K: What we are trying, in all these 克：我们试着在所有这些
discussions and talks here, is to see 讨论和谈话中，去看一看
if we cannot radically bring about 我们是否无法从根本上带来
a transformation of the mind - 一次心智的转化 -
not accept things as they are, 不是接受事物现在的样子，
nor revolt against them. 也不是反抗它们。
Revolt doesn't answer a thing. 反抗不会解答任何事。
But to understand it, to go into it, to examine it, 而是去理解它，深入它，检验它，
give your heart and your mind, with everything 投入你的心灵和头脑，用你所拥有的
that you have, to find out a way of living differently. 一切，去发现一条不同的生活之道。
Q: The speaker is Krishnamurti, one of the more original 旁白：讲话者是克里希那穆提，我们时代更具创新精神
and challenging men of our time. 和挑战性的人之一。
During the past four decades, 在过去的四十年中，
his writings and talks in Europe, Asia and America have followed 他在欧洲、亚洲和美国的著作与谈话都沿着一条
a singular path, free from factionalism and dogma. 独特之路，摆脱了派系与教条。
This talk, Freedom from Fear, 这次谈话，“从恐惧中解脱”，
is the 3rd in a series of 8 programs 是八集系列节目中的第三个，
in which Krishnamurti speaks directly to those subjects 克里希那穆提在其中直陈了那些
which most profoundly affect the human condition: 极其深远地影响了人类处境的主题：
love and death, fear, 爱与死亡、恐惧、
and our discontent. He speaks of the real revolution, 和我们的不满足。他讲到了真正的革命，
a radical change in ourselves. 我们内在的根本转变。
K: Considering what the world is now, with all the misery, conflict, 克：想想世界现在的样子，有着所有的苦难、冲突、
destructive brutality, aggression, 破坏性的残暴、侵略、
tremendous advancement in technology, and so on, 技术上巨大的发展，等等，
it seems to me, though man has cultivated the external world, 对于我来，尽管人类已经培育了外部世界，
and has more or less mastered it, 并或多或少地掌握了它，
inwardly he is still as he was: 但他的内心却依然如故：
a great deal of animal in him, 他内在有着大量的动物性，
he is still brutal, violent, aggressive, 他仍然残酷、暴力、富有攻击性，
acquisitive, competitive, 贪得无厌、争强好胜，
and he has built a society along these lines. 并且他依此建造了一个社会。
And the more one observes 而一个人观察的越多
- and I think almost everyone, - 我认为几乎每个人，
unless totally blind, deaf and dumb, 除非全盲、全聋、全哑，
is aware of the extraordinary 都能意识到人类的那些
contradictions of human beings. 非同寻常的冲突。
And to understand this extraordinary 而要理解这异常
complex problem of existence 复杂的存在问题，
one must have tremendous passion, 人必须有巨大的激情，
which cannot possibly be supplied by the intellect 它不可能来自于智力
or by casual sentiment or emotionalism, 或偶尔的多愁善感或感情用事，
or the passion aroused by 或某种热情，这种热情源于
committing oneself to a particular course of action, 自己对某个特定行动过程的投入，
or belonging to a particular political or religious group. 或对某个特定政治或宗教团体的归属。
That does give a certain quality of intensity, 那确实能提供某种热烈的品质，
a certain elan, 某种热忱、
a certain drive, but through it all there is the demand 某种动力，但是通过这一切，就会有
for gratification, for pleasure. 对满足感、对快乐的需要。
And the whole structure of society, 而社会的整个结构，
with its morality, with its gods, 及其道德、上帝、
with its culture, with its entertainment, 文化、娱乐，
is based on pleasure. 都基于快乐。
So I hope that you will so listen to what is being said: 所以我希望你能这样去听正在讲述的内容：
not hear a lot of words, 不是去听很多词语、
to a lot of ideas, because ideas 很多想法，因为想法
and words are not the fact. 和词语不是事实。
Ideas and words never bring about 想法和词语从未带来
a radical revolution, a mutation in the mind. 彻底的革命、心智的突变。
So I am not dealing with ideas and opinions and judgment. 所以我不是在和想法、观点和判断打交道。
What we are concerned with is bringing about 我们所关心的是带来
a radical revolution in the mind. 心智的一次彻底革命。
And that revolution must take place 而那个革命必须
without effort, because all effort has behind it a motive. 无需任何努力地发生，因为所有的努力背后都有一个动机。
And a revolution with a motive is not a revolution at all. 而带着动机的革命根本不是革命。
A change 当有动机时，改变
becomes merely a modified continuity when there is a motive. 就仅仅变成了修饰一番后的一种延续。
But 但是
a mutation, a radical transformation of the mind 突变、心智的彻底转变
can only take place 只会发生在
when there is no motive, and when we begin 没有动机时，发生在我们开始
to understand the psychological structure, 了解心理结构时，
not only of society, which is part of us. 不仅仅是社会的结构，社会也是我们的一部分。
And to understand it there must be the act of listening - 而要理解它，必须有倾听的行动 -
not listening to the speaker but listening 不是倾听演讲者，而是去倾听
to what is actually taking place in ourselves. 我们内心到底发生着什么。
So it is 所以
a responsibility how you all listen, because we are taking 如何倾听是你们所有人的责任，因为我们是在一起
a journey together into the whole psychological structure of man. 踏上了一条探索人类整个心理结构的旅程。
Because in the understanding of that structure 因为在对那结构
and the meaning of it 及其含义的了解中，
we can then perhaps bring about a change in society. 也许我们就能在社会中带来一次转变。
And society, God knows, needs a total change, a total revolution. 而社会，上帝知道，需要一次完全的转变、一次彻底的革命。
So, as we were saying earlier, 所以，像我们之前所说的，
our whole concept, action and urges 我们的整个观念、行动和迫切愿望
are based on pleasure. 都基于快乐。
And until one understands 直到人理解了
the nature and the structure of pleasure 快乐的本质和结构为止，
there will always be fear, 不然总是会有恐惧，
fear not only in our relationships with each other 不仅是我们彼此关系中的恐惧，
but fear of all life, the totality of existence. 而且是所有生命的、存在这个整体的恐惧。
So without understanding pleasure 所以，不了解快乐
there can be no freedom from fear. 就无法从恐惧中解脱。
And we are not denying pleasure, we are not advocating 而我们不是在拒绝快乐，我们不是在提倡
puritanical way of life, a suppression of pleasure 清教徒般的生活方式，压抑快乐
or a substitution of pleasure, 或给快乐找个替代品，
or the denial of that thing that we call 也不是拒绝那我们称之为
great satisfaction - we are examining it. 伟大满足的东西- 我们是在审视它。
And in examination there must be 在审视中，必须
freedom from opinion, otherwise you can't examine. 摆脱所有观点，否则你就无法审视。
Pleasure is an extraordinary thing to understand, 快乐是要了解的一件非凡的事情，
needs a great deal of attention, 这需要大量的关注、
a swiftness of mind, a subtle perception. 机警的心智、敏锐的觉知。
So one has to understand it, 所以人必须去了解它，
and to understand it there must be 而要了解它，必须
neither withholding nor denying that quality, 既不压抑也不拒绝那种品质，
that principle of pleasure. 那快乐的原则。
And that's very difficult to do because we are so 这很难做到，因为我们是如此
heavily conditioned 严重地局限于
to accept and to function 带着快乐的动机、带着满足感
with the motive of pleasure, with gratification. 去接受和活动。
And therefore we are always limiting our total attention. 因此我们一直局限着我们完整的注意力。
We look at life in fragments, and as long as the particular 我们破碎地看待生命，而只要特定的
fragmentation exists, one cannot possibly see the total. 破碎存在，人就不可能看到整体。
If one says: 如果一个人说：
I must have a certain pleasure and I'm going 我必须拥有某种快乐，我将
to hold on to it at any price, 以任何代价抓牢它，
then we will not comprehend or see 这样我们就不可能理解或看到
the total pattern of pleasure. 快乐的整个模式。
And we are concerned with seeing 而我们所关心的是看到
the totality of pleasure, what is involved in it: 快乐的整体，它包含着什么：
the pain, the frustration, the agony, 烦恼、挫折、痛苦、
the remorse, 懊悔、
the ache of loneliness 孤独之痛，
when all pleasure is denied, 当所有的快乐都遭到拒绝时，
and naturally escape from all that 自然想通过各种方式
through various forms, 逃避那一切，
which again is the continuation of pleasure. 而这些不过又是快乐的继续。
And the mind that is caught, 心智陷入、
that is conditioned by this principle of pleasure 受制于这个快乐的原则，
cannot, obviously, see what is true, 显然就无法看到什么是真实的，
cannot think clearly, 无法清晰地思考，
and therefore it has no passion. 因此，它就没有激情。
It translates passion as sexual, or 它将激情诠释为性，或者
achieving some fragmentary activity 做出一些破碎的行为
and fulfilment in that fragment. 并在那破碎中获得满足。
So where there is no understanding of pleasure 所以如果不了解快乐，
there is only enthusiasm, sentimentality which evokes 就只有热情、感伤，而这会唤起
brutality and callousness, and all the rest of it. 残忍和冷酷，等等诸如此类。
So what is pleasure? 那么，什么是快乐？
Because without understanding pleasure 因为如果不了解快乐
there is no love. 就没有爱。
Love is not pleasure, 爱不是快乐，
love is not desire, 爱不是欲望，
love is not memory. 爱不是记忆。
And 并且
pleasure denies love. 快乐否定了爱。
Therefore it seems to me it is important 因此对我来说，
to understand this principle. 理解这个原则很重要。
Surely pleasure is desire, 很明显快乐是欲望，
desire 欲望
which comes into being very naturally 会很自然地产生，
when you see something 如果你看到某样
which gives you a stimulation, a sensation. 给了你刺激和感官感受的东西。
And from that sensation there is desire, 从那个感官感受中，欲望产生了，
and the continuation of that desire 而那个欲望的延续
is pleasure, 就是快乐，
and that pleasure is sustained by thought. 而那个快乐由思想维持着。
I see something, and 我看到某物，并且
in that contact with it there is a sensation. 在与之接触中产生了感官感受。
The sensation is the desire, sustained by thought, 感官感受即欲望，由思想维持着，
because thought is the response of memory. 因为思想是记忆的反应。
That memory is based on other experiences of pleasure and pain, 那个记忆基于其他快乐和痛苦的经验，
and thought gives to that desire the sustenance, 思想喂养了欲望、
the quality of pursuit, and fulfilment. 消遣和成就感这些品质。
One can see this in oneself very simply. 人可以很简单地从自己的内在看到这点。
If one observes, it's all there in front of you. 如果你去观察，它全都在你面前。
And the quality of observation cannot be taught by another. 而观察的品质是别人无法教你的。
And if you are taught how to observe, 如果有人教你怎样去观察，
you cease to observe - 你便停止了观察 -
then you have merely the technique of observation, 然后你有的仅仅是观察的技术，
which prevents you from actually seeing yourself. 而这阻止了你真实地看到自己。
For yourself is the whole of mankind, 因为你自己就是整个人类，
with all the aches and the miseries, 带着所有的痛苦与不幸，
with the solitude and loneliness, despair, 带着寂寞和孤独、绝望、
the utter loneliness of existence, meaninglessness of it all. 生存中完全的孤独，生存的毫无意义。
And when you do so observe, it unfolds endlessly, 而当你确实如此观察时，它将无限地展开，
which is life itself. 这就是生命本身。
Then you are not dependent on anybody, 然后你便不再依赖任何人，
on any psychologist, 任何心理学家，
on any theologian, or any priest, or any dogma. 任何神学家、任何牧师、或任何教条。
Then you are looking 这样你就是在看
at this movement of life which is yourself. 这生命的运动，也就是你自己。
But unfortunately we cannot look with clarity 但不幸的是我们无法清晰地看，
because we are driven by this principle of pleasure. 因为我们被这个快乐的原则所驱使。
So to understand pleasure, 所以，要理解快乐，
one has to understand the structure of thinking, 人必须去了解思考的结构，
because it's thought that gives continuity to pleasure. 因为是思想使得快乐继续。
I've had a pleasure, 我有过一次快乐，
an experience of pleasure yesterday, 昨天的一次快乐经历，
of different kinds, and thought thinks about that pleasure 不一样的快乐，思想便想着那个快乐
and demands its continuity. 并想要快乐继续。
So, memory of that pleasure of yesterday 所以，昨天那个快乐的记忆
is reacting, demanding that it be renewed through thought. 在反应，想要通过思想更新自己。
And 并且
thought is time. 思想即时间。
Thinking about the past pleasure, past gratification, 想着过去的快乐、过去的满足、
yesterday's delight and enjoyment. 昨天的高兴和喜悦。
And that thought demands its continuity now. 而那想法现在要求它继续。
And thought projects the tomorrow's pleasure. 思想投射出明天的快乐。
And thought creates the past, the present and the future, 思想创造了过去、现在和未来，
which is time. 也就是时间。
I have had that pleasure, 我有过那快乐，
I am going to have it, and I shall have it. 我要再拥有它，我想拥有它。
This time quality is created by thought, 这个时间的品质是由思想制造出来的，
bred, put together by thought. 由思想所滋生、拼凑。
And thought is time, and it is time that creates fear. 而思想即时间，正是时间制造了恐惧。
And 并且
without probing into this time, pleasure, thought, 如果不探究这个时间、快乐、思想，
we're always bound by time, 我们就会总是被时间所限，
and therefore time has never a stop. 因此时间永无停止。
It's only when there is an end to time 只有当时间有个终点时
there is something totally new. 才会有完全新鲜的东西。
Otherwise there's merely a continuity of what has been, 否则就只会继续过去的样子，
modified through the present and conditioned by the future. 通过现在修改一下，并被未来所局限。
For a human being to be free of fear, 要使人类从恐惧中解脱，
fear about the future, fear about... 恐惧未来、恐惧...
- there are a dozen fears that human beings have, - 人类有一打子的恐惧，
conscious or undiscovered fears: 有意识的或未被发现的恐惧：
fears of the neighbour, 害怕邻居，
fears of death, fear of being lonely, insecure, uncertain, 害怕死亡、害怕孤独、不安全、不确定，
fear of being confused, fear of being stupid 害怕困惑、害怕愚蠢
and trying to become very clever, you know, fear - 并试着变得聪明，你知道，恐惧 -
fear is always in relation to something, 恐惧总是与某物有关，
it doesn't exist by itself. 它本身不独立存在。
And to be totally free of fear - not partially, not a fragment 而完全从恐惧中解脱- 不是部分地、不是
of that totality of what is considered fear 被认为是恐惧的那整体中的一个碎片，
- to be totally, - 而是完全地，
that is psychologically to be completely free of fear, 从心理上完全地从恐惧中解脱，
one must understand thought, time and pleasure. 人必须理解思想、时间和快乐。
And this understanding is not intellectual or emotional. 而这个理解不是智力上的或情感上的。
Understanding can only come when there is total attention, 只有全神贯注时了解才会到来，
when you give your complete attention to pleasure, 当你给予快乐完整的注意力时，
how it comes into being, what is time. 它是怎么产生的，什么是时间。
Time which thought has created 思想制造的时间
- I was, I will be, I am. - 我过去是，我将成为，我现在如何。
I must change this into that. 我必须把这个变成那个。
This idea of gradual process, this idea of gradual 这个渐进过程的想法，这个
psychological evolution of man. 人类心理上逐渐进化的想法。
And that's very gratifying: 而那很容易让人满足：
we'll gradually, all of us, become extraordinarily kindly, 我们所有人，将渐渐地变得格外友善，
we shall gradually lose all our violence, aggression, 我们应渐渐地丢掉我们所有的暴力、侵略，
we'll all be brotherly at one time, much later. 在晚些时候，在某个时刻我们都将情同手足。
This gradual concept, which is generally called evolution, 这个渐进的概念，通常被称为进化，
psychologically, 心理上的进化，
seems to me so utterly false. 这对于我来说，是完全谬误的。
We're not offering an opinion; this is a fact. 我们不是在提供一个观点；这是一个事实。
Because when you give your attention 因为当你把你的注意力
to something completely 完全投入某物时，
there is no time at all. 就根本没有时间。
You don't say, 'I will do it tomorrow.' 你不会说，“我明天再做。”
In that state of attention 在那种关注的状态中
there is neither yesterday, today or tomorrow, 既没有昨天、今天，也没有明天，
therefore time has come to an end. 因此时间止息了。
But that ending of time cannot possibly be 但是当以快乐的原则为中心时，
when there is the centre as the principle of pleasure. 那时间的止息就是不可能的。
Pleasure 快乐
has in it 之内有
pain. 痛苦。
The two things cannot be separated. 两者不可分。
Pleasure is pain, 快乐即痛苦，
if you have observed. 如果你观察过的话。
So you cannot possibly, psychologically, avoid pain 所以，心理上，你不可能避免痛苦，
if you are pursuing, psychologically, pleasure. 如果你在追寻心理上的快乐的话。
We want the one and we don't want the other. 我们想要这个而不想要另一个。
We function emotionally, 我们感情用事地
of want and not want, 想要和不想要，
and when 而当
deep issues, fundamental problems are concerned, 涉及到深刻的事情、根本的问题时，
and to give your mind totally to it, 对它付出你的整个身心，
it's rather difficult when all your life has been dissipated, 而当你的整个生命被消耗时，这点就非常难以做到，
dissipated in fragmentary action. 因为生命消耗在了破碎的行为中。
And when we do act totally, 而当我们确实完整地行动时，
we only know it when there is a crisis. 我们只有在危机中才能了解它。
Then you wake up and give your whole attention. 那时你警醒并付出你全部的注意力。
And this is a crisis. 而这就是一个危机。
A talk of this kind is a crisis, is a challenge. 这种谈话就是一次危机，一次挑战。
You can't just push it aside. 你不能只是将其推在一边。
Therefore 因此
it may be 可能
rather difficult, 很难
maybe perhaps arduous, to follow all this. 明白这一切，或许很艰巨。
But it won't be arduous 但是如果你跟随自己心智的状态，
if you are following your own state of mind. 它就不会那么艰巨。
You know, it's like sitting on the bank of a river 你知道，这就像坐在一条河的岸边
and watching the river waters go by. 观看河水流过。
And when you so watch, 当你如此观看时，
there is neither the observer nor the observed, 既无观者，也无所观之物，
there is only a movement. 只有一种运动。
But to observe that there must be no fear, 但是要观察那些，必须没有恐惧，
no time, 没有时间，
no sense of pleasure and the demand for gratification. 没有快乐感和对满足感的要求。
Then in that state you can observe 然后在那个状态中你就能观察到
the whole movement of life, 生命的整体运动，
the movement of life which is agony, despair, 生命的运动即痛苦、绝望、
the ache of meaningless existence, 无意义之存在的痛苦，
the routine, the boredom, 例行公事、无聊、
the great fears, as of death 强烈的恐惧，比如关于死亡的
- which we'll talk about another day. - 我们将改日探讨死亡。
So you can watch all this and when you so observe, 于是你能观看这一切，而当你如此观察时，
the observer is that which he's observing, 观者即他正在观察的，
and then you can go beyond all this. 然后你就能超越这一切。
And the mutation can only take place in the mind 心智的突变只有
when time, pleasure and fear 当时间、快乐和恐惧
have come to an end, and therefore there is a certain dimension, 结束时才能发生，因此会有某种维度、
quality, which cannot be approached through thought. 品质，这些都不能通过思想去接近。
Q: This has been the 3rd of 8 programs 旁白：这是八集节目中的第三集，
presenting Krishnamurti, 展现了克里希那穆提所讲，
whose original and challenging approach 他以原创性与挑战性的方式
to the problems of our time 来面对我们时代中的问题，
places him outside any simple category, 这将他排除在了任何简单的分类之外，
such as philosopher or religious leader. 像哲学家或宗教领袖之类。
Filmed in the Ojai Valley in California, 本片录制于加州的欧亥山谷，
the series represents the first time 这一系列呈现的是
that Krishnamurti has permitted his talks to be filmed. 克里希那穆提首次允许录制的他的谈话。
The next program is called: 'Meditation'. 下一集节目叫做：“冥想”。 |
发表于 2010-9-2 15:53
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