标题: THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'THE NEW HUMAN BEING'/《转变的紧迫性》之“新人类” [打印本页] 作者: Sue 时间: 2010-6-13 18:58 标题: THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'THE NEW HUMAN BEING'/《转变的紧迫性》之“新人类”
THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'THE NEW HUMAN BEING'
《转变的紧迫性》之“新人类”
Questioner: I am a reformer, a social worker. Seeing the extraordinary injustice there is in the world my whole life has been dedicated to reform. I used to be a Communist but I can't go along with Communism any more, it has ended in tyranny. Nevertheless, I am still dedicated to reforming society so that man can live in dignity, beauty and freedom, and realize the potential which nature seems to have given him, and which he himself seems always to have stolen from his fellow man. In America there is a certain kind of freedom, and yet standardization and propaganda are very strong there - all the mass media exert a tremendous pressure on the mind. It seems that the power of television, this mechanical thing that man has invented, has developed its own personality, its own will, its own momentum; and though probably nobody - perhaps not even any one group - is deliberately using it to influence society, its trend shapes the very souls of our children. And this is the same in varying degrees in all democracies. In China there seems to be no hope at all for the dignity or freedom of man, while in India the government is weak, corrupt and inefficient. It seems to me that all the social injustice in the world absolutely must be changed. I want passionately to do something about it, yet I don't know where to begin to tackle it.
Krishnamurti: Reform needs further reform, and this is an endless process. So let us look at it differently. Let us put aside the whole thought of reform; let us wipe it out of our blood. Let us completely forget this idea of wanting to reform the world. Then let us see actually what is happening, right throughout the world. Political parties always have a limited programme which, even if fulfilled, invariably brings about mischief, which then has to be corrected once again. We are always talking about political action as being a most important action, but political action is not the way. Let us put it out of our minds. All social and economic reforms come under this category. Then there is the religious formula of action based on belief, idealism, dogmatism, conformity to some so-called divine recipe. In this is involved authority and acceptance, obedience and the utter denial of freedom. Though religions talk of peace on earth they contribute to the disorder because they are a factor of division. Also the churches have always taken some political stand in times of crisis, so they are really political bodies, and we have seen that all political action is divisive. The churches have never really denied war: on the contrary they have waged war. So when one puts aside the religious recipes, as one puts aside the political formulas - what is left, and what is one to do? Naturally civic order must be maintained: you have to have water in the taps. If you destroy civic order you have to start again from the beginning. So, what is one to do?
Questioner: That is what I am actually asking you.
Krishnamurti: Be concerned with radical change, with total revolution. The only revolution is the revolution between man and man, between human beings. That is our only concern. In this revolution there are no blueprints, no ideologies, no conceptual utopias. We must take the fact of the actual relationship between men and change that radically. That is the real thing. And this revolution must be immediate, it must not take time. It is not achieved through evolution, which is time.
Questioner: What do you mean? All historical changes have taken place in time; none of them has been immediate. You are proposing something quite inconceivable.
Krishnamurti: If you take time to change, do you suppose that life is in suspension during the time it takes to change? It isn't in suspension. Everything you are trying to change is being modified and perpetuated by the environment, by life itself. So there is no end to it. It is like trying to clean the water in a tank which is constantly being refilled with dirty water. So time is out.
Now, what is to bring about this change? It cannot be will, or determination, or choice, or desire, because all these are part of the entity that has to be changed. So we must ask what actually is possible, without the action of will and assertiveness which is always the action of conflict.
Questioner: Is there any action which is not the action of will and assertiveness?
发问者：存在着不属于意志和决断的行为吗？
Krishnamurti: Instead of asking this question let us go much deeper. Let us see that actually it is only the action of will and assertiveness that needs to be changed at all, because the only mischief in relationship is conflict, between individuals or within individuals, and conflict is will and assertiveness. Living without such action does not mean that we live like vegetables. Conflict is our main concern. All the social maladies you mentioned are the projection of this conflict in the heart of each human being. The only possible change is a radical transformation of yourself in all your relationships, not in some vague future, but now.
Questioner: But how can I completely eradicate this conflict in myself, this contradiction, this resistance, this conditioning? I understand what you mean intellectually, but I can only change when I feel it passionately, and I don't feel it passionately. It is merely an idea to me; I don't see it with my heart. If I try to act on this intellectual understanding I am in conflict with another, deeper, part of myself.
Krishnamurti: If you really see this contradiction passionately, then that very perception is the revolution. If you see in yourself this division between the mind and the heart, actually see it, not conceive of it theoretically, but see it, then the problem comes to an end. A man who is passionate about the world and the necessity for change, must be free from political activity, religious conformity and tradition - which means, free from the weight of time, free from the burden of the past, free from all the action of will: this is the new human being. This only is the social, psychological, and even the political revolution.
克：如果你真的强烈地看到了这冲突，那么这觉察本身就是革命。如果你看到了自己内在头脑和心灵之间的这种分裂，真切地看到这点，不是理论上的设想，而是的确看到了这点，那么这个问题就结束了。一个对世界及改变的迫切性满怀热情的人，必须从政治活动，宗教遵从和传统中解脱出来——这就意味着，从时间的重负下解脱出来，从过去的重负、从意志力的所有行为中解脱出来：这就是新人类。这是唯一的社会、心理乃至政治革命。作者: Sue 时间: 2010-6-24 13:08
仔细读了你修改的部分，其中的大部分都很到位，大可照你的版本修改，只是还有几点需要再跟你探讨一下。
standardization and propaganda，这两个词应该不是修饰关系。
mind一般译为头脑或心智，thought译为思想。
fellow man在韦氏词典上的解释是a kindred human being，应该还是同伴、伙伴的意思，从另一个角度说，我们说从同伴那里窃取，从对手那里夺取，而不是窃取。
realize，是实现还是意识到的意思，我再读读看。因为如果人能自己实现天赋的潜能，就不必去别人那里偷窃。
非常感谢，这样的交流真的不多，你肯花时间精力来跟我讲这些，实在难能可贵。作者: Sue 时间: 2010-6-24 18:34
不丹的回复：
standardization and propaganda，光看这两个词显示不是修饰关系。可是我们要注意到，克的文字除了二个日记是他本人写的，最后的日记是对着录音机口授的，其它都是对话的。对话的英文和书面的英文显然是有区别的。这就是为什么当我们在翻译克的文字是非常吃力的原因，因为他的口语停顿的地方非常多，有时就是几个单词。现在看到的英文都是别人整理，基本照口语过来的。这段的文字不是克说的，是提问者说的，不过按照中文的习惯，如果翻译标准化，显然过于生硬。这里的意思其实就是格式化的宣传。你如果翻译成格式化和宣传，中文阅读还是不易将两个看成是并列的东西。反而感觉很突兀。我想提问者表达的就是千篇一率的宣传口径。所以翻译时是要注意到的。必要的改动都是必要的。
哦，似乎还有一个mind的问题。mind可以解释思想，而且是带有倾向的思想。
that which is responsible for one's thoughts and feelings 这是英文解释
21世纪英汉词曲上解释mind为思想，思想倾向。当然也可以解释为精神。作者: Sue 时间: 2010-6-24 18:39
有一点你也注意到了，这段话不是克说的。
再说standardization and propaganda，这里的标准化是指社会对人们标准化的塑造模式，不是指宣传。
再说realize,这个词最常用的第一个词义是实现，其次才是意识到，作为口语的用法，应该是更常用的那个意思。
而mind, 在这里也可以译为思想，因为说话的不是克。而克常常将mind与heart一起来用，对应的正是头脑和心灵。'that which is responsible for one's thoughts and feelings ', 对思想和感觉负责的，正是头脑。另外克在用mind这个词时，常常会用brain来做同义解释，这也是为什么会把mind译成头脑的原因。
至于fellow man，暂且保留意见吧。
我们当然无法站在克的高度，但是在翻译过程中，常感到词意达不到克的原意。我们常常是将自己的理解以为是克的意思，而自己的理解有时还是来于词典上对词义的理解，还常出错。尤其在克的笔记前面部分，正值他意识转换时期，文字非常难以表达，这种进入到空性的状态，实非文字能予以胜任。怪不得古人在禅授上要不立文字。作者: Sue 时间: 2010-6-24 22:05
我的回复：
没错，再精准的译文也难以百分百传达原文的意思，每个人都有自己的局限，译文也就难免有失偏颇，我们只能尽力而为。而且克在不同的讲话里，尤其是在不同时期的文字里，同一个词表达的意思也许相去甚远，mind就是典型的一例，克多数用这个词指的是被局限的头脑、心智，但是在他生命最后的那段时期，mind就变成了universal mind的意思，是个代表终极的名词。在演讲和著作中，克是在通过语言传达某种非语言所能表达的东西，语言本身就有局限，我们又不在聆听和交流的现场，即使在，也很难说能在多大程度上准确理解克的意思。所以才说，读克的时候，即使只有一点可能，也要尽量去读原文，或者起码在读译文的时候参照原文。作者: Sue 时间: 2010-6-24 22:17
THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'THE NEW HUMAN BEING'
《转变的紧迫性》之“新人类”
Questioner: I am a reformer, a social worker. Seeing the extraordinary injustice there is in the world my whole life has been dedicated to reform. I used to be a Communist but I can't go along with Communism any more, it has ended in tyranny. Nevertheless, I am still dedicated to reforming society so that man can live in dignity, beauty and freedom, and realize the potential which nature seems to have given him, and which he himself seems always to have stolen from his fellow man. In America there is a certain kind of freedom, and yet standardization and propaganda are very strong there - all the mass media exert a tremendous pressure on the mind. It seems that the power of television, this mechanical thing that man has invented, has developed its own personality, its own will, its own momentum; and though probably nobody - perhaps not even any one group - is deliberately using it to influence society, its trend shapes the very souls of our children. And this is the same in varying degrees in all democracies. In China there seems to be no hope at all for the dignity or freedom of man, while in India the government is weak, corrupt and inefficient. It seems to me that all the social injustice in the world absolutely must be changed. I want passionately to do something about it, yet I don't know where to begin to tackle it.
Krishnamurti: Reform needs further reform, and this is an endless process. So let us look at it differently. Let us put aside the whole thought of reform; let us wipe it out of our blood. Let us completely forget this idea of wanting to reform the world. Then let us see actually what is happening, right throughout the world. Political parties always have a limited programme which, even if fulfilled, invariably brings about mischief, which then has to be corrected once again. We are always talking about political action as being a most important action, but political action is not the way. Let us put it out of our minds. All social and economic reforms come under this category. Then there is the religious formula of action based on belief, idealism, dogmatism, conformity to some so-called divine recipe. In this is involved authority and acceptance, obedience and the utter denial of freedom. Though religions talk of peace on earth they contribute to the disorder because they are a factor of division. Also the churches have always taken some political stand in times of crisis, so they are really political bodies, and we have seen that all political action is divisive. The churches have never really denied war: on the contrary they have waged war. So when one puts aside the religious recipes, as one puts aside the political formulas - what is left, and what is one to do? Naturally civic order must be maintained: you have to have water in the taps. If you destroy civic order you have to start again from the beginning. So, what is one to do?
Questioner: That is what I am actually asking you.
Krishnamurti: Be concerned with radical change, with total revolution. The only revolution is the revolution between man and man, between human beings. That is our only concern. In this revolution there are no blueprints, no ideologies, no conceptual utopias. We must take the fact of the actual relationship between men and change that radically. That is the real thing. And this revolution must be immediate, it must not take time. It is not achieved through evolution, which is time.
Questioner: What do you mean? All historical changes have taken place in time; none of them has been immediate. You are proposing something quite inconceivable.
Krishnamurti: If you take time to change, do you suppose that life is in suspension during the time it takes to change? It isn't in suspension. Everything you are trying to change is being modified and perpetuated by the environment, by life itself. So there is no end to it. It is like trying to clean the water in a tank which is constantly being refilled with dirty water. So time is out.
Now, what is to bring about this change? It cannot be will, or determination, or choice, or desire, because all these are part of the entity that has to be changed. So we must ask what actually is possible, without the action of will and assertiveness which is always the action of conflict.
Questioner: Is there any action which is not the action of will and assertiveness?
发问者：有任何不是意志和自信的行动的吗？
Krishnamurti: Instead of asking this question let us go much deeper. Let us see that actually it is only the action of will and assertiveness that needs to be changed at all, because the only mischief in relationship is conflict, between individuals or within individuals, and conflict is will and assertiveness. Living without such action does not mean that we live like vegetables. Conflict is our main concern. All the social maladies you mentioned are the projection of this conflict in the heart of each human being. The only possible change is a radical transformation of yourself in all your relationships, not in some vague future, but now.
Questioner: But how can I completely eradicate this conflict in myself, this contradiction, this resistance, this conditioning? I understand what you mean intellectually, but I can only change when I feel it passionately, and I don't feel it passionately. It is merely an idea to me; I don't see it with my heart. If I try to act on this intellectual understanding I am in conflict with another, deeper, part of myself.
Krishnamurti: If you really see this contradiction passionately, then that very perception is the revolution. If you see in yourself this division between the mind and the heart, actually see it, not conceive of it theoretically, but see it, then the problem comes to an end. A man who is passionate about the world and the necessity for change, must be free from political activity, religious conformity and tradition - which means, free from the weight of time, free from the burden of the past, free from all the action of will: this is the new human being. This only is the social, psychological, and even the political revolution.
