,我要审查。
But he's still part of the fragment.        但他仍然是碎片的一部分。
Now, can there be observation without the censor, of the parts?        那么,能不能不带着审查者去观察各个部分?
Because if there is the censor,        因为如果有个审查者,
there's always a conflict going on, a contradiction,        就总会发生冲突、矛盾,
and therefore this battle, the inward struggle, the battle.        因而就会存在这种斗争,内在的挣扎、斗争。
So I see this very... one sees this very clearly,        所以,我看到这点……你非常清楚地看到这点,
either intellectually or verbally,        不论是从智力上还是言语上,
and now to find out the reality of it        而要去弄清楚现实情况如何,
is quite a different thing - right?        那是一件截然不同的事情——对吗?
I want to find out if I can observe without the censor        我想发现我能不能观察而不带有审查者
- to observe you        ——去观察
who have flattered, insulted, hurt, stolen, whatever it is,        奉承过、侮辱过、伤害过、盗窃过,等等等等的你,
without any interference of the past.        而不带有任何过去的干涉。
There'd be reaction, naturally,        自然会有某些反应,
but not the memory        但记忆没有
involved in that reaction. I don't know if I'm...        被牵涉到反应中。我不知道我是不是……
You've hurt me.        你伤害了我。
When I see you next time,        当我下次看到你,
to observe you without the hurt - I don't know if...-        不带着那个伤害去观察你——我不知道是不是……——
without the memory of the hurt.        不带着伤害的记忆。
Because if I have the memory of the hurt,        因为如果我有伤害的记忆,
there's a resistance against you and a fight,        就会对你有抵触,有某种斗争,
both outwardly and inwardly.        外在会有表现,内心也会有。
That's one point.        这是一点。
Suppose you steal my purse,        比方说你偷了我的钱包,
my bonds, whatever it is, if one has it        我的证券,无论什么,如果我有的话
- thank God I haven't got any - so then how do I meet you?        ——感谢上帝我一点也没有——那么我要怎样面对你?
Or if you're my wife or my husband        或者,你是我的妻子或丈夫,
and we have lived for so long together,        我们一起生活了很长时间,
the image of you and the image of me is so very deeply rooted,        你的形象和我的形象都已经根深蒂固,
can I look at her or him, can the mind...        我能不能看着她或他,头脑能否……
can there be observation of him, of her, without the image?        能不能对他或她进行观察,却不带着过去的印象?
So the observation of her or him is total attention, isn't it?        这样对她或他的观察就是全然的关注,不是吗?
I don't know if...        我不知道是否……
To attend without naming,        关注而不命名,
without identifying thought with the image,        不让想法去认同形象,
without the censor,        不带有审查者,
all this needs a tremendous inward discipline        这一切都需要内心有强大的纪律
- discipline in the sense of learning.        ——学习意义上的纪律。
The very act of learning is its own discipline.        学习的行动本身就是它自己的纪律。
Q: Sir, is it possible to observe without a censor        问:先生,不带有审查者的观察,这可能吗?
so long as one has a motive for observing        如果一个人有观察的动机
or a motive for understanding? K: Of course...obviously not.        或者理解的动机的话?克:当然……显然不可能。
Q: So as long as one has a reason for finding something out        问:所以,只要一个人因为某种原因,要去发现什么的话,
he would always observe with an image.        他就总是会带着印象去观察。
K: Of course.        克:当然。
No, wait a minute.        不,等一会。
I want to learn about myself.        我想了解我自己。
Is there a reason behind that want?        这种需要背后有个原因吗?
There can be a reason, because I want to escape from misery,        可能有一个原因,因为我想从痛苦、
from conflict, from various forms of travail, and so on        从冲突、从各种形式的辛劳等等之中逃出去
- that can be the motive for learning about myself.        ——这可能是我了解自己的动机。
And in observing I discover the motive and put it aside,        而在观察中我发现了这个动机,并且把它抛开,
say that's not learning.        说:那不是了解。
So all these things are involved in learning,        所以,当有观察存在的时候,所有这些东西
in being attentive when there is observation.        就都会包含在了解和关注中。
Now, most of us are inattentive. Right?        而我们大多数人都漫不经心。对吗?
How is that inattention to end and attention take place?        这种漫不经心怎样才能终止,关注又怎样才能发生?
Is that the question? Is that the right question?        这是否就是问题所在?这是正确的问题吗?
How does it happen        头脑怎样才能
that the mind can be totally attentive,        全神贯注,
in the sense we are talking about,        当我们的生命大部分都消耗在漫不经心中,
when most of our life is spent in inattention?        怎样才能有我们所说的这种意义上的全神贯注?
How is this to change?        怎样才能改变这种状况?
Q: You mentioned earlier the Zen Buddhists        问:你前面提到过那些禅僧,
who practise some sort of attention,        他们练习某种注意力,
in their own way,        按照他们自己的方式,
they have their own way of doing it,        他们用自己的方式去做,
now that's not the attention you're talking about, obviously.        而那显然不是你所说的注意力。
K: I don't know the meaning of their word 'attention' because that's...        克:我不了解他们说的“注意力”是什么意思,因为那是……
Look, sir, I don't know if you've gone        你看,先生,我不知道你究竟有没有深入研究过
into the question of meditation at all, any of you.        冥想这个问题,你们中的任何一个人。
There, the whole Asiatic concept of meditation is control        在亚洲,冥想的整个概念就是控制
- control of the body and the bodily responses        ——控制身体和身体的反应,
and not to allow thought to wander at all,        完全不让思想游离,
but completely focused, concentrated,        而是完全集中、专注,
and so bring about a tranquility of the mind        以此带来头脑的宁静,
in which alone that supreme something        其中就有某种至高无上的东西
can be understood, or revealed, or lived.        能够被理解、被揭示,或被经历。
I'm putting it very crudely but that is generally the idea.        我概括得很简略,但大体就是这个意思。
And one sees the tremendous danger of this.        而我看到了这个想法中存在巨大的危险。
I don't know if you're interested in all this.        我不知道你们对这一切是不是感兴趣。
Because I met a man once - not 'I,' doesn't matter -        因为我曾经遇到过一个人——不是“我”遇到,没关系——
we met a man once,        我们曾遇到一个人,
he had given up a very good position        他放弃了一个非常好的位置,
as a some kind of bureaucratic position, high up,        官僚机构中一个高高在上的职位,
because one morning he woke up and said,        因为一天早上他醒来,说:
'I pass judgment on others        “我判决别人,
and I want to know what the meaning of truth is,        而我想知道真理意味着什么,
because I am passing judgment all day long        因为我整天在判决别人
- this should be done, that should be done, he should go to prison -        ——这应该做,那应该做,他应该进监狱——
you know, all the rest of it.'        你知道,诸如此类。”
He said, 'I want to find out the truth of it, what is truth.'        他说:“我想发现真理,什么是真理。”
So he disappeared.        所以,他消失了。
That's easy in India because you can put on a robe of the monk        在印度,那是很容易的事,因为你可以穿上僧袍,
and wander from village to village and they'll feed you,        从村庄到村庄地流浪,而人们会给你饭吃,
and clothe you, and be very respectful to you        给你衣服穿,并且尊敬你
- that's the tradition, the man who leaves the world seeking truth        ——那是传统,离世寻求真理的人
is to be maintained by society -        将由社会供养——
and there are crooks who do that too, that's understood.        并且也有骗子那样做,这可想而知。
So for 25 years he was meditating        就这样,他进行了25年的冥想
- 25 years, he was an oldish man,        ——25年,他变成了一个老人,
and they brought him        他们带他过来,
and he said, 'You know,        他说:“你知道,
I was listening to your talk the other day about meditation        前两天我听了你关于冥想的讲话,
and I see what I've done, I've really hypnotised myself,        我看到了自己的所做所为,我实际上催眠了自己,
I have projected my own desires, feelings,        我投射了自己对真理的渴望、感情、
the knowledge about truth, and so on,        知识,等等,
and lived in a vision of one's own creation.'        活在了自己虚构的幻象中。”
For an old man to admit that much was tremendous.        作为一个老人,能承认那么多,是非常了不起的。
Which means the observer is meditating.        那意味着是观察者在冥想。
The observer is controlling the rest of the fragments.        观察者在控制着其他的碎片。
So, to observe without control.        所以,要没有控制地观察。
I don't know if you've ever done all these things - great fun.        我不知道你有没有做过所有这些事情——这非常有趣。
Because control means resistance        因为控制意味着抗拒
- one fragment opposing another fragment.        ——一个碎片反对另外一个碎片。
Q: Am I right in thinking that to observe without control        问:我这么想是不是正确:不带控制的观察
would be to observe without words?        就是不带言语的观察?
K: Obviously - all that's implied.        克:显然如此——就是这个意思。
Q: And if that's the case then is it the case too        问:如果是那样的话,那么
that while we can lead up evocatively,        也许当我们与某个实现了这一点的人进行某种交谈时,
perhaps in a certain conversation, to someone achieving that.        能够率先唤起某种感受,这时候是不是同样的情况?
That it cannot be depicted, described - words can't capture that.        它无法被刻画或者描述——言语无法企及。
K: No, sir. You see, the word 'achievement'        克:不,先生。你看,“实现”这个词
already denies the whole thing,        已经否定了整件事情,
because there's already a motive behind it, to arrive somewhere.        因为它后面早就有个动机,想要到达什么地方。
You see, it requires a great deal of observation of all this.        你看,需要对这一切进行大量的观察。
Sir, come back, let's go back.        先生,回来,让我们回去。
Is there observation without any control?        有没有不带任何控制的观察呢?
Control being the censor,        控制就是审查者,
resistance, suppression,        反抗、压制,
or saying, 'Well, I've no control...' - that's too silly, either.        或者说,“哦,我没有控制……”——那也太愚蠢了。
So, is it possible to observe - not 'possible' -        所以,有没有可能去观察——不是“可能”——
to observe without any of this?        完全不带着这些东西去观察?
Q: Wanting to gain something, isn't that interfering with attention?        问:想得到什么,难道不就干涉了注意力?
Wanting to gain something, doesn't that prevent...        想得到什么东西,难道不会阻碍……
K: Of course, of course, of course.        克:当然,当然,当然。
After all, if one sees what is happening        归根结底,如果一个人看到世界上和自身中
in the world and in oneself,        正在发生什么,
this fantastic violence, aggression,        这些难以置信的暴力、侵略,
with all the things implied in it        及其隐含的所有东西
- and playing with non-violence is just idiocy,        ——而玩弄非暴力完全是愚蠢的行为,
the ideology of it and all that.        它的整个思想体系都很愚蠢。
To see the implications of violence and be totally free of it        看到暴力所隐含的一切,并完全摆脱出来
- not as an achievement        ——不是作为一种成就,
but the understanding of the whole nature of violence.        而是理解暴力的整个本质。
Q: Is this observation, when it takes place,        问:当这种观察发生的时候,
something which, say,        它是一种,比方说,
one can be doing all one's waking hours,        只要人清醒就能做到的事情吗,
or is it something that takes place occasionally?        或者只是偶尔才发生的事情?
K: Sir, as we are listening and discussing here,        克:先生,就像我们在这里听到和讨论的,
is it possible to observe...        有没有可能去观察……
are you observing in that sense        按照你刚才所说的那种含义,
which you have talked about just now?        你是在那样观察吗?
Observing, which includes listening        观察,包含了听
and learning        和了解在内
- observing means observing, seeing, listening, learning -        ——观察意味着观察、看见、倾听、了解——
all a movement.        都是一个运动。
And you're asking: does this happen,        而你问:这会不会、
can this happen all during the day,        这能不能全天都发生呢?
or does it happen only, or partially, during the period of sleep?        还是它仅仅,或部分地发生在睡眠的时候?
Q: Oh, I didn't mean to ask about sleep.        问:噢,我不是要问睡眠的事情。
I meant, rather, is it something        我的意思是,它是不是
that can happen only occasionally or can one...        偶尔才发生的事情,或者人能不能……
K: It must happen all the time, otherwise no point.        克:它必须始终都在发生,否则就没有意义。
You know, from that another question arises, which is:        你知道,那又引出了另外一个问题,就是:
the censor is very deeply rooted - right? -        审查者是根深蒂固的——对吗?——
deep down in one's being he's rooted.        深深扎根于人生命的最深处。
One can observe superficially, consciously,        人能够从表面上有意识地去观察,
without the observer        不带有观察者
- that's comparatively easy if one has gone into it,        ——如果你探究过这一点,那还是比较容易的,
watches it, you know, that's comparatively easy.        观察它,你知道,相对比较容易。
But there is this deep rooted censor in the very recesses,        但根深蒂固的审查者仍然存在于人生命的最深处,
in the dungeons of one's being,        在深深的地窖里,
in the caves of one's heart, and so on.        在人内心深处的洞穴等等之中。
How does it happen to bring all that out?        怎么才能把这一切都释放出来?
I don't know if it interests you, all this.        我不知道你们是不是对所有这些事情感兴趣。
Q: Are you asking if it's possible to end the past once and for all?        问:你是不是在问有没有可能一劳永逸地终结过去?
K: No, not quite. That is a question but that's not relevant,        克:不,不全是。那也是个问题,但并不相关,
if you don't mind, at the moment.        如果你不介意的话,暂时不相关。
Here is a problem which I think must strike everybody.        我认为所有人都会受到这个问题的袭扰。
I can...one can be superficially observant - right? -        我能……人能从表面上观察——对吧?——
I can observe your red shirt, your silver - whatever it is -        我可以观察你的红衬衣,你的银饰——诸如此类——
dress, and so on, so on, so on,        裙子,等等,等等,等等,
and learn the trick of not condemning.        并且学会了不去贬低你这个伎俩。
It's a trick.        那是个伎俩。
But at the deeper layers, deep down,        但在更深的层次,往下深入,
the censor is in operation,        有个审查者在起作用,
of which one may not be conscious at all.        对这一点,人可能根本意识不到。
And that censor generally takes charge        审查者通常在
at the moment of inattention.        漫不经心的时候掌权。
I don't know if you follow all this.        我不知道你们有没有理解这些。
And the moment of inattention is sleep.        漫不经心的时候就是睡着了。
Am I saying anything scandalous?        我说了什么令人反感的话吗?
Because then this censor projects dreams        因为此时审查者会投射出梦境
- you know, all the rest of it takes place.        ——你知道,诸如此类的事情就会发生。
Q: Will this come to the state        问:这会达到那种状态,
that one can be asleep with your eyes open?        也就是人会睁着眼睛睡觉吗?
K: Wait, sir. No. Look, don't go off to the results yet - you'll find out.        克:别急,先生。不是这样的。你看,不要马上跳到结果——你会弄清楚的。
See what takes place. I am inquiring.        看看会发生什么。我在探询。
We're inquiring.        我们在探询。
I can be...        我能……
one can be attentive off and on during the day,        一个人能在一天中把注意力打开或关上,
watching, train oneself like an animal to watch.        观察,训练自己像动物一样观察。
I've seen that with a great many people        我看到过很多人
who have listened to all this,        在听了这些以后,
and say, 'I'm going to train myself to be very attentive        说:“我要训练自己全神贯注,
and pay tremendous attention during the daytime.'        在白天付出极大的注意力。”
Now, when they go to sleep, inattention takes charge        而当他们睡觉后,漫不经心就接管了,
because the attention is so artificial during the day.        因为白天的注意力是人为造作的。
I don't know if you're...        我不知道你们是不是……
And so sleep becomes a period of inattention.        这样,睡眠就成了漫不经心的阶段。
Do you accept all this?        你们接受所有这些吗?
Q: It seems believable.        问:看起来是可信的。
Q: In the waking state also...        问:在清醒的状态也……
K: Waking state also is inattention, but I am just passing that over.        克:清醒状态也是漫不经心的,而我只不过跳过了这点。
Q: I couldn't say one way or other when I'm asleep...        问:我没办法说我睡着的时候,是不是漫不经心的……
K: So the question, sir, is        克:那么,先生,问题就成了
to expose the censor completely - you follow? -        将审查者完全暴露出来——你理解吗?——
the censor that's hidden,        隐藏的审查者,
the censor that is the past.        就是过去的那个审查者。
I don't know if you...        我不知道你是不是……
Q: Will that affect the sleeping state?        问:那会影响睡眠状态吗?
K: You will see. Go into it, sir, we'll find out.        克:你会知道的。深入进去,先生,我们会发现的。
Don't ask me questions because you and I are exploring.        不要问我问题,因为你在和我一起探索。
So what is the function of sleep?        那么,睡眠的功能是什么?
I don't know if you...        我不知道你们是不是……
Is it a period of inattention        它是一个注意力涣散的时段吗
- if I may use that word        ——如果我可以用那个词的话,
without spoiling your sleep - [laughs]        但愿没有毁了你的睡眠——【笑】
or is it a period which is really attention?        或者,睡眠实际上是一个全神贯注的时段?
I don't know if you are...        我不知道你们是不是……
Q: If there's a censor... Q: ...then it's inattention.        问:如果存在一个审查者……问:……那么就是漫不经心。
Q: Are you saying that attention must be        问:你是说注意力必须
as deeply rooted as the censor in order to function?        像审查者一样深深扎根以便起作用?
K: No, in order to - not 'in order,' that implies a motive -        克:不,以便——不是“以便”,那意味着有个动机——
to live without any form of control, without any resistance,        而若要没有任何形式的控制、没有任何抗拒地生活,
which means without violence,        也就是没有任何暴力,
the censor must come to an end.        审查者就必须终止。
And we are asking the censor,        而我们在问,
so deeply hidden as he is,        隐藏得如此之深的审查者,
how does it happen to expose the whole of that?        怎么才能完全暴露出来?
What do you say? I don't know.        你怎么认为?我不知道。
Q: You have to definitely extend the bounds of your awareness.        问:你肯定需要扩展觉察的范围。
K: No, wait. No, look what you're...        克:不,等一下。不是的,你看你在……
Q: Because right now I'm only aware at any one time        问:因为现在我一时间只能觉察到
with such a small portion of...        这么一小部分……
K: Therefore, how does it happen to extend this attention,        克:所以,怎么去扩大这个注意力,
not only horizontally but vertically?        不仅从水平方向上,而且也从垂直方向上扩展?
Q: True. I implied that.        问:对。我说的就是这个。
K: Yes, vertically as well as horizontally.        克:是的,垂直方向和水平方向。
Q: What's the difference between vertical and horizontal?        问:垂直和水平有什么区别?
K: You know, going down... [laughs]        克: 你知道,走向深处……【笑】
Q: Not only the scope of what you see...        问:不仅你看到的范围……
K: I mean, after all, all science is horizontal knowledge.        克:我的意思是,毕竟所有的科学是水平的知识。
Right?        对吗?
But the vertical inquiry - not only up but down.        但垂直方向的探询——不光向上,也包括向下。
You understand my question? Yes? Yes, sir?        你明白我的问题吗?啊?明白了,先生?
One observes        一个人观察到
there is superficial consciousness with all its resistance        存在表面的意识,它所有的抗拒
and censorship in action,        和审查都在进行着,
and in that observation one learns a great deal superficially.        通过这种观察,他可以从表面上了解到很多东西。
But deep down,        但在更深的层次,
can that observation enter into the hidden recesses?        那种观察能够进入到隐藏的最深处吗?
Q: I personally feel that that is possible.        问: 我个人感觉那是可能的。
But one of my ways of doing that, strangely enough,        但我做这件事的方式之一,非常奇怪,
happens when I do dream and I have an awareness        就是我做梦的时侯,有一种觉知,
while I am dreaming, about the fact that I am dreaming,        我在做梦的同时清楚我是在做梦,
and when I am finished with my dream        而当我做完梦的时候,
I look at it, like a puzzle,        我再去看它,就像个迷一样,
and I put the whole thing together,        而当我通盘考虑整件事情时,
and very often I find some secret key to myself that is troubling me,        经常会发现某些困扰我的隐蔽的关键因素,
that comes out in the dream,        都从梦中显示了出来,
and it's over, finished then - I have discovered something.        这时它们就结束了——我发现了某些东西。
K: Yes, so you're saying, aren't you, if I may interpret what...        克:是的,所以你说,不是吗,如果我可以解释……
if I understand rightly:        如果我理解正确的话:
dreams help one to pull out the censor,        梦可以帮人揪出那个审查者,
to expose the censor.        暴露出那个审查者。
Right? Q: Yes.        对吗?问:对。
K: Why do you dream at all?        克:那你到底为什么做梦呢?
Q: Perhaps because I am not living in my everyday life as I...        问:可能因为我的日常生活没有按照我……
K: Therefore, as you're not living everyday life - not you personally -        克:所以,因为你没有在日常生活中——不是单指你个人——
I'm not talking personally        我不是从个人角度来说的
- as one doesn't live with attention during the daytime,        ——因为一个人在白天没有全神贯注地生活,
night, asleep,        到了晚上,睡着了,
in sleep dreams become a necessity.        睡眠中就必然会有梦。
Right? I question the... I say: why should I dream at all?        对吧?我质疑这……我说:我到底为什么要做梦?
Not: I must dream in order to expose my...        而不是:我必须做梦以便暴露我的……
You follow? Q: Yes.        你明白吗?问:明白。
K: And finding a key to understanding through dreams,        克:而通过梦发现帮助理解的钥匙,
and therefore keeping the mind - see the importance -        从而让头脑保持——看看这里的重要性——
keeping the brain cells and the mind tremendously active all the time,        让脑细胞和头脑一直充满巨大的活力,
during the daytime, night - you follow? -        昼夜不停——你明白吗?——
the whole machinery operating all the time.        整个机器一直在运转。
So one is asking whether dreams are at all necessary        所以我在问梦究竟是不是必需的,
and is there a way - I don't mean a method -        并且有没有一种途径——我不是指方法——
how does it happen to expose the hidden?        怎样才能暴露隐藏的东西?
We have ruled out analysis        我们已经排除了分析
- I'm sorry if there are any analysts here, sorry, forgive me -        ——如果这儿有分析家,我很抱歉,请原谅——
we ruled out the analysts, analysis,        我们排除了分析家、分析,
because we went into that so we don't have to go into it -        因为我们已经探讨过那些了,所以我们现在不用再说了——
we said analysis implies time, the analyser, the analysed -        ——我们说过分析意味着时间,分析者、被分析之物——
one fragment assuming the authority,        一个碎片装作权威、
the analyser, and so on - so that's out.        分析者,等等——所以那些都被排除了。
That's out - it has no meaning to me, personally.        那些都出局了——对我本人来说,它们毫无意义。
Then how is all this to be exposed?        那么,所有这些要怎么暴露出来呢?
K: I don't know if you're interested in this.        克:我不知道你们对这个是不是感兴趣。
Personally I am tremendously because        我本人非常感兴趣,因为
if the censor is in operation        如果审查者
at the deeper layers of one's consciousness,        在一个人意识的深层运作着,
and I'm only...        而我只是……
and the mind is only polishing up on the surface, there's no meaning.        而头脑仅仅在做表面文章,那就毫无意义。
It has a superficial meaning but it is totally irrelevant.        它有表面的意义,但那完全不重要。
So how does it happen?        那要怎样才能做到呢?
The deep layers,        那些更深的层次,
all their contents are exposed        它们所有的内容都暴露出来,
without analysis,        不用分析,
without searching.        也不用搜寻。
Searching implies a seeker        搜寻意味着有一个追寻者
- see all the difficulties in it -        ——看看其中所有的困难——
who, when he's seeking must recognize.        当他追寻的时候,他必须去识别。
Right? And therefore recognition means        对吗?因而识别意味着
he's observing through the past        他在借助“过去”进行观察,
and therefore saying, 'This is right,' or, 'this is good,        进而说:“这是正确的”或“这很好,
I'll keep this, I won't...’ I don't know if you're following all this.        我要保留这个,我不会…….”我不知道你们有没有理解这些。
How do you answer this?        你怎么回答这个问题呢?
No?        没有答案吗?
Q: When one observes, it doesn't seem that there is the censor there.        问:当我观察的时候,好像审查者并不在那儿。
When one is observing there isn't the person watching.        当我在观察的时候,并不存在某个人在观看。
K: No, you've not understood, madame, our question.        克:不,女士,你没有理解我们的问题。
In the cellar, a great many things are hidden,        在地窖中,隐藏着很多东西,
and I've superficially polished the top floor.        而我表面上擦亮了上层的地板。
In the cellar there are all these things        在地窖中,有着所有这些东西
- how do I get at that,        ——我怎么着手处理那些,
to expose, to clean up the whole house?        怎么暴露、清洁整个房子呢?
Q: Doesn't the observing do this?        问:难道观察没有这么做吗?
K: You're saying, does the act of observation        克:你是说,观察的行动本身
in itself reveals all this? Q: Yes.        是不是就揭示了所有这些?问:是的。
K: Now, is this from your actual experience or are you just guessing?        克:那么,这是来自你实际的经历呢,还是你只是在猜想?
Please be careful.        请小心一点。
Q: Just now, just doing it now. K: No, do...        问:刚刚,现在正在做。克:不,做……
Because, you see, we can invent a lot of theories,        因为,你看,我们能发明很多理论、
suppositions, guesses, and that's no good.        假定、猜想,而那都没什么好处。
You are saying, are you, that the observer,        你在说,不是吗,观察者
being the observed and therefore no censor,        是被观察之物,所以没有审查者,
when there is        只要有
- no, such observation is the factor of revealing        ——不,这种观察是揭示
the whole content of the cellar        整个地窖内容的因素
- is that what you're saying?        ——这就是你要说的吗?
Q: I am asking.        问:我在问。
Q: But that seems to be the wrong question        问:但那好像是个错误的问题,
because the fact is that we don't observe.        因为事实是我们没有观察。
Q: No, like I am observing right now.        问:不是,就像我现在就在观察。
I don't know if I'm exposing the whole cellar        我不知道是不是暴露了整个地窖,
but all I can tell is when things come up I can see them happen,        但我完全可以断定的是,当事情发生时我能看到它们发生,
I can see resistances happen.        我能看到抗拒的产生。
K: You understand, sir, the meaning of this question?        克:先生,你理解这个问题的涵义吗?
Q: Yes.        问:是的。
K: Which is - I'm not doubting you -        克:问题是——我不是在怀疑你——
which is, if there is no analysis,        问题是这样,如果没有分析,
or rather, when we understand the futility of it        或者说,当我们懂得了它的徒劳,
or see the truth of it,        或者我们看清了它的真相,
and therefore the time element has gone out of it,        因而时间因素消失了,
in the sense taking time between        这里指的是在顶层和底层地板之间
the top floor and the bottom floor        花费的时间
- you follow? - there's no time at all.        ——你理解吗?——根本没有时间。
Because when we understand the process of analysis        因为当我们理解了分析的过程,
you also understand the process of time, therefore you eliminate time.        你也就理解了时间的过程,所以你就消除了时间。
I don't know if you do.        我不知道你是不是这样。
Therefore we're asking:        所以我们要问:
the observation must be free from time.        观察必须从时间中摆脱出来。
Right?        对吗?
It isn't that I'm awake during the day,        不是我白天清醒,
partially awake during the day,        白天的时候部分清醒,
and sleep reveals through dreams the contents of the unconscious.        然后睡眠通过梦境揭示出潜意识的内容。
Therefore both are necessary - you follow?        所以两个都需要,缺一不可——你明白吗?
All that involves time.        那一切都引入了时间。
I have no time. To me time is a horror!        我没有时间。对我来说时间极其讨厌!
Logically, because that implies,        因为按照逻辑,那意味着,
time implies an interval between this and that.        时间意味着在这和那之间的间隔。
In that interval a great many other incidents, and stresses,        在那个间隔中有许多其他的事故、压力、
and strains, and events happen,        紧张和事件发生,
which change the course.        它们改变了进程。
Q: It also implies the search, searching.        问:它也意味着寻找、搜寻。
K: Change the course.        克:改变了过程。
So time is really a most distracting affair.        所以时间真正是最分心的事情。
So when one realises that,        那么当你认识到这点,
the realisation of that fact        认识到那个事实,
that time is a distortion, a diversion,        即时间是一种扭曲、是注意力的涣散,
then where are you?        然后,你会怎样?
Then what is observation without time?        那么,什么是没有时间的观察?
I wonder if you're getting all this!        我想知道你们有没有理解这些!
Q: If you are fully attentive is there a cellar?        问:如果你全神贯注,还会有地窖吗?
K: That's the point, sir.        克:那正是问题的关键,先生。
Therefore, what does this full attention mean?        所以,这种全然的关注意味着什么?
Q: Those moments when I'm not expecting anything        问:在我不期望任何东西的那些时刻,
then I am fully attentive.        我就是全然关注的。
K: No, I don't want moments, I want...[laughs]        克:不,我不想要一些时刻我想要……【笑】
I'm not interested in occasionally having food.        我对偶尔有饭吃不感兴趣。
One's life is much too short        人的生命太短暂了
- I want to enjoy the mountains and the trees, the loveliness of human -        ——我要享受山峰和树林,欣赏人身上的美好之处——
you know, I want to enjoy and as long as this isn't clear, all this,        你们知道,我要享受一切,但是,只要这些还不清楚,
there's no joy in life.        生活中就没有喜悦。
And joy is always now, not tomorrow or yesterday.        喜悦永远是现在,不是昨天或明天。
So time is a factor        所以时间是一个
which is most destructive.        最具破坏力的因素。
And so, is there observation without time?        那么,存在没有时间的观察吗?
See what is implied in all this.        看看这一切都意味着什么。
Time, observation without time, observation without the censor,        时间,没有时间的观察,没有审查者的观察,
observation without resistance,        没有抗拒、
without control,        没有控制、
without a motive,        没有动机、
without an achievement. I don't know if...        没有成就的观察。我不知道是否……
What does that observation mean?        那种观察意味着什么?
Is it possible?        它可能吗?
Or we are merely pursuing a fancy, a dream,        或者我们只是在追寻一个幻想、一个梦想,
a lovely thing to be like that but it is just vain, it has no meaning.        一件看似相近的美丽事物,但实际上徒劳无功、毫无意义。
You see, they say train.        你看,他们说训练。
Train yourself, practise,        训练你自己,练习,
watch how you move your toe,        观察你怎样移动你的脚趾、
your finger, your mind, your thought - you follow? -        你的手指、你的意识、你的思维——你明白吗?——
watch, watch, watch, take time, take years!        观看,观看,观看,花费时间,花费数年!
At the end of it, what? What have you got at the end of it?        末了,怎么样?最后你得到了什么?
Not to have reactions when you see Marilyn Monroe?        当你看到玛丽莲•梦露的时候,不要有反应?
You follow, sir? That's what they're after        你明白吗,先生?那就是他们追求的
- which is so idiotic - I don't want to go into all that.        ——如此愚蠢——我不想深入探讨那些。
No, I don't know, you may laugh, but you see, sir,        不,我不知道,你也许会笑,但是你看,先生,
the monks throughout the world have trained themselves to this.        全世界的僧侣都朝这个目标训练他们自己。
They never see the beauty of the earth, the beauty of the tree,        他们从来没看到大地的美、树木的美,
the beauty of a woman or a man - it's just the book        一个女人或男人的美——而只知道
and their idea of Jesus, or salvation and truth,        关于耶稣、救赎和真理的书本和观念,
it's just - you follow? -        那只是——你明白吗?——
a battle going on everlastingly inwardly,        内心一场永无休止的战争,
never a moment of beauty, tremendous enjoyment of life.        没有任何一刻享有生命之美、生命的巨大喜悦。
So, if I'm serious I must find this - you follow? -        所以,如果我认真,我就必须发现这些——你明白吗?——
it isn't just a dream;        它不只是个梦;
either it is so or it is not so.        要么是这么回事,要么不是。
Which means the mind must everlastingly dwell in conflict        那意味着头脑必定永远处于冲突之中
- that's its habitation.        ——那是它的居所。
If that is a reality then it's all right, we accept it.        如果那是事实,那么,好,我们接受它。
That means violence is absolutely part of life, part of man,        那就意味着暴力必定是生活的一部分、人的一部分,
only tame it, control it, shape it, be violent in certain directions,        只能驯服它、控制它、塑造它,选择在某些特定的方向上
be peaceful - I say that's impossible to live that way.        是暴力还是和平——我说以那种方式生活是不可能的。
So, in inquiring, not theoretically but actually        所以,在探询中,不是理论上而是真正去探询,
- experiment means to put it to the test,        ——实验的意思是进行检验,
to test it        去检验它,
as you go along -        当你进行下去——
is such awareness        这样的觉知,
in which there is a total absence of the censor        其中完全没有审查者
with all its implications        及其所隐含的一切
- how does it happen?        ——它是怎么发生的?
Not tomorrow, it must happen now.        不是明天,它必须现在就发生。
If it happens tomorrow it has no meaning,        如果它明天发生,就没有什么意义,
because when it happens tomorrow        因为如果它明天发生,
I've already built dozens of resistances,        我就已经建立了很多的抗拒,
I've already distorted.        我已经扭曲了。
I've taken a detour to come to tomorrow; the detour leads me off.        我走了一条弯路到明天;弯路使我迷失了。
So at the end of this,        所以,到了最后,
is the mind aware of all this?        头脑觉察到这一切了吗?
Aware in the sense, aware of the truth of all this?        觉察的意思是指,认识到这一切的真相了吗?
Not as an idea        不是作为一个观念
- the truth of naming, not naming,        ——关于命名或不命名的真相,
the description is not the described,        描述不是被描述之物,
the desire to seek and the implications of it,        追寻的愿望以及它的含义,
control - you know, see the truth of it -        控制——你知道,看到其中的真相——
the truth, not the idea of the truth.        真相,不是真相的概念。
Is that what we are doing now?        那就是我们正在做的事情吗?
Which brings us to another issue, which is: what is love then?        这把我们带到了另外一个问题,就是:那么,什么是爱?
Is love a matter of time, culture,        爱是一个时间或文化问题吗,
a thing of pleasure        是一件快乐
and therefore dependency?        进而依赖的事情吗?
What do you say, sir?        你怎么认为,先生?
Or is awareness love?        或者觉察是不是爱?
Is attention, the sense of total        关注,是不是完整无缺的爱的感觉?
- to use the word which is so hackneyed, so spoilt - love?        ——“爱”这个词已经被彻底糟蹋、彻底毁掉了——
When there is love do you control?        有爱的时候你还会控制吗?
Oh, I mustn't go into all this.        噢,我不能深入讲这个。
Yes, sir, you think it out.        是的,先生,你自己去考虑清楚。
Watch it and you'll see the most extraordinary things happen.        观察它,你就会看到有最非凡的事情发生。
Q: Well, in love, I should think that        问: 哦,我会认为在爱中
there must be awareness.        必然存在觉察。
K: No, sir, not 'I should think.' [Laughs] What is love?        克: 不,先生,不是“我会认为。”【笑】什么是爱?
Q: Well, I meant to go on, if I might. K: Sorry.        问:哦,我想继续说下去,如果可以的话。克:抱歉。
Q: I wanted to suggest that awareness couldn't be love        问:我想说的是,觉察不可能是爱,
because one could be aware of torture        因为一个人可能觉察到折磨,
and one wouldn't love it.        而他是不会爱它的。
K: Sir, is love a thing of thought?        克:先生,爱是思想的事情吗?
Q: I should think not.        问:我会认为不是。
K: No, no - not 'should think not' - I don't know.        克:不,不——不是“会认为不是”——我不知道。
Q: I'll rephrase that now. [Laughter]        问:那我现在换个词。【笑声】
K: Then what is pleasure?        克:那么什么是快乐?
What is pleasure and love?        什么是快乐和爱?
These are dangerous questions - you follow, sir?        这些是危险的问题——你明白吗,先生?
No, no, don't...        不,不,不要……
What relationship is sex to love?        性和爱是什么关系?
If pleasure is not love - be careful, I'm not saying it is or it is not,        如果快乐不是爱——请注意,我没有说它是或不是,
we're inquiring -        我们在探询——
then what place has enjoyment?        那么喜悦有什么位置?
I don't know if you've gone into all this.        我不知道你有没有探究过这些。
Q: It seems to me it would depend on how you use your pleasure,        问:在我看来,那取决于你怎么用你的快乐,
how you use your sex.        你怎么用你的性。
K: Ah! No, no. Who is using it? For God's sake don't...        克:啊!不,不。谁在用它?看在老天的份上不要……
Use - what do you mean use?        使用——你说的使用是什么意思?
Q: I might rephrase it. In other words,        问:我可以换个说法。换句话说,
if sex is just lust or something like that...        如果性仅仅是性欲或类似的东西……
K: Sir, wouldn't you approach the problem,        克:先生,你难道不要弄清这个问题吗,
approach it...        弄清它……
by negation come upon the positive?        通过否定而使正确的浮现?
Which is,        那就是,
what is joy and pleasure?        什么是喜悦和快乐?
What is enjoyment? Enjoyment, sir.        什么是喜悦?喜悦,先生。
Enjoyment, doesn't it mean no memory of having enjoyed?        喜悦,难道它不意味着没有对过去享受的记忆?
Right, sir? Come on, sirs.        对吗,先生?一起来,先生们。
Q: I think it's the feeling you get        问:我认为它是你有的感受,
when you have complete communication...        当你有彻底的交流时……
K: No, sir. No, don't...[laughs]        克:不,先生。不,不要……【笑】
If you remember your enjoyment        如果你记得你的享受,
and are enjoying that remembrance,        并且享受那个记忆,
it is pleasure        它就是快乐,
and therefore it is not enjoyment.        所以就不是喜悦。
So is love pleasure?        那么,爱是快乐吗?
For God's sake, sir,        看在上帝的份上,先生,
this is such a tremendously serious thing we're playing with.        我们面对的是一件极其严肃的事情。
Q: Pleasure is a dead thing.        问:快乐是个死的东西。
By definition, pleasure is a remembrance.        按照定义,快乐是一个记忆。
K: Obviously.        克:显然如此。
Q: Then love can't be that because love is not...        问:那么爱就不会是那个,因为爱不是……
K: So what relationship - follow it, sir, careful -        克:那么什么关系——请跟上,先生,仔细点——
what relationship with sex, enjoyment, joy,        性、享受、喜悦、
pleasure,        快乐、
remembrance - you follow?        和记忆,是什么关系——你跟上了吗?
Q: It would seem to me that pleasure excludes love        问:在我看来快乐排除了爱,
because it excludes relationship,        因为它排除了相互关系,
but love can include sex, it can include...        但爱能包含性,它能包含……
K: Oh, I don't know anything about all this, sir.        克:噢,关于这些我什么都不知道,先生。
Look at the complexity of it, sir.        看看它的复杂性,先生。
First see how complex this question is.        先看这个问题有多么复杂。
I mean, throughout the ages,        我是说,世世代代以来,
man, in seeking God, whatever it is,        寻求上帝或者无论什么的人,
says no sex - you follow? -        都说不要性——你明白吗?——
to serve God you must be celibate.        要服务上帝你就必须单身。
You follow?        你跟上了吗?
Q: I see that. It doesn't seem right.        问:我知道这个。那看起来不对。
K: Don't say it doesn't seem right or wrong, go into it.        克:不要说看起来对或错,深入进去。
Because they said desire is wrong,        因为他们说欲望是错误的,
therefore kill out desire.        所以就扼杀欲望。
And they can't kill out desire, therefore they concern themselves        而他们扼杀不了欲望,所以他们就让自己投身于
with the desire for Jesus, for saviour - you follow what I mean? -        对耶稣、救世主的渴望——你理解我的意思吗?——
or social reform, or whatever it is,        或者社会改革,或者无论什么,
missionary work and helping the heathens, and all that.        传教的工作和帮助野蛮人,诸如此类。
Until the mind understands this whole business        直到头脑识破了
of the observer, and all that,        观察者的整个把戏,和那一切,
and also the sense of joy,        也懂得了喜悦感,
which has nothing to do with entertainment, being entertained,        与消遣、娱乐
or getting joy of reading a poem,        或读诗得到的享受
and pleasure, sex,        和快乐、性,
tenderness,        温柔、
kindliness, gentle - you follow? - the whole of that.        友好、文雅等所有那些都无关——你跟上了吗?——
Q: Sir? I don't exactly understand how enjoyment has nothing to do        问:先生?我不太理解为什么喜悦与
with reading a poem and getting joy from reading a poem or...        读诗和从读诗得到的享受或者……无关。
K: Look, sir, to derive enjoyment through something        克:你看,先生,通过什么得到享受
is to depend on something.        就是去依赖某个东西。
Q: But you can enjoy something.        问:但你能享受那个东西。
K: Ah! I enjoy the sunset because I'm joyous [laughs]        克:啊!我享受日落,因为我内心喜悦【笑】
- which is different - Sorry, I'm...        ——那是不同的——对不起,我……
Q: Yes, I see.        问:噢,我明白了。
K: If I have a problem eating my heart out,        克:如果我有个问题让我伤心欲绝,
how can I look at those mountains?        我怎么能观赏那些山峰呢?
I'm sorry, you all ought to be sitting here and I there.        抱歉,应该你们坐这儿,我坐那儿。
You see, what we are talking is so contradictory to everything.        你看,我们所说的跟一切是如此矛盾。
I don't know...        我不知道……
I mean, the priest, the Catholic priest        我是说,牧师,天主教的牧师
is revolting against the Church,        在反抗教会,
after going through tortures to say,        历经了折磨之后说:
'Now I won't anymore' - it has no meaning.        “现在我会不再那样了”——那没什么意义。
So, sir, this is it.        所以,先生,就是这样。
I don't know how much you have communicated with each other.        我不知道你们彼此交流了多少。
Is it time... Q: Nearly half past five.        时间是不是……问:快五点半了。
K: An hour and a half - that's enough.        克:一个半小时了——够了。
Q: If I understand it correctly, you're not asking        问:如果我理解正确的话,你并没有问
what should be the relationship between sex and love        性和爱之间的关系应该是什么,
but what is it in fact, and I don't see        而是问事实上它到底是什么,我看不出
how that could possibly have a simple answer.        那个问题怎么可能有一个简单的答案。
It is what is. I can't see how we can say it is this or is that.        事实上如何就如何。我不明白我们怎么能说它是这样或那样。
K: No, sir. We can't put these into categories        克:是的,先生。我们不能把这些简单归类,
but what we can do is...        但我们能做的是……
I mean, as human beings have to relate all this,        我的意思是,因为人类必须了解这一切,
the truth of all this,        这一切的真相,
or the beauty of all this,        或者这一切的美,
and so one has to inquire endlessly. You follow what I mean?        所以,人必须不断地探询下去。你理解我的意思吗?
Q: One does have to start out with a particular strategy.        问:人确实需要从某个特别的策略出发。
K: No, no, no, no.        克:不,不,不,不。
The moment you observe when there is joy, you say,        当喜悦来临时,你一旦观察到,你会说,
'What strange phenomenon this is'        “这是多么奇怪的现象”
- suddenly to feel extraordinarily something        ——突然感到某种非凡的东西
and see the pleasure of it        并且看到其中的快乐
- you follow? - how pleasure comes out of it.        ——你明白吗?——快乐是怎样从中产生的。
Which is thought cultivating that incident        就是思想把那个事件
as pleasure and pursuing that.        培养成快乐,并去追逐它。
Oh no, this requires enormous attention - you follow? -        噢,不,这需要极大的注意力——你明白吗?——
watching like a hawk.        像鹰一样观察。
Q: Does this watching root out the deep censor        问:这种观察根除了深处的审查者吗?
or does it just free the mind from the effects of the censor?        还是它只不过把头脑从审查者的影响中解放了出来?
K: No, in this watching there is no censor at all.        克:不,在这种观察中根本没有审查者。
This watching implies the absence of the observer.        这种观察意味着审查者的缺席。
I think we'd better stop, don't you?        我想我们最好打住,好吗?
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