THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'FEAR'/《转变的紧迫性》之“恐惧”

THE URGENCY OF CHANGE - 'FEAR'

《转变的紧迫性》之“恐惧”

   Questioner: I used to take drugs but now I am free of them. Why am I so frightened of everything? I wake up in the mornings paralysed with fear. I can hardly move out of bed. I'm frightened of going outside, and I'm frightened of being inside. Suddenly as I drive along this fear comes upon me, and I spend a whole day sweating, nervous, apprehensive, and at the end of the day I'm completely exhausted. Sometimes, though very rarely, in the company of a few intimate friends or at the house of my parents, I lose this fear; I feel quiet, happy, completely relaxed. As I came along in my car today, I was frightened of coming to see you, but as I came up the drive and walked to the door I suddenly lost this fear, and now as I sit here in this nice quiet room I feel so happy that I wonder what I was ever frightened about. Now I have no fear. I can smile and truthfully say: I'm very glad to see you! But I can't stay here for ever, and I know that when I leave here the cloud of fear will engulf me again. That is what I'm faced with. I've been to ever so many psychiatrists and analysts, here and abroad, but they merely delve into my memories of childhood - and I'm fed up with it because the fear hasn't gone at all.

发问者：我曾经嗑药，但是现在我摆脱了它们。为什么我对所有事情都是那么恐惧？早上醒来的时候，我恐惧得动弹不得。我几乎下不了床。我害怕出去，也害怕待在屋里。在我开车的时候，这种恐惧会突然袭来，然后我一整天都冒汗，紧张，害怕，在一天结束的时候，我精疲力竭。有时候，尽管很少，在几个密友的陪伴下，或者在我父母的家里，我没有这种恐惧；我感觉安宁，快乐，完全放松。在我今天驾车开往这里的路上，我害怕来见你，但是当我来到这条大道走到门口的时候，我突然不恐惧了，当我现在坐在这个漂亮安静的屋子里的时候，我觉得太开心了，以致于我不知道我究竟怕什么。现在我没有恐惧。我能微笑，真心地说：见到你非常高兴！但是我不能永远都待在这儿，我知道当我离开的时候，恐惧的乌云会再次吞噬我。这就是我正面对的。我见过太多的精神科医生和分析师，这儿的和国外的，但是他们仅仅是一头扎入我童年的记忆——而我受够了这些，因为恐惧根本就没有消失。

   Krishnamurti: Let's forget childhood memories and all that nonsense, and come to the present. Here you are, and you say you are not frightened now; you're happy for the moment and can hardly imagine the fear you were in. Why have you no fear now? Is it the quiet, clear, well-proportioned room, furnished with good taste, and this sense of welcoming warmth which you feel? Is that why you are not frightened now?

克：让我们忘了儿时记忆和所有那些无稽之谈，来到现在吧。你在这儿，你说现在不害怕；这会儿你很开心，几乎想象不出你曾身处其中的恐惧。你现在为什么没有恐惧？是不是因为这间安静的，整洁的，比例匀称的，装饰得很有品位的屋子，以及你感受到的这种怡人的温暖感觉？是这些让你现在不害怕吗？

   Questioner: That's part of it. Also perhaps it is you. I heard you talk in Switzerland, and I've heard you here, and I feel a kind of deep friendship for you. But I don't want to depend on nice houses, welcoming atmospheres and good friends in order not to be afraid. When I go to my parents I have this same feeling of warmth. But it is deadly at home; all families are deadly with their little enclosed activities, their quarrels, and the vulgarity of all that loud talk about nothing, and their hypocrisy. I'm fed up with it all. And yet, when I go to them and there is this certain warmth, I do feel, for a while, free of this fear. The psychiatrists can't tell me what my fear is about. They call it a "floating fear". It's a black, bottomless, ghastly pit. I've spent a great deal of money and time on being analysed and it really hasn't helped at all. So what am I to do?

发问者：这是一部分原因吧。也可能是因为你。我听过你在瑞士的讲话，也听过你在这里的讲话，我感到对你有一种深深的友爱。但是我不想依靠漂亮的房子，怡人的气氛和好朋友才能不害怕。当我去我父母那儿时，我同样感觉到温暖。但是回家就很恐怖；所有家庭都很恐怖，因为它们琐碎而封闭的活动，它们的争吵，因为微不足道的事情而引发的所有那些粗俗的大声喧哗，以及它们的虚伪。我受够了这一切。但是，当我去见他们的时候，有这么一种温暖感，我确实能感觉到，有那么一会我从这恐惧中解脱了。精神科医生无法告诉我我因为什么而恐惧。他们管它叫做“浮动恐惧”。这是个黑黑的，无底的，可怕的陷阱。我花了大量的金钱和时间做分析，但是并没有任何帮助。那我该怎么办？

   Krishnamurti: Is it that being sensitive you need a certain shelter, a certain security, and not being able to find it, you are frightened of the ugly world? Are you sensitive?

克：是不是因为你太敏感所以需要某种庇护，某种安全感，但是遍寻不获，所以就对这个丑陋的世界满怀恐惧？你敏感吗？

   Questioner: Yes, I think so. Perhaps not in the way you mean, but I am sensitive. I don't like the noise, the bustle, the vulgarity of this modern existence and the way they throw sex at you everywhere you go today, and the whole business of fighting your way to some beastly little position. I am really frightened of all this - not that I can't fight and get a position for myself, but it makes me sick with fear.

发问者：是的，我想是的。也许不是你说的那个意思，但我是敏感的。我不喜欢噪音，喧闹，不喜欢这个现代世界的粗俗，现在不管你去哪儿到处都会碰到性，还有苦苦争斗只是为了得到某个极其卑微的职位，我不喜欢这整件事情。我真的害怕这一切——不是因为我自己不能奋斗无法为自己谋得一个职位，而是这让我恐惧而厌恶。

Krishnamurti: Most people who are sensitive need a quiet shelter and a warm friendly atmosphere. Either they create it for themselves or depend on others who can give it to them - the family, the wife, the husband, the friend. Have you got such a friend?

克：敏感的人大多都需要一个安静的庇护和一种温暖友好的气氛。不管他们是为自己创造这些出来，还是依靠别人给他们——家庭，妻子，丈夫，朋友。你有这样一个朋友吗？

   Questioner: No. I'm frightened of having such a friend. I'm frightened of being dependent on him.

发问者：没有。我害怕有这样一个朋友。我害怕依赖他。

   Krishnamurti: So there is this issue: being sensitive, demanding a certain shelter, and depending on others to give you that shelter. There is sensitivity, and dependence; the two often go together. And to depend on another is to fear losing him. So you depend more and more, and then the fear increases in proportion to your dependence. It is a vicious circle. Have you enquired why you depend? We depend on the postman, on physical comfort and so on; that's quite simple. We depend on people and things for our physical well-being and survival; it is quite natural and normal. We have to depend on what we may call the organizational side of society. But we also depend psychologically, and this dependence, though comforting, breeds fear. Why do we depend psychologically?

克：那么就有这个问题：敏感，需要某种庇护，依赖别人给你那种庇护。有敏感，有依赖；这两者通常是如影随形的。而依靠别人就害怕会失去他。所以你就越来越依赖，然后恐惧随着你的依赖而增强。这是个恶性循环。你是否探询过你为什么依赖？我们依赖邮差，依赖身体上的舒适，等等；这非常简单。我们因为身体上的安康和生存而依赖人们和东西；这很自然，很正常。我们还依赖社会上我们称为组织的那一面。但是我们在心理上也依赖，这种依赖，虽然令人很欣慰，但是滋生了恐惧。我们为什么在心理上会依赖？

   Questioner: You're talking to me about dependence now, but I came here to discuss fear.

发问者：你现在跟我讨论依赖，可我来这儿是为了探讨恐惧的。

   Krishnamurti: Let's examine them both because they are interrelated as we shall see. Do you mind if we discuss them both? We were talking about dependence. What is dependence? Why does one psychologically depend on another? Isn't dependence the denial of freedom? Take away the house, the husband, the children, the possessions - what is a man if all these are removed? In himself he is insufficient, empty, lost. So out of this emptiness, of which he is afraid, he depends on property, on people and beliefs. You may be so sure of all the things you depend on that you can't imagine ever losing them - the love of your family, and the comfort. Yet fear continues. So we must be clear that any form of psychological dependence must inevitably breed fear, though the things you depend on may seem almost indestructible. Fear arises out of this inner insufficiency, poverty and emptiness. So now, do you see, we have three issues - sensitivity, dependence and fear? The three are interrelated. Take sensitivity: the more sensitive you are (unless you understand how to remain sensitive without dependence, how to be vulnerable without agony), the more you depend. Then take dependence: the more you depend, the more there is disgust and the demand to be free. This demand for freedom encourages fear, for this demand is a reaction, not freedom from dependence.

克：让我们来一起检视，因为它们两个是互相关联的，我们将会看到这点。你介不介意我们把两个问题一同探讨？我们在讨论依赖。什么是依赖？一个人为什么在心理上会依赖另一个人？难道依赖不是否定了自由吗？把房子，丈夫，孩子，拥有的东西都拿走——如果这一切都拿走了，那一个人是什么？他自身无法自足，空虚，迷失。那么，他害怕这种空虚，因为这种空虚，他依赖财产，依赖人们和信仰。你也许对所有这些你依赖的东西太确信了，你从来无法想象失去它们——你家庭的爱，和舒适。但是，恐惧持续着。所以我们必须清楚任何形式的心理依赖必然会滋生恐惧，尽管你依赖的东西可能看起来几乎坚不可摧。恐惧来源于这种内在的不足，贫乏和空虚。那么现在，你是否看到，我们有三件事情——敏感，依赖和恐惧？这三者是互相关联的。拿敏感来说：你越敏感（除非你了解如何不依赖就能保持敏感，如何不痛苦就能保持敏感），你就越依赖。然后再说依赖：你越依赖，反感就越严重，就越想要自由。这种对自由的渴望会增强恐惧，因为这种渴望是一种反应，而不是从依赖中解脱。

   Questioner: Are you dependent on anything?

发问者：你依赖任何东西吗？

   Krishnamurti: Of course I'm dependent physically on food, clothes and shelter, but psychologically, inwardly, I'm not dependent on anything - not on gods, not on social morality, not on belief, not on people. But it is irrelevant whether or not I am dependent. So, to continue: fear is the awareness of our inner emptiness, loneliness and poverty, and of not being able to do anything about it. We are concerned only with this fear which breeds dependence, and which is again increased by dependence. If we understand fear we also understand dependence. So to understand fear there must be sensitivity to discover, to understand how it comes into being. If one is at all sensitive one becomes conscious of one's own extraordinary emptiness - a bottomless pit which cannot be filled by the vulgar entertainment of drugs nor by the entertainment of the churches, nor the amusements of society: nothing can ever fill it. Knowing this the fear increases. This drives you to depend, and this dependence makes you more and more insensitive. And knowing this is so, you are frightened of it. So our question now is: how is one to go beyond this emptiness, this loneliness - not how is one to be self-sufficient, not how is one to camouflage this emptiness permanently?

克：当然身体上我依赖食物，衣服和住所，但是心理上，内在地，我不依赖任何东西——不依赖神，不依赖社会道德，不依赖信仰，不依赖人们。但是我是不是依赖，这不重要。那我们继续：恐惧是知道我们内在的空虚，孤独和贫乏，对此我们无能为力。我们只关心滋生依赖的这种恐惧，这种恐惧又随着依赖增强。如果我们懂得了恐惧，我们就也能懂得依赖。而要懂得恐惧，就必须敏感地去发现，去了解它是怎么形成的。如果一个人真的敏感，他就能发觉自己那巨大的空虚——一个无底洞，无法用粗俗的药物消遣填满，也无法用教会的娱乐或者社会的消遣满足：没东西能填满它。知道这一点，恐惧就增强了。这驱使你去依赖，这种依赖让你越来越敏感。知道这些就是现实，你会害怕。所以现在我们的问题是：一个人要怎样超越这种空虚，这种孤独？——不是一个人要如何变得自满，不是一个人要如何永远地掩饰这种空虚。

   Questioner: Why do you say it is not a question of becoming self-sufficient?

发问者：你为什么说这不是一个如何变得自满的问题？

   Krishnamurti: Because if you are self-sufficient you are no longer sensitive; you become smug and callous, indifferent and enclosed. To be without dependence, to go beyond dependence, doesn't mean to become self-sufficient. Can the mind face and live with this emptiness, and not escape in any direction?

克：因为如果你自满就不会再敏感了；你变得沾沾自喜而麻木，冷漠而封闭。没有依赖，超越依赖，并不意味着变得自满。心智能不能面对并与这种空虚共处，而不向任何方向逃避？

   Questioner: It would drive me mad to think I had to live with it for ever.

发问者：想想我得永远与它共处，会让我发疯的。

   Krishnamurti: Any movement away from this emptiness is an escape. And this flight away from something, away from "what is," is fear. Fear is flight away from something. What is is not the fear; it is the flight which is the fear, and this will drive you mad, not the emptiness itself. So what is this emptiness, this loneliness? How does it come about? Surely it comes through comparison and measurement, doesn't it? I compare myself with the saint, the master, the great musician, the man who knows, the man who has arrived. In this comparison I find myself wanting and insufficient: I have no talent, I am inferior, I have not "realised; I am not, and that man is. So out of measurement and comparison comes the enormous cavity of emptiness and nothingness. And the flight from this cavity is fear. And the fear stops us from understanding this bottomless pit. It is a neurosis which feeds upon itself. And again, this measurement, this comparison, is the very essence of dependence. So we are back again at dependence, a vicious circle.

克：任何离开这种空虚的行为都是一种逃避。这种从某事中逃离，从“实际状况”中逃离的行为，是恐惧。恐惧是逃离某事。实际状况不是恐惧；逃离才是恐惧，这会让你发疯，而不是空虚本身。所以，这种空虚，这种孤独是什么？它是怎么产生的？显然，它来自比较和衡量，不是吗？我拿自己和圣人，和大师，和伟大的音乐家比较，和知道的人，和达成了的人比较。在这种比较中，我发现自己想要得到，我不满足：我没有天分，我差劲，我没有“实现”；我不是，而那个人是。那么从衡量和比较，就产生了空虚和一无是处的巨大空洞。从这空洞逃离，就是恐惧。而恐惧阻止了我们对这无底洞的了解。这是一种自给自足的神经官能症。而这种衡量，这种比较，再次成为依赖的核心。所以我们又回到了依赖，一个恶性循环。

   Questioner: We have come a long way in this discussion and things are clearer. There is dependence; is it possible not to depend? Yes, I think it is possible. Then we have the fear; is it possible not to run away from emptiness at all, which means, not to escape through fear? Yes, I think it is possible. That means we are left with the emptiness. Is it possible then to face this emptiness since we have stopped running away from it through fear? Yes, I think it is possible. Is it possible finally, not to measure, not to compare? For if we have come this far, and I think we have, only this emptiness remains, and one sees that this emptiness is the outcome of comparison. And one sees that dependence and fear are the outcome of this emptiness. So there is comparison, emptiness, fear, dependence. Can I really live a life without comparison, without measurement?

发问者：通过这次讨论我们已经走了很远，事情也清晰些了。有依赖的问题；可能不依赖吗？是的，我想是可能的。然后我们讨论了恐惧；到底有没有可能完全不从空虚中逃离，也就是，不通过恐惧来逃避？是的，我想是可能的。那就意味着我们就剩空虚了。那么是不是有可能面对这空虚？因为我们已经不再通过恐惧逃离这空虚了。是的，我想是可能的。那么最后，是不是有可能不衡量，不比较？因为如果我们走到这一步了，我想我们确实到了，那就只剩这空虚了，而且也看到了这空虚是比较的结果。也看到了依赖和恐惧是这空虚的结果。所以谈到的有比较，空虚，恐惧，和依赖。我能过一种没有比较，没有衡量的生活吗？

   Krishnamurti: Of course you have to measure to put a carpet on the floor!

克：当然你得衡量才能把地毯铺在地板上！

   Questioner: Yes. I mean can I live without psychological comparison?

发问者：是的。我是说我能在心理上不比较地生活吗？

   Krishnamurti: Do you know what it means to live without psychological comparison when all your life you have been conditioned to compare - at school, at games, at the university and in the office? Everything is comparison. To live without comparison! Do you know what it means? It means no dependence, no self-sufficiency, no seeking, no asking; therefore it means to love. Love has no comparison, and so love has no fear. Love is not aware of itself as love, for the word is not the thing.

克：当你的整个生命——在学校里，在游戏中，在大学里，在办公室里都被局限于比较，那你知道心理上不比较地生活是什么意思吗？每件事情都比较。不比较地生活！你知道那意味着什么吗？那意味着没有依赖，没有自满，没有追寻，没有要求；因而那就意味着爱。爱没有比较，所以爱没有恐惧。爱不知道自己是爱，因为词语并非所指之物。

Being nobody, going nowhere.