During my encounters with people many asked me towrite of my dialogues with Krishnamurti, even knowing I would be retrievingthem only from my memory since only a few had been recorded. So it was that Istarted to think of writing some of my memories down.
身边的很多人建议我把与克里希那穆提的对话记录下来；然而我能记住的只是不多的一部分。于是我开始考虑把这部分写下来。
Nevertheless, some other friends felt that it wasunnecessary to write my memories since Krishnamurti had done such a beautifulwork of exposition of life and truth for mankind with his own books, videos andaudiotapes.
不过，也有很多朋友认为写这些东西没有多大必要；因为克氏已经为人类贡献出了很多美妙的作品，通过他自己的书籍，影像和声音。
I hope that anyone who reads "My Dialogueswith Krishnamurti" feels the need to read Krishnamurti himself.
我只是希望任何读了“我与克里希那穆提的谈话”后会想要自己去读克氏。
I have almost stopped reading, and if I do it isonly to read "Krishnamurti Journals" or "Commentaries OnLiving" by Krishnamurti and "Collected Works of Krishnamurti"(17 volumes Kendall-Hunt) (1933-1967).
我已经基本上不阅读任何书籍，除了“克里希那穆提日志”（Krishnamurti Journals）或“生命的注释”，还有“克里希那穆提作品集”（17卷Kendall-Hunt）
Looking For The North
一路向北
Political contradiction in Argentina wasalways high. It came to one of its highest points, though, by the end of August1972.
阿根廷总是不断充满着政治斗争。在1972 的八月末，冲突达到了顶点。
During this time a group of leftist, guerrilla menand women were killed while in jail at Trelew-Argentina, and I was horrified tohear that one of them had been a friend of the family.
在这一段时间里一部分极左派的游击队男女被杀害在监狱里，我很震惊的发现其中一个是我们家的朋友。
I started to get phone calls prompting me to takesides in the armed struggle: "If you are not for the left you are for theright", a man's voice had told me on the phone before he hung-up while Iwas taking care of a recently born baby in Villada, Argentina,Aug. 23rd 1972.
我开始接到电话，要求在武装冲突中选择立场：“如果你不加入左派你就是右派”，这个男人大喊着挂掉电话的时候我还在忙于照顾刚刚在比利亚达出生的孩子。此时是1972年八月23日。
The following day I went to Buenos Aires to get a visa to the U.S.A. (1972).
第二天我到Buenos机场去办理到美国的签证。（1972年）
If man looses respect for life we are all at riskfrom each other. Man becomes his own executioner.
当人对生活失去敬意我们就会成为彼此的威胁。人变成他自己的刽子手。
Only after two years I got a temporary visa toenter the U.S.A.Every Argentinian was suspicious then.
不到两年我就获得准入美国的签证。那时候每个阿根廷人都是可疑的。
I stopped over in Puerto Rico.There was a man there I wanted to meet: Enrique Biascoechea.
我在波多黎各停了下来。那有一个我想见的人：Enrique Biascoechea.
I did meet him. He was dying. He had been a friendof Krishnamurti since age nine.
我和他见了面。他快要死了。他从九岁起就是克里希那穆提的朋友。
He wrote a letter to Krishnamurti telling him thatI had left behind my parents, two baby sons, possessions, friends, profession,comfort, and status in order to travel to meet with him. That was in June 1974.Enrique died in Nov 1974.
他写信给克里希那穆提，告诉他我离开了父母，两个年幼的孩子，事业，地位，财产，朋友，只为了见他。那时是1974年6月，Enrique 死于同年11月。
After reaching the U.S. I soon found myself working 16hours a day as a resident physician in Pennsylvania.I needed a dictionary to dictate my notes. Of the other eight hours of the dayI spent four in the basement to study medicine in English to revalidate mylicense. I slept three or four hours a day and ate only once a day, takingcoffee in the morning and again at lunchtime simply to keep myself awake.
到达美国之后，我开始在宾夕法尼亚作为常住医生，每天工作16个小时。我需要字典才能表达自己的意思。在剩余的八个小时里我用4个小时学习英文药物学以重审我的执照.每天只睡3到4个小时，吃一顿饭，早上和中午用咖啡来阻止瞌睡。
Sometimes I wondered how my body could bear somuch abuse!
有时候我都奇怪我的身体是如何负担这种过度劳累的。
I got letters from Argentina: "Misery. My familyand my friends kept disappearing".
我收到来自阿根廷的信：“不幸。我的家庭和朋友在不断消失”。
I had given up hope to meet Krishnamurti when Igot a letter from Mrs. Zimbalist, dated Jan. 5th 1975 in Ojai, California telling me I had a personalinterview with Krishnamurti on march 23rd at 4 P.M. at the Huntington Hotel inSan Francisco, California.
那时我已经放弃会见克的希望了，直到 1975年1月5日接到Zimbalist夫人的来信，得知3月 23日下午4点休斯顿饭店，我可以对克里希那穆提单独会面。
Mrs. Zimbalist volunteered her time forKrishnamurti as a devoted secretary. She is the widow of the late Sam Zimbalistwho had produced the reknowned film "Ben Hur".
Zimbalist夫人主动的承担起克里希那穆提秘书的责任。他是执导了有名的电影"BenHur" 的Sam Zimbalist的孀妻。
At four P.M. on March 23rd 1975 sharp I knocked atKrishnamurti's door. Mrs. Zimbalist did everything to make me feel comfortable.
1975 年3月23日下午四点，我来到了克里希那穆提的门前。Zimbalist夫人尽一切所能以让我觉得舒适。
Krishnamurti came after five minutes. I stood upfrom the armchair to shake his hand. He looked smaller than I expected him tobe. He wore an old blue jacket. He sat in front of me with nothing in betweenthe two chairs. Mrs. Zimbalist left silently.
克里希那穆提五分钟后走进来。我站起身来同他握手。他没有我想象中那么高大，穿着老式的蓝色夹克。他在我前面的椅子上坐下来，我们之间没有任何阻挡。Zimbalist夫人默默的离开了。
We sat there looking at each other. I will neverbe able to describe that moment when Krishnamurti was gazing at me.
我们坐在那里看着对方。我永远无法形容克里希那穆提凝视我的那一刻的感觉。
I felt at the same time all the love I had feltfor my parents, my sons, my girlfriends, my friends (dead or alive)...
我感觉到我体验过的所有的爱，对我的父母，子女，妻子和朋友，无论活着的或已经离去的，在那一刻…
There was long silence.
许久的沉默。
Krishnamurti said: Biascoechea says you are readyto work for the Foundation.
克里希那穆提说：Biascoechea 说你已经准备好为基金会工作了。
I said: I may not be wise or free enough for that.
我说：我可能还不够智慧或者自由。
Krishnamurti: You will.
克：你会的。
Ruben: What would the work imply?
Ruben：这个工作包括什么？
Krishnamurti: Publishing books, videos and tapes.
克：出版书籍，录像和磁带。
Ruben: That implies managing money.
Ruben：那意味着管理金钱。
Krishnamurti: Millions of dollars.
克：数百万美元。
Ruben: That horrifies me. I'm not ready for that.I thought I would have to travel with you, type your lectures from recorded tapes....things like that.
Ruben：这让我害怕。我还不适合于这些。我以为我会同你一起去往各地，从录音带里记下文字…这一类的事情。
Krishnamurti: (Laughing) You can do more than thatDr...
克：（笑）你可以做的更多…大夫
Ruben: My name is Ruben Ernesto Feldman-Gonzalez.
Ruben：我的名字叫Ruben Ernesto Feldman-Gonzalez
Krishnamurti: That's confusing, may I call you Dr.Gonzalez?
克：太长了，我可以叫您Gonzalez 医生么？
Ruben: Of course, but my real name is Anger.
Ruben：当然，但是我的真名是Anger。
Krishnamurti: (touching my left knee) Ah! I'm gladyou don't wear a mask like so many that come to me pretending to be saints.
克：（碰我的左膝）啊！我真高兴你没有像很多人来见我时那样带着圣人的面具。
Ruben: I'm far from that. I feel a completerepugnance for the so-called political situation of Argentina, my country of birth, andeven for the way my profession is practiced. I'm a pediatric surgeon. I hadstarted to study psychiatry (July 1974) in Pennsylvania to see why the world has goneso crazy. Nevertheless I'm not impressed, the approach to treatment inpsychiatry is conventional... standardized. I'll leave psychiatry too. I don'tknow what I will do.
Ruben：我远不是圣人。我对阿根廷，我的家乡里的所谓的政治局势非常厌恶。即使对我的专业也是如此。我是一个儿科医生。我在宾夕法尼亚学习精神病学，想搞清楚为什么世界变得如此疯狂。但它也没让我满意，对精神病学的治疗是惯例性的，已经标准化。我也会放弃精神病学。我不知道我会做什么。
Krishnamurti: Don't leave psychiatry. Change it.
克：不要放弃psychiatry（psychiatry 本意是心灵愈合）。改变它。
Ruben: I never thought you would give me concreteadvice like that. It sounds absurd though. Changing psychiatry sounds likechanging the color of the crickets of the world.
Ruben：我从未想过你会给我像这样的具体的建议。虽然听起来有点荒唐。改变精神病学听起来像是改变蟋蟀的颜色。
Krishnamurti: You have to change psychiatry.
克：你必须改变心灵。
Ruben: I wish I knew what you meant.
Ruben：我希望我了解了你的意思。
Krishnamurti: You have to meet Dr. David Bohm in London. Let's go theresoon.
克：你要去见见伦敦的David Bohm博士。我们很快就去。
Ruben: I wish I could, perhaps if I get a loan.
Ruben：我希望我能去，如果我能贷到一笔款。
Krishnamurti: No! Don't ask for a loan. You'llmeet him soon anyway.
克：不！不要去贷款。你很快就能见到他。
Ruben: I need to make changes. I have no peace.Friends have disappeared in Argentina.Everything seems so chaotic and corrupt....
Ruben：我需要做一些改变。在我心里没有安宁。在阿根廷朋友接连死去。所有事情仿佛都肮脏混乱…
Krishnamurti: (smiling) You need exercise(Krishnamurti touched my belly with the tip of his left index finger).
克：（微笑）你需要一些锻炼（克里希那穆提用左手的食指尖碰了碰我的腹部）
Ruben: I work 16 hours a day and then I have tosit to study for four hours a day before I go to sleep. All this to renew mymedical license in the USA.
Ruben：我每天工作16个小时并且不得不在入睡前学习4个小时。为了延长医疗执照。
Krishnamurti: That's an excuse. Take care ofyourself. You need exercise. You look like a bull.
克：那是借口。照顾好你自己。你需要锻炼。你看起来像一头牛。
Ruben: Sometimes I feel that I need to share my understandingwith people around the world. What do you say to that?
Ruben：有时候我感觉想要同全世界的人们分享我的体会。你对此怎么看？
Krishnamurti: You speak.
克：你讲。
A very long silence followed. I had expected himto tell me to "stay put" and spend the rest of my life in silentmeditation. With very few words he was the perfect mirror for my owncontradictions to emerge and be clearly seen.
接下来是很长一段沉静。我以为他会告诉我“如如不动”然后在冥想里度过剩余的一生。只用了寥寥数语他变成为了我的镜子，让我看清了内在的矛盾。
He insisted: The Foundation in Puerto Rico has no head. I hope you will take it (he grabbed my leftknee).
他坚持道：基金会在波多黎各没有首脑。我希望你能承担它。（他抓住了我的左膝）
Ruben: Krishnaji, when I was with Biascoecheaeverything seemed so easy. Now I see I don't have the peace of mind, the rightskills nor the freedom (the sons and two parents to feed) to dedicate myselfsensibly to such an important and difficult task. It is certainly no picnic.
Ruben：克里希那吉，当我和Biascoechea在一起时一切看起来很容易。现在我知道我没有内心的平静，恰当的技术或是自由（很多子女还有双亲需要抚养）来投身这样一个重要而艰巨的任务。这肯定不是一件轻松的事情。
Krishnamurti: I hope you take it.
克：我希望你承担它。
Another long silence followed.
接下来又是一次长久的静默。
Krishnamurti discussed several items regarding theFoundation's translations, people like Salvado Sendra, Vimala Thakar, personaland ideological struggles within the Foundations, etc.
克里希那穆提讨论了关于基金会的事情：资料翻译，人们像SalvadoSendra, Vimala Thakar, 基金会里个人的和观点的斗争，等等。
Ruben: I'm eager to meet Salvador and Vimala... but people from theFourth Path are trying to mix what you say with what others have said and arequite willing to control the Foundations.
Ruben：我很想见见Salvador和Vimala…但是从第四条道路（译注：组织名）来的人试图将你所说的和别人所说的混合在一起，并且很想控制基金会。
Krishnamurti: That has been going on all the timeand not only with them. The Fourth Path is a path of violence which reinforcesthe ego and the wish to control life and its course. Do not touch it. The firstinsight is to drop everything non-essential for the total liberation ofmankind.
克：这种事情一直在发生着，不仅仅在于他们。第四条道路是一条暴力之路，它强化了自我并且想要控制生活和它的方向。不要碰它。首先洞察到要放下对于人类的彻底解放不重要的一切事情。
Ruben: Now that you mention the non-essential....Why did you allow the biography of yours written by Lutyens to be published?It's gossipy and superficial, and it may not be right selling "At the Feetof the Master" ... with your name on it.
Ruben：您提到不重要的东西…您为什么允许Lutyens写的克氏传记出版呢？它不过是写肤浅的闲言碎语，而且《在主人的脚下》注上你的名字也是不对的。
Krishnamurti: Not my books.
克：不是我的书。
Ruben: And they are making a profit.
Ruben：他们在牟利。
Krishnamurti: It's not my business.
克：它与我无关。
Ruben: How would you recommend your books to beread, and in what order?
Ruben：你建议你的书应该怎样读，以什么顺序？
Krishnamurti: Do not read them like a novel. Readslowly as if your life was in every word and every sentence. Start with thelast one and then if there is an interest go backwards through the first one.
克：不要像读小说那样读他们。慢慢的读就像你的生活就在每个词语和每个句子中。从最后一本开始，如果有兴趣的话从后面一直读到第一本。
Ruben: Should we read all your books?
Ruben：我们应该读完你所有的书么？
Krishnamurti: If you take a train in San Francisco to go to Los Angeles... would you get off in SantaBarabara?
克：如果你坐火车从三藩市到拉斯维加斯，你会在圣巴巴拉下车吗？（译注：圣巴巴拉是加州的一个地方）
We both laughed. One had to laugh very often inthe company of Krishnamurti. Today the order of the books would be:
我们都笑了。一个人在克的四周总是免不了经常欢笑。今天阅读的顺序会是：
"Ending of Time"
"The Awakening of Intelligence"
"Commentaries on Living"
"Journal"
"Freedom from the Known", etc.
"Collected Works" (1933-67)
《时间的终结》
《智慧的觉醒》
《生命的注释》
《旅程》
《从已知中解脱》
《文集（1933-1967）》
I asked: Why don't you eat meat?
我问：为什么你不吃肉？
He answered: Pity.
他说：怜悯。
I expected a longer lecture but that was all hesaid. Again a long silence. The silence was alive, the silence of two alertfriends seeing together the same thing at the same time.
我以为会有长篇大论而他的回答只有两个字。
又一次长久的寂静。在这寂静里充满生气，在其中两个敏锐的朋友在同时看到了同一样东西。
He stood up and said. "Excuse me Dr.Gonzalez, I'll prepare some tea for you".
他站起来然后说：“打扰一下，Gonzalez医生，我为你准备了茶水。”
At the kitchen in the big suite he whisperedsomething with Mrs. Zimbalist who was sitting there.
在大套房的厨房里，他同坐在那儿的Zimbalist夫人小声说了些什么。
He came back with a cup of tea. He said: "Teaof roses for you".
他拿着一杯茶回来，他说：“给你准备的玫瑰茶。”
I sipped it, but I didn't like it. I left it onthe little table beside us.
我尝了一下，但是我不喜欢。我把它放在我们中间的小桌子上。
Ruben: Can we talk about meditation?
Ruben: 我们能谈谈冥想么？
Krishnamurti: Is there anything else?
克：还有别的可谈么？
Ruben: Well, the very word meditation is used bygurus of all kinds to make money, sell silly books, techniques, pillows,crystals, mantras, and incense.
Ruben：冥想这个词被各种上师用来赚钱，贩卖各种可笑的书，技巧，枕头，水晶，咒语，焚香等等。
Krishnamurti: I have been using the word for 50years. I can't change it now. People will have to see I use the word with adifferent meaning. I do not use the word meditation with its traditionalmeaning!
克：我用这个词已经有50年了。我现在不能改变它了。人们必须认识到我用这个词代表一个不同的意思。我并不是以冥想这个词传统的意思来运用它。
Ruben: What about using the expression"Unitary Perception" instead.
Runben：用“整体觉知”这个表达方式代替怎么样。
Krishnamurti: You use it.
克：你可以这么用。
(Krishnamurti said he would not use the wordmeditation anymore during his last talk in England in 1985, ten years later.)
（克里希纳穆提十年后在1985年英国最后的讲演中说他不会再用冥想这个词了。）
Krishnamurti: Why not live very simply? Call itmeditation or Unitary Perception. Self protection and self aggrandizementthrough money making and success have to end in order to live simply. To livesimply is to live intelligently, without an observer in observation. If youbelieve you have to go back to Argentinato be loyal to some concept of yours you are not simple. If you are angry youare not simple. If you are full of sorrow you can't love anyone. Can you bespontaneous and simply act with not too much planning?
克：为什么不让生活更简单？无论叫它冥想也好或者整体觉知也好。要生活得简单，通过金钱和成功的自我保护和自我扩张就必须停止。简单的生活就是智慧的生活，在观察中没有观察者。如果你觉得你必须回到阿根廷以实现某种定义出的忠诚，那么你就不是朴素的。如果你愤怒你就不朴素。如果你充满了悲伤你就无法爱任何人。可不可以让行为自发的产生而不带太多的计划？
Ruben: You are not saying I have to remain aloneand live in poverty and silence.
Ruben：你并不是说我只能独自一人，生活在贫穷和寂静里。
Krishnamurti: Would that be simple? Would you beescaping from life? The consummation of truth is not to be successful orwealthy... but do you want complete truth? Look for success or money and you'llfind frustration. Look for truth and you'll receive total peace of mind andjoy. Will you be one of the few? Or will you continue being one of the manyworshippers of money and success?
克：那样是简朴么？难道不是在逃避生活？真理的极致并不是成功和富有… 但是你想要完全的真理么？寻找成功和金钱你会受到挫败。寻找真理你会获得完全的平静和快乐。你想成为少数人的一分子么？或者你还继续像多数人那样做金钱和成功的崇拜者？
After a long silence, he said: "Dr. Gonzalez,your tea must be cold already, finish it!"
经过一段很长的寂静，他说：“Gonzalez医生，你的茶一定凉了，喝了它！”
I didn't have the courage to say no and I did finish it silently.
我不敢拒绝，安静的喝光了它。
He said: "Let's meet tomorrow at eight A.M.
他说：“我们明早8点再见面。”
Krishnamurti went with me to the door, opened itfor me and smiled lovingly saying: "Good bye".
克里希纳穆提送我到门口，打开门，深情微笑着说：“再见。”
I said: What noun should be applied to what youteach-- "message", "gospel",..., or what?
我说：你讲授的东西应该用什么名词表示 – “讯息”，“福音”… 还是什么？
Krishnamurti said: Call it "theteachings". Let's meet tomorrow at eight A.M., right here.
克里希纳穆提说：叫它“教育”(the teachings)。我们明天8点见面，就在这里。
I spend the rest of the afternoon by myself in myroom, which I had rented at the same hotel where Krishnamurti was staying. Ifelt like a Condor for the rest of the day. I met Krishnamurti by chance in thelobby that evening. I walked with him for awhile.
我租的房间和克所住的在同一间旅馆，那个下午的其余时间我独自一个人待在自己的房间里。一整天觉得觉得像鹰一样敏锐。晚上的时候我在大厅偶然遇到克，我们一起散步了一阵子。
I saw a couple of very beautiful girls.
我看见了两个很漂亮的女孩。
I said: "God, how beautiful they are".
我说：“上帝，她们真美。”
He said: "Only well fed".
克说：“只是营养充足罢了。”
I said: "Krishnaji, I felt like a Condor thewhole afternoon, full of peace and joy and love. I think it's because I spentsome time with you."
我说：“克里希纳吉，整个下午我感觉像一只鹰，充满了平静，喜悦和爱。我想这是因为我和你在一起的缘故。”
Krishnamurti said: "For how long do you wantto be infected?"
克说：“你还想被我感染多久呢？” |
发表于 2010-8-29 21:35
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