标题: 克与博姆《人类的未来》对话二中的一段，讲到universal mind [打印本页] 作者: Sue 时间: 2009-10-22 15:21 标题: 克与博姆《人类的未来》对话二中的一段，讲到universal mind
JK: Man has always been in trouble, in turmoil, in fear. And facing all the confusion of the world, can there be a solution to all this?
克：人类一直处于麻烦、混乱和恐惧中。面对世界的困惑，所有这些是否能有一种解决之道？
DB: That comes back to the question I would like to repeat. It seems there are a few people who are talking about it, and think perhaps they know, or perhaps they meditate, and so on. But how is that going to affect this vast current of mankind?
博姆：这就回到了那个问题，我想重复一下。看起来有几个人在谈论此事（解决之道），认为他们可能知道，或者也许他们冥想，等等。但是，那将如何影响这人类的巨大洪流呢？
JK: Probably very little. But why will it affect this? It might, or it might not. But then one puts that question: what is the use of it?
克：可能很少。但是为什么要有影响呢？可能会影响，也可能不会。但是有人会问这个问题：那有什么用呢？
DB: Yes, that's the point. I think there is an instinctive feeling that makes one put the question.
博姆：是的，这正是问题所在。我想直觉会让人问这个问题。
JK: But I think that is the wrong question.
克：但是我觉得这是个错误的问题。
DB: You see, the first instinct is to say, 'What can we do to stop this tremendous catastrophe'?
博姆：你看，第一直觉会说，“我们能做些什么来阻止这巨大的灾难呢？”
JK: Yes. But if each one of us, whoever listens, sees the truth that thought, in its activity both externally and inwardly, has created a terrible mess, great suffering, then one must inevitably ask is there an ending to all this? If thought cannot end it, what will?
克：是的。但是，如果我们中的任何一个，不管是谁，听了、看到了这个真相，即，是思想自身的外在和内在行为制造了可怕的混乱，巨大的苦难，那么他就必然要问所有这些是不是可以终结？如果思想不能终结它，那什么才能？
DB: Yes.
博姆：是的。
JK: What is the new instrument that will put an end to all this misery? You see, there is a new instrument which is the mind, which is intelligence. But the difficulty is also that people won't listen to all this. Both the scientists and the ordinary laymen like us, have come to definite conclusions, and they won't listen.
克：终结所有这些苦难的新办法是什么？你看，是有个新办法，那就是理性(mind)，智慧。但是，困难也正在于所有这些人们都不愿意听。科学家和我们这些门外汉，都已经有了明确的结论，他们都不愿意听。
DB: Yes, well, that is what I had in mind when I said that a few people don't seem to have much effect.
博姆：是的，当我说看起来这几个人没什么大影响的时候，我脑子里就是这么想的。
JK: Of course. I think, after all, few people have changed the world, whether good or bad - but that is not the point. Hitler; and also the communists have changed it, but they have gone to the same pattern again. Physical revolution has never psychologically changed the human state.
克：当然。我想，毕竟，是少数人改变了这个世界，不管是好是坏-但是问题不在这里。希特勒，还有共产主义者都改变了世界，但是他们还是落入了同样的模式。外在的革命从未从心理上改变过人类的状态。
DB: Do you think it is possible that a certain number of brains coming in contact with mind in this way will be able to have an effect on mankind, which is beyond just the immediate, obvious effect of their communication?
博姆：你觉得，以这种方式和理性(mind)取得联系的一些头脑有没有可能影响人类，那影响不只是他们的交流所产生的立即而明显的影响？
JK: Yes, that's right. But how do you convey this subtle and very complex issue to a person who is steeped in tradition, who is conditioned, and won't even take time to listen, to consider?
克：是的，对。但是你要怎样把这种微妙的十分复杂的事情传达给一个深陷在传统里的受限的人，而他甚至都不愿花时间听一听想一想？
DB: Well, that is the question. You see, you could say that this conditioning cannot be absolute; cannot be an absolute block, or else there would be no way out at all. But the conditioning may be thought to have some sort of permeability.
博姆：这正是问题所在。你看，你可以说这种局限不是绝对的，不是一种绝对的障碍，不是完全没有出路。但是这种局限可能会被认为有某种渗透力。
JK: I mean, after all, the Pope won't listen to us, but the Pope has tremendous influence.
克：我的意思是，毕竟，教皇不愿听我们说，但是教皇有巨大的影响力。
DB: Is it possible that every person has something he can listen to, if it could be found?
博姆：是不是有可能，如果那东西能被发现，每个人都能听进去一些？
JK: If he has a little patience. Who will listen? The politicians won't listen. The idealists won't listen. The totalitarians won't listen. The deeply steeped religious people won't listen. So perhaps a so-called ignorant person, not highly educated or conditioned in his professional career, or by money, the poor man who says, 'I am suffering, please let's end that.'...
克：如果他有一点耐心的话。谁会听？政客不愿听。理想主义者不愿听。极权主义者不愿听。深陷于宗教中的人们不愿听。那么也许一个所谓的无知的人，没有受过高等教育没有被他的职业生涯或金钱局限的人，这个穷人说，“我在受苦，请让我们把它结束。”…
DB: But he doesn't listen either, you see. He wants to get a job.
博姆：但是你看，他也不愿听。他想先要个工作。
JK: Of course. He says, 'Feed me first', We have been through all this for the last sixty years. The poor man won't listen, the rich man won't listen, the learned won't listen, and the deeply dogmatic religious believers don't listen. So perhaps it is like a wave in the world; it might catch somebody. I think it is a wrong question to say, does it affect?
克：当然。他说，“先喂饱我”，所有这些，在我们过去60年里都经历过了。穷人不愿听，富人不愿听，博学的人不愿听，笃信宗教教条的人不愿听。所以，它也许像在世界上环流的波浪，可能会“逮住”某些人。我想，“会有影响吗”是个错误的问题。
DB: Yes, all right. We will say that that brings in time, and that is becoming. It brings in the psyche in the process of becoming again.
博姆：是的，好。我们说那引入了时间，那是变成。这就又引入了处于变成过程中的心智。
JK: Yes. But if you say... it must affect mankind...
克：是的。但是如果你说…它必然会影响人类…
DB: Are you proposing that it affects mankind through the mind directly, rather than through...
博姆：你是说它会直接通过理性(mind)影响人类吗，而不是通过…
JK: Yes. It may not show immediately in action.
克：是的。它可能不会立即显现在行动里。
DB: You said that the mind is universal, and is not located in our ordinary space, is not separate....
博姆：你说过，那理性(mind)是绝对的普遍的(universal)，并不位于我们通常的空间里，不是分离的…
JK: Yes, but there is a danger in saying this, that the mind is universal. That is what some people say of the mind, and it has become a tradition.
克：是的，但是，“那理性(mind)是绝对的普遍的(universal)”，这么说有点危险。有些人是这么说理性(mind)的，那变成了一种传统。
DB: One can turn it into an idea, of course.
博姆：当然一个人可以把它变成观念。
JK: That is just the danger of it; that is what I am saying.
克：这正是危险所在；这就是我说的意思。
DB: Yes. But really the question is, we have to come directly in contact with this to make it real, Right?
博姆：是的。但是真正的问题是，我们必须直接和它联系上让它变成事实，对不对？
JK: That's it. We can only come into contact with it when the self is not. To put it very simply, when the self is not, there is beauty, silence, space; then that intelligence, which is born of compassion, operates through the brain. It is very simple.
克：就是这样。当自我不在的时候，我们才能和它联系上。很简单地说，就是，当自我不在了，就有了美，寂静，空间；然后就有了智慧，那智慧诞生于慈悲，通过头脑来运作。这很简单。
