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两个问题——你的教诲是针对哪些人的和全然面对经验的问题

Question: Some say that your teaching is only for the learned and the intellectual and not for the masses, who are doomed to constant struggle and suffering in daily life. Do you agree?
问:有些人说你的教诲只是针对有学问的人和知识分子的,而不是为普通民众准备的,普通人注定要不断地在日常生活中挣扎和受苦。你同意这个说法吗?
Krishnamurti: What do you say? Why should I agree or disagree? I have something to say, and I say it. I am afraid that it is not the learned who will understand. Perhaps this little story will make clear what I mean: Once a merchant, who had some time on his hands, went to an Indian sage and said, "I have an hour to spare; please tell me what truth is." The sage replied, "You have read and studied many books. The first thing that you must do is to suppress all that you have learned."
克:你有什么看法?为什么我需要同意或者不同意?我有些话要说,然后我说出来。恐怕并不是有学问的人能理解。也许这个小故事能说明我的意思:从前有个商人,他手头有些时间,就来到一个印度智者面前说:“我有一个小时的空闲时间;请告诉我真理是什么。”智者回答道:“你读过也研究过很多书籍。你要做的第一件事就是抑制住你所学到的一切。”
What I am saying is not only applicable to the leisured class, to the people who are supposed to be intelligent, well-educated - and I am purposely using the word "supposed" - but also to the so-called masses. Who are keeping the masses in daily toil? The intelligent, those who are supposedly learned; isn't that so? But if they were really intelligent they would find a way to free the masses from daily toil. What I am saying is applicable not only to the learned, but to all human beings.
我说的话,不仅仅适用于有闲阶层,或者被认为是聪明的、受过良好教育的那些人——我故意用了“被认为”这个词——而且适用于所谓的普通民众。是谁让劳苦大众日日辛劳?是那些聪明人,那些被认为学识渊博的人,不是这样吗?但是如果他们真的聪明智慧,他们会找到一条把民众从每日的艰辛中解脱出来的途径。我所说的,不仅仅适用于受过良好教育的人,而且适用于整个人类。
You have leisure to listen to me. Now you may say, "Well, I have understood a little, and therefore I am going to use that little understanding to change the world." But you will never change or alter the world that way. You may listen for a while and you may think that you have understood something, and say to yourself, "I am going to use this knowledge to reform the world." Such reform would be merely patchwork. But if you really understood what I am saying, you would create disturbance in the world - that emotional and mental disquiet from which there comes about the betterment of conditions. That is, if you understand you will try to create a state of discontent about you, and that you can do only if you change yourself; you cannot do this if you think that what I say is applicable to the learned only rather than to yourself. The man in the street is you. So the question is: Do you understand what I am saying?
你有空闲来听我讲话。那么你也许会说:“好的,我理解了一点,于是我就用那一点理解来改变这个世界。”但是那样的话你永远无法改变或者改造这个世界。你也许听了一段时间,然后以为自己理解了某些东西,于是对自己说:“我要使用这些知识来改革世界。”这样的改革只不过是缝缝补补。但是如果你真的理解了我所说的话,你就会撼扰这个世界——这种感情上和心理上的不安会带来境遇的好转。也就是说,如果你理解了,你就会在你周围创造出一种不满的状态,而只有你改变了自己,你才能做到这点;如果你认为我说的话只适用于受过教育的人,而不适用于你自己,那么你就无法做到这一点。你就是普通人。所以问题是:你理解我说的话了吗?
If you are intensely caught up in conflict, you want to find out the cause of that conflict. Now if you are fully aware of that conflict, you will find that your mind is trying to escape, trying to avoid facing that conflict completely. It is not a question of whether or not you understand me, but whether you as an individual are completely aware, alive to confront life wholly. What prevents you from meeting life wholly? That is the point. What prevents you from meeting life wholly is the continual action of memory, of a standard from which arises fear.
如果你深深陷入冲突中,你想要找到那冲突的根源。现在如果你充分觉察到那冲突,你就会发现你的头脑在试图逃避,试图回避完全面对那冲突。这不是一个你是否理解我的问题,而是你是否一个全然觉察的个体,在活生生地完整地面对生活。是什么在妨碍你完整地面对生活?这才是重点。妨碍你完整面对生活的正是记忆和准则的不停运作,恐惧从中产生。

Question: You often talk of the necessity of understanding our experiences. Will you please explain what you mean by understanding an experience in the right way?
问:你常常谈到理解我们的经验的必要性。你能否解释一下以正确的方式理解经验是什么意思?
Krishnamurti: To understand an experience fully you must come to it freshly each time it confronts you. To understand experience you must have an open, simple clarity of mind and heart. But we do not approach the experiences of life with that attitude. Memory prevents us from approaching experience openly, nakedly. Isn't that so? Memory prevents us from meeting experience wholly, and therefore it prevents us from understanding experience completely.
克:若要充分理解经验,你就必须在每次经验来临时完全崭新地面对它。若要理解经验,你的头脑和心灵就必须开放、简单而清晰。但我们并不是以这种态度来面对经验。记忆妨碍我们开放地、坦然地面对经验。难道不是这样吗?记忆妨碍我们完整地面对经验,因而阻止了我们彻底地理解经验。
Now what causes memory? To me, memory is but the sign of incomplete understanding. When you meet an experience wholly, when you live fully, that experience or that incident does not leave the scar of memory. Only when you live partially, when you do not meet experience wholly, there is memory; only in incompleteness is there memory. Isn't that so? Take, for instance, your being consistent to a principle. Why are you consistent? You are consistent because you cannot meet life openly, freely; therefore you say, "I must have a principle that will guide me." Hence the constant struggle to be consistent, and with that memory as a background you meet every incident of life. Thus there is incompleteness in your understanding because you approach experience with a mind that is already burdened. Only when you meet all things, whatever they are, with an unburdened mind, only then will you have true understanding.
那么是什么导致了记忆?对我来说,记忆只不过是不完全理解的标志。当你全然面对一次经验,当你完满地生活,那经验或者那事件并不会留下记忆的疤痕。只有当你部份地生活着,当你没有完整地面对经验时,才会有记忆;只有在不完整中才会有记忆。难道不是这样吗?举例来说,保持一贯是你的一个原则。你为什么要保持一贯?因为你不能开放地、自由地面对生活,所以你要保持一贯;于是你说:“我必须有个指导我的原则。”因而就有了想要保持一贯的不停挣扎,而你带着记忆的背景来面对生活中的每个事件。这样你的理解就是不完整的,因为你用已然负荷沉重的头脑来面对经验。只有当你用毫无负担的头脑来面对一切,不管它们是什么,只有此时你才能获得真正的理解。
"But", you say, "what am I to do with all the memories that I have?" You cannot discard them. But what you can do is meet your next experience wholly; then you will see those past memories come into action, and then is the time to meet them and to dissolve them.
“但是,”你说,“我要拿我所有的记忆怎么办?”你无法抛弃它们。但是你能做的是完整地面对你的下一个经验;那么你就会看到过去的那些记忆开始运作了,而此时就是你面对它们并消除它们的时机。
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