1ST PUBLIC TALK MADRAS 28TH DECEMBER 1985
1985年12月28日 马德拉斯 第一次公共讲话
I would like to know why you are all here. I really mean it. With what intention, with what purpose, with what kind of imaginary or superstitious concepts that one has? And perhaps, if I may be so bold as to suggest it, you might have come with those ideas, with those formulas. And I am afraid you will be disappointed because - I hope you can hear, all right? I hope you all can hear - one has talked all over the world for a long time, seventy years, that's a long time, and one has naturally built up all kinds of fanciful, superstitious imaginary reputations, and those reputations, those images that one has created are really meaningless because what we are talking about is totally different from a lecture. A lecture is meant to inform, to instruct, to guide and so on. This is not a lecture. Please we must be very clear on that point. This is not a lecture. There is no intention on the part of the speaker to guide you, to help you - forgive me if I use that word - or to inform you about something you would like to be talked about, theoretical, superstitious, imaginary, a fixation, as it were. But we are going to deliberate together. That word has a very deep meaning, deliberate, which means weigh together, take counsel together, nourish each other, not physically, I hope, but psychologically, intellectually and penetrate as deeply as possible into one's own consciousness, into its own function, its own way of thinking, living. This is not a theoretical meeting, talking about various things that should be, or that has not been, but together, you and the speaker are taking counsel together, weighing things together. Please, this is not just a lot of words. The speaker really means what he says, whether you like it or not. He says we are going to take counsel together, weigh things together, not I weigh and then tell you about it, but rather that together you and the speaker take counsel together, weigh together. This is not propaganda because we are together investigating, asking, questioning, doubting.
我想知道你们都为什么来这儿。我是认真的。一个人都有着什么意图，什么目的，什么假想的或者迷信的概念？或许，如果我可以冒昧指出的话，你们可能是带着那些观点，带着那些模式来的。那恐怕你要失望了，因为-我希望你们能听见，是不是？我希望你们都能听见-我已经在全世界演讲过很长时间了，七十年了，这是一段很长的时间，自然也因此建立了各种奇特的，迷信的假想出来的声望，而我拥有的那些声望，真的毫无意义，因为我们要探讨的内容，与讲座完全不同。讲座的意思是教导，指导，指引，等等。这不是一场讲座。请务必清楚这一点。这不是一场讲座。讲话者一方完全没有要指导你、帮助你的意思-请原谅我用这个词-也不想教导你任何事情，那些事情可能是你想探讨的，理论的，迷信的，或者假想的一种执着。而是，我们要一起商讨。这个词的含义很深，商讨，意味着我们一起考虑，一起协商，互相滋养，我希望，不是从身体上，而是从心理上，从智识上，尽可能地深入每个人自己的意识深处，深入它自己的运作过程，它自己的思维和生活方式。这不是一场理论上的聚会，谈论应当如何或者尚未如何的各种事情，而是一起，你们和讲话者一起探讨，一起考虑事情。请注意，这不只是一堆词句。讲话者对他说的话是认真的，不管你喜不喜欢。他说我们要一起探讨，一起考虑，不是我考虑好了然后告诉你，而是，你们和讲话者一起探讨，一起考虑。这不是什么宣传活动，因为我们是在一起查明，一起发问、探询和质疑。
The idea and the fact are two different things. The fact is one thing. The microphone is not an idea, it is a fact. So the fact is what we are going to discuss, not the idea of the fact. I hope all this is clear. All right? Sir, should I keep quiet as you are keeping quiet? This is a serious meeting, not just an exchange of words. Something wrong sir? So from the very beginning we must be very clear that this is not a lecture, we are not talking about theories, what has happened to human beings through the long two and a half million years of evolution, but what we are, what we have become, and what is our future - not of mankind, what is the future of all of us? Right? Let's be clear on that point. We are going to deliberate, that is take counsel together. Taking counsel together we nourish each other, both intellectually, non-verbally and psychologically. It is not something intellectual. It is not romantic, not superstitious, imaginary and so on. So we are together, you can't just sit there and say, yes, yes, or no, no. You are partaking, you are sharing, you are weighing, taking counsel together. Right? Is that understood between us?
概念和事实是两件不同的事情。事实是一件事儿。显微镜不是一个概念，是一个事实。所以我们要讨论的是事实，不是关于事实的概念。我希望这些是清楚的。好吗？先生，既然你们保持安静，那我是不是也应该保持安静？这是一场严肃的聚会，不仅仅是交换语言。有什么不对吗，先生？所以，从一开始我们就必须很清楚，这不是一场讲座，我们不是在谈论理论，不是人类在250万年的漫长进化中都发生了什么，我们讨论的是，我们现在如何，我们变成了什么样，我们的未来如何-不是人类的未来，而是我们所有人的未来是什么？对不对？我们得清楚这一点。我们要商讨这些，也就是一起考虑。一起商讨的话，我们就能互相滋养，不仅在智识层面，还在非语言层面和心理层面互相给对方营养。这不是智识层面的事情。不是浪漫的，迷信的，假想的，等等。所以我们是在一起的，你不能只是坐在那儿说，是的，是的，或者不是，不是。你是一起在参与，在分享，在考虑，在探讨。对不对？这点我们都明白了吗？
And we are not doing any kind of propaganda, or inviting you to join a particular sect. And here I must add I am not your guru, you are not my followers. We are not setting up a new cult, a new society, a new ashram, a new kind of concentration camp. If this is very clear between us, that you and the speaker together are going to take part in all the talks - if there are future talks, that depends on the physical condition of the body.
我们也不是在进行任何一种宣传活动，或者邀请你们加入一个特别的宗派。这里我必须加一句，我不是你们的上师，你们不是我的追随者。我们不是在建立一种新的迷信崇拜，一个新的社团，新的修行处，一种新的集中营。如果我们之间很清楚这点，也就是，你们和讲话者将一起参与到所有的讲话中-如果将来还有讲话的话，那得取决于身体的物理状况。
So we have existed on this earth, according to the scientists and archaeologists and so on, for over two million years, and here we are. What are we? Right? You ask yourself. I am not suggesting what you are. We are opening up the deep cave, the deep underlying causes, the reality that lies behind the cause. So we are going to go into that during the talks. I don't know how many there will be, but I can't assure you. They will tell you whether there will be talk tomorrow, or not. Or there will only be a talk, that is today, and Wednesday a Question and Answer meeting, and next Saturday the last meeting.
根据科学家和考古学家，等等的说法，我们已经存在于这个地球上两百多万年了，我们走到了这里。我们是什么？对不对？你问问你自己。我不会告诉你你是什么。我们在打开这个深深的洞穴，深藏其下的原因，原因背后的事实。我们将在讲话中深入探讨这些。我不知道还能有几个讲话，我不能向你保证。他们会告诉你们明天还有没有讲话。还是，只有今天一次讲话了，周三有个问答会，下周六是最后的聚会。
So together we are going to look at this world, that is ourselves. Right? Are you willing? Or are you frightened, hiding behind all kinds of absurd theories, all the psychological innuendos, all the thing man has put together as they call it religion, the existing society, that is the degeneration that is gradually going on: pollution in all the cities, despoiling the air, and also corruption. This is what we are caught in. So what has gone wrong with us? Or is this a natural course? You understand my question? Do you really want to listen to all this rubbish? You must read about all this in newspapers, if they are honest, magazines, and of course all the gurus in the world have destroyed that thing which they want.
那么我们来看看这个世界，也就是我们自己。对不对？你们愿意吗？或者，你们是不是害怕了，躲藏在各种荒唐的理论、心理暗喻的背后，那些人为制造出来的所谓宗教，现存的社会，正逐渐发生着退化：城市里的污染，争夺空气，还有腐败。这就是我们深陷于其中的世界。我们出了什么问题？还是这是一个自然的过程？你们明白我的问题吗？你们真的想听这些胡说八道吗？你肯定在报纸上读到过所有这些，如果那些报纸和杂志够诚实的话。当然，世界上的所有上师都随心所欲地破坏了这些。
So let us begin, but please bear in mind this is not a lecture. You haven't come to listen to me. You have come to listen to yourself, however complicated that self is, however superficial, however deep. We are going to go into all that. Perhaps not in one talk, but we will see at the end of the talk whether the speaker survives. That's what is behind it: asking you to sit quietly for two or three minutes after the speaker has gone, and the speaker will find out if he can continue tomorrow, or will he collapse at the end of it? It's up to you, because otherwise you, as a listener, may say, yes, yes, it sounds very good, or not at all good. It is not logical, or illogical and so on. Right?
那么让我们开始吧，但是请记在脑子里：这不是一场讲座。你们不是来听我讲。你们是来聆听自己，不管那个自己有多么复杂，多么肤浅，或者多么深刻。我们将深入所有这些。也许不是在一个讲话里，但是我们得看看讲话结束的时候，讲话者是不是活下来了。这就是其后的要求：在讲话者走了之后，请你们安静地坐上两三分钟，讲话者会发现他明天是否能够继续，或者，在结束的时候他会不会倒下？这取决于你，因为你，作为听者，也许会说，是的，是的，这听起来很不错，或者根本就不好。这不符合逻辑，或者不逻辑，等等。对不对？
What are we, as human beings, who have lived on this earth for such a long period of time, why are we as we are? You have understood my question? Right? Have you understood my question? Yes, sir?
我们是什么，作为人类，在地球上生活了这么长的时间，为什么我们会是现在这样？你们明白我的问题吗？是吗？你们明白我的问题了吗？是吗，先生？
Q: No.
提问者：没有。
K: What?
克：什么？
Q: He says he hasn't understood.
提问者：他说他不明白。
K: It is very simple. I am using ordinary English, not professional English. I will say it once more: we are sharing all this together. You are not merely listening to the speaker, we are taking counsel together, we are deliberating. That word is really a very good word, to deliberate, it means take counsel together, weigh things together, not your prejudice, not your opinions, not your conclusions, but the whole process of thinking, what it has made man into and so on. Right? If you don't understand it, I'm sorry I am not going back to it. We are talking ordinary English.
克：这很简单啊。我用的是日常用的英语，不是专业英语。我再说一遍：我们是在一起分享这些。你们不仅仅是听讲话者说，我们是在一起考虑，一起商讨。这个词真是个非常好的词，商讨，意思是一起探讨，一起考虑，不是你的偏见，你的观点，你的结论，而是整个思想过程，把人类变成了什么样，等等。对不对？如果你不明白，抱歉我也不会回过头去讲了。我们说的是很普通的英语。
So what has happened to us, to each one of us? That is, we have lived on this earth as human beings for a very, very long time, which is called evolution. And during that evolution of experience, knowledge, thinking, all the things that man has put together, including his superstitions, his gods, his various empires, and when you come down to the actual fact, what has happened to each one of us? Don't you want to know? Or are we frightened to know? Which is it? Gosh, what's the matter? Not a response.
那么，我们都出了什么事，我们每一个人？也就是说，作为人类，我们在这个地球上生活了很长很长的时间了，这叫做进化。在进化过程中，经验，知识，思想，人类制造的所有东西，包括他的迷信，他的上帝，他的诸多帝国，而当你来到最真实的事实跟前，我们每个人都发生了什么事？你们不想知道吗？还是你们害怕知道？是怎么回事？天，怎么回事？没有一个回答。
Q: We want to enquire.
提问者：我们想要探询。
K: I don't understand what you are talking about. And you are the rest of the world; what you suffer, what you go through, the daily boredom, the pettiness of one's life: the struggle, the pain, the anxiety, the sorrow, the negligence, the carelessness, indifference. And this is shared by all humanity. Right? Everybody goes through this, your guru - if you have one, I hope you haven't got any - your guru, if he is at all awake, if he is at all sane and rational, he goes through all this. The kings and the ministers go through all this: pain, anxiety, uncertainty, sorrow, death, hoping for something in the future. This is what all human beings, wherever you go, however civilized one is, or not, every human being goes through this. Right? Are you doubting that fact? Do you doubt that, that every human being throughout the world goes through all this? And this makes up our consciousness. Right? Are we understanding each other? Are we working together? Are we investigating together? Or am I guiding you, helping you? I am not. Please be assured of one fact: I don't want to help you, I am not your guide or your helper. Then you will ask, why am I sitting here. You are sitting here probably out of curiosity, out of what you have heard, or read a few lines in a book, or you have been told, go and listen to the chap, you will find out. So please be clear, the speaker is not guiding you, is not helping you. He won't help you. Because you have been helped, all through the ages you have been helped: saviours, gurus, mahatmas, you know the whole list of them, they are all too willing to help you, with their ashrams, with their Foundations, including this! And you have been helped. If you have any trouble you trot off to a guru, or to a temple asking for help, which is called prayer. And you have been helped, you have been guided, politically, religiously, psychiatrically, and at the end of it all you are what you are.
克：我不知道你在说什么。你就是整个人类；你受的苦，你所经历的，生命中每天的厌倦和琐碎：挣扎，痛苦，焦虑，悲伤，懈怠，粗心，冷漠。而这些为整个人类所共有，对不对？每个人都经历着这些，你的上师-如果你有的话，我希望你没有-你的上师，如果他是清醒的话，如果他是神志健全和理智的，他也经历着所有这些。国王和大臣们也经历着这些：痛苦，焦虑，不确定，悲伤，死亡，期望着未来某件事会实现。这是所有人类经历的事情，不管你去哪，不管你多么文明，或者不文明，每个人类都经历着这些。对不对？你怀疑这个事实吗？你是否怀疑，世界上的每个人都经历着这些？而这些构成了我们的意识。对不对？我们听明白对方了吗？我们是在一起工作吗？我们是在一起探查吗？还是，我在指导你，帮助你？我没有。请确认一个事实：我不想帮你，我不是你的向导或者你的帮助者。那么你会问，我为什么要坐在这儿？你坐在这儿，可能是出于好奇，出于你所听到的，或者读了一本书里的几句话，或者有人告诉你，去听听这个家伙说什么，你会有所发现。所以请清楚一点，讲话者不是在指导你，不是在帮助你。他不会帮你。因为你已经被帮助过了，历经世世代代你都被帮助过了：救世主，上师，圣人，你知道这整个名单，他们都太愿意帮助你了，用他们的修行地，他们的基金会，包括现在这个！所以你被帮助过了。如果你有麻烦，你就去找上师，或者去寺庙寻求帮助，那叫做祈祷。你被帮助过了，你被指导过了，从政治上、宗教上、精神分析学上都受过指导，但是最后，你就是现在这样。
So the speaker says - please take this seriously - he is not guiding you, he is not helping you. On the contrary, together we are walking the same path, together we are sharing, nourishing. I am using the word 'nourishing' both intellectually, psychologically, we can't feed each other, there are too many people.
所以讲话者说-请认真对待这些-他不是在指导你，他不是在帮助你。相反，我们是在一起走过同一条路，一起分享，一起滋养。我用“滋养”这个词，也是智识层面的，心理层面的，我们不能喂饱对方，人太多了。
So bearing that in mind all the time, that you and the speaker together are looking at this whole problem, not just my sorrow, or your sorrow, your anxiety, uncertainty. It is shared by every human being on earth. And your consciousness is the consciousness of mankind. Right? You may not agree, but investigate, even intellectually, logically, not emotionally then you are lost. Logically, sanely, looking at it, not with prejudice, opinions, but look at it: you suffer and so does the man in Russia. You are uncertain, so is the man in China. Right? So your consciousness is shared by all humanity, so you are humanity. Right? You are humanity, not Mr Smith, Mr Rao, or something like that. If that is shown to you, not accepted but shown logically, investigating together, sharing together, then what shall we do? Do you understand my question? Seeing all this, how humanity has been divided into nations, into sects, into religions - my guru is better than your guru - and so on. This division, this separation exists all over the world. That's one of the major causes of war, nationalities. Right? But you will go on with your nationalism, with your Hinduism, with your tradition in spite of what the speaker is saying. Right? Right, sir? You all agree, I am glad, but we will carry on as before. Right? You are a rummy crowd!
所以，请时刻记得这一点，你是和讲话者一起在看这整个问题，不只是我的悲伤，或者你的悲伤，你的焦虑，不确定。地球上的每个人都共有这些。而你的意识就是整个人类的意识。对不对？你也许不同意，而是去寻查，即使是从智力上，从逻辑上，而不是从感情上去探寻，然后你也迷失了。逻辑地理性地观察，不带着偏见、观点，而是看着这个事实：你受苦，俄罗斯的人也受苦。你不确定，中国的人也不确定。对不对？所以你的意识是全人类共有的，所以你就是整个人类。对不对？你是整个人类，而不是史密斯先生，饶先生，或者类似的等等。如果这一点展示给你，不是要你接受，而是逻辑地展示给你，一起寻查，一起分享，那么我们该怎么做？你明白我的问题吗？看到所有这些，人类是怎样被划分成了国家，派别，宗教-我的上师比你的上师好-等等。这种界分，这种分裂，遍及全世界。民族划分，这正是战争的主要原因之一。对不对？但是，尽管讲话者说了这么多，你还是继续着民族主义，你作为印度人，继续带着你的传统。对不对？对不对，先生？你们都赞同，我很高兴，但是我们还是会一如既往。对不对？你们真是很奇怪的一群人！
When one actually realizes this fact, that you the entire humanity, not physically, but psychologically, then you invariably must ask the question, what am I to do. Right? Don't wait for me to tell you. We are sharing together. We are taking counsel together. This is not a lecture. I must repeat this because you are used to lectures, somebody pouring forth for your information. So what shall we do, if we see the rational, sane fact, that we are the entire humanity? Of course, you won't see this because to you it is very important to have individuality: I am separate from you. Of course you are separate from me physically, you are a woman, I am a man, or I am taller, you are shorter and all the rest of it. Apart from biological division, consciousness, our consciousness which is the I with all its memories, experiences, with its longing and all the rest of it, that consciousness is shared by every human being. Right? You won't agree to all this. It doesn't matter, I'll go on; if you'd like listen, do, but it doesn't matter if you listen or don't listen. Like the birds, they go on singing, like a storm full of wind, rain and thunder and great beauty of light.
当一个人真的认识到这个事实，也就是，你是整个人类，不是物理上的，而是心理上的，那么你就必然会问，我该怎么做。对不对？不要等我来告诉你。我们是在一起分享。我们是一起商讨。这不是一场讲座。我必须反复说这一点，因为你们习惯了听讲座，有人向你倾倒信息。那么，如果我们看到了这个理智的理性的事实，也就是我们是整个人类，我们该怎么做呢？当然，你不会看到这点，因为对你来说，拥有独特性太重要了：我和你是分离的。在身体上你和我当然是分离的，你是个女人，我是个男人，或者我高一些，你矮一些，以及等等其他的。除了生理上的划分，意识，我们的意识，也就是“我”及其所有记忆、经验、渴望等等，这个意识被每个人类所共有。对不对？你不会同意这一点。没关系，我会继续；如果你愿意听，那么就听着，但是你听还是不听，都没关系。就像鸟儿，它们会继续歌唱，就像充满着风、雨和巨大的光之美的暴风雨。
So if one actually, not theoretically or intellectually, realizes, that is, to realize something, like a cobra is poisonous, a rattle snake is poisonous, so don't go near it. It is not mere conclusion, it is your death if you go near it. So physically we are conditioned to a snake. So you are conditioned, shaped, moulded in the idea that you are separate human beings. You have a separate soul, the Christian idea and if you realize that you are humanity, not whether you question it, you are. If you look at it carefully, go into it deliberately, not avoid it, you will see you suffer, the other man suffers, he quarrels with his wife, and children and all the rest of that daily life. So what shall one do? Right? What will you do? What's your action? Not conclusion. You understand, sir? Because a conclusion is not a fact. You may derive from a fact a conclusion, but the conclusion is not the fact.
所以，如果一个人自然地，不是从理论上或者智识上，认识到，就是说认识到某件事，比如眼镜蛇有毒，响尾蛇有毒，所以就不会接近它。这不只是结论，如果你接近它，你就会死。于是，身体上我们被一条蛇困住了。所以，你被“你是分离的人类”这个观念局限了，塑造了，定型了。你有个单独的灵魂，基督教是这个观点，而如果你认识到你就是人类，不管是不是质疑这点，你就是整个人类。如果你仔细地看，主动深入进去，而不逃避它，你会发现你受苦，别人也受苦，他和妻子、和孩子、和日常生活中的所有其他人争吵。那么他该怎么办？对不对？你会怎么办？你的行动是什么？不是结论。你明白吗，先生？因为结论不是事实。你也许会从一个事实中得出一个结论，但是结论不是事实。
I am in the midst of a sea of people who don't seem to react to all this. Your whole religions are based on individuality, all your prayers, your worship. It doesn't matter, I'll go on.
我处在人海之中，而这些人好像都没反应。你们的整个宗教都基于个体性，你们所有的祈祷，你们的崇拜都如此。没关系，我会继续。
So what shall one do? What am I to do, living in this society, the society that is so corrupt, what shall I do? Whatever I do, will it affect the society? You understand? Will it affect my neighbour, will it affect the man, not in the moon, but the man in Russia? So I have to ask, who created this society? Right? Are you at all thinking together, or not? Oh my god, what am I to do if you don't react, if you don't smell something? So we are asking, who created this society which is so immoral, so corrupt, all over the world, which is destroying man, which is degenerating, which is polluting the whole world, what shall I do, or not do, to affect this society? Do you understand my question? So I ask myself, am I different from the society? Right? Who created this society which we live in? Right? Are you asking that question yourself, or are you just listening to me? Are you asking that question? What's your answer, if you are really using your brain, not just nodding your head? What's your answer? Not some gods.
那么一个人该怎么办？我该怎么办，生活在这个社会里，这个社会如此腐败，我该怎么办？不管我做什么，会影响这个社会吗？你明白吗？会影响我的邻居，会影响俄罗斯的人吗？不是月亮上的人。所以我要问，谁创造了这个社会？是不是？你们究竟有没有在一起思考？哦天哪，如果你不作出反应，如果你闻不到某个东西，我该怎么办？所以我们在问，谁创造了这个如此堕落如此腐败的社会，全世界都是如此，这个社会在摧毁着人类，在退化，在污染整个世界，我该做什么，或者不做什么，来影响这个社会？你们明白我的问题吗？所以，我问自己，我不同于这个社会吗？是吗？是谁创造了我们置身其中的这个社会？对不对？你是不是也在问自己这个问题，还是你只是在听我说？你在问这个问题吗？如果你真的动用了你的大脑，而不只是点点头，那你的回答是什么？你的回答是什么？不是什么上帝。
Q: Something...
提问者：某些…
K: I am talking for a while, if you don't mind, a little later. You don't mind? When there is a question and answer meeting, if there is one, you can put all kinds of questions to me. So who created this society? My father, your father, my grandmother and your grandmother. Right? They all helped to build up this corrupt society in which we live. So we are the creators of this society, the builders of this society, through our ambition, our fears, the desire for security in my relationship, in my job, power, position. Right? We all want that. Am I saying the truth, or something imaginary? So we are the builders of this society. Society is not different from me, from us, because we are ambitious, we are greedy, we are frightened, we want position, power, privileges. Right? We want all this, and god too, occasionally. So god is our creation too. You may not agree, don't agree, let's investigate it, share it. The western world is captured by that particular religion, and they are making havoc out of it. Sorry, I mustn't say that. God and money go together. The least trouble you have, you want somebody to help you, emotionally, or sexually, or psychologically. There are all those temples, mosques and churches and a convenient priest there. I am not being cynical, I am just showing you the facts.
我先说一会，如果你不介意，一会再跟你说。你不介意？问答会的时候，如果有的话，你们可以问我各种各样的问题。那么，是谁创造了这个社会？我的父亲，你的父亲，我的祖母和你的祖母。对不对？他们都帮助建立了这个腐败的我们生活于其中的社会。所以我们是这个社会的创造者，这个社会的建设者，借由我们的野心，我们的恐惧，在我的关系中和工作中对安全、权力、职位的欲望。对不对？我们都想要这些。我说的是真相，还是想象出来的东西？所以我们就是这个社会的建设者。社会与我，与我们并无不同，我们野心勃勃，我们贪婪，我们恐惧，我们想要地位、权力、权威。对不对？我们想要所有这些，偶尔还想要上帝。而上帝也是我们创造出来的。你可能不同意，不要同意，让我们来调查，来分享。西方世界被那种特定的宗教所俘获，他们因此造成了巨大的混乱。对不起，我不能这么说。上帝和金钱同在。你有些许的麻烦，你就想要别人来帮你，从感情方面，性方面或者心理上帮助你。有那么多寺庙，清真寺和教堂，还有一个很方便的牧师。我不是在愤世嫉俗，我只是在指出事实。
So what shall I do, knowing that I am the rest of humanity, not Mr K? You understand my question? What am I, as a human being, who is the rest of mankind, I don't ask whither mankind, where mankind is going because I am mankind. I wonder if you see the importance of this. I wonder if you see the depth of this, the beauty of it, the immensity of it, the responsibility. I am afraid you don't. Because if you really saw, felt utterly responsible for your brother, utterly responsible for your neighbour, not that you won't interfere with him or hit him on the head, or tell him what to do, you are the neighbour, you are your brother's keeper. I don't know if you see all this.
知道到我就是整个人类，那么我该怎么办？不是克怎么办。你明白我的问题吗？我是什么，作为一个人类，也就是整个人类，我不是问人类去向何处，因为我就是人类。我不知道你是否看到了这点的重要。我不知道你是否看到了它的深度，它的美，它的无限，这责任。恐怕你们没有。因为如果你真的看到了，感觉到你对你的兄弟要完全负责，对你的邻居完全负责，不是你去干涉他或者敲他的头或者告诉他该怎么办，而是，你就是你的邻居，你就是你的兄弟的守护人。我不知道你是否看到了所有这些。
Then what shall I do? I am not asking your help, I am not asking through prayers for that almighty to guide me - if there is an almighty. I am asking this question, putting this question to myself, as you must, and I hope you do. What shall I do, knowing that I am the rest of mankind? I am mankind. I may be a woman, or a man, short, tall, brown, or whatever colour, colour is not important, what is important is, is what is inside the skull.
那么，我该怎么办？我不是在寻求你的帮助，我不是在通过祈祷那万能的主来指引我-如果有万能的主的话。我在问这个问题，用这个问题来问自己，你也必须如此，我希望你能这么做。知道了我就是整个人类，我该怎么办？我就是人类。我可能是女人，或者男人，矮或者高，棕色皮肤，或者不管什么肤色，肤色并不重要，重要的是，头颅里的是什么。
So what shall I do? Whatever I do, will it affect the society, which is me. You understand? Society is me. I have separated myself from society, but the fact is society has been put together by man. And man in his desire to have security, permanent security, through property, through convictions, through formulas and so on and so on, he has done everything. Right? He has built churches, he has built mosques, he has built temples, not only in this country, but they are taking them to America unfortunately.
那么，我该怎么办？不管我做什么，会影响社会，也就是我吗？你明白吗？社会就是我。一个人想要拥有安全，永久的安全，通过财产，通过信仰，通过模式，等等等等，每件事他都做了。对不对？ 他建了教堂，建了清真寺，建了寺庙，不仅是在这个国家，而且不幸的是，他们还把这些带到了美国。
So what shall I do? I am not separate from society, I am not separate from the rest of humanity, so whatever I do has immense meaning and responsibility. Right? Immense. So what is my responsibility? Right? What's your answer? Don't sit there and look at me. My first response to that is, what do we mean by action? Right? I want to do something, not only as a human being, I want to affect society, I want to change society, I want to stop this degeneration that is going on. You know what is going on in the world. I won't go into all that. So what action shall I take?
那么我该怎么办？我和社会是分不开的，我和其他人类是分不开的，所以无论我做什么，都有巨大的意义和责任。对不对？巨大的。所以，我的责任是什么？是不是？你的回答是什么？不要坐在那看着我。对此我的第一反应是，我们说的行动是什么意思？对不对？我想做点事，不只是作为一个人，我想影响社会，我想改变社会，我想停止正在发生的这种腐化。你知道世界上都在发生着什么。我不会详细讲那些。那么我该采取什么行动？
So before we put that question, or in putting that question, I must enquire what is action. You tell me, what is action? To act. To act according to a formula is no action at all because you repeat, and that repetition is part of our security. And that repetition gives us a certain sense of well being, we are stable, we are firm. So is action based on certain memories, certain knowledge, certain past experiences and so on? What is action? What is it to act? Not, I will act, or I have acted, to act now. You understand my question? No? You are all very well educated, aren't you, BAs, MAs, engineers, PhDs and MAD and so on. You are all well educated, and probably you have never put this question to yourself: what shall I do, realizing I am the entire humanity, and the responsibility of it, the greatness of it? So we are asking, what is action? To act, not in the future, that is not action, not, I have acted, which is the past. So what is action which has no past or the future? Go into it, this is a tremendously important question. If you base your action on the past it is no action, it is a repetition, modified, a little changed but it is still repetition. Right? God, Where are you educated!
所以，在我们提出这个问题之前，或者在提出这个问题的时候，我必须探询行动是什么。你们来告诉我，什么是行动？去行动。根据一种模式行动，根本就不是行动，因为你在重复，那重复就是我们安全感的一部分。那重复给我们某种程度的舒适感，我们是稳定的，我们是安全的。那么，行动是基于某些记忆、某些知识、某些过去的经验等等的吗？行动是什么？什么是去行动？不是我将要行动，或者我已经行动，而是现在就行动。你明白我的问题吗？不明白？你们都受过良好的教育，不是吗？文学学士，文学硕士，工程师，哲学博士，以及疯士（克的幽默，MAD是顺着PhD来的），等等。你们都受过良好的教育，可能你从未问过自己这个问题：意识到我就是整个人类及其责任和伟大，我应该怎么办？所以，我们在问，什么是行动？行动，不是在将来，那不是行动，也不是我行动过了，那是过去。那么，什么是既没有过去也没有将来的行动？深入进去，这是个极其重要的问题。如果你把行动基于过去，那么那不是行动，那是重复，经过改进或者有一点点改变，但还是重复。对不对？天，你们是在哪受的教育！
So is there an action, please I am asking this question most seriously, is there an action which is not dependent on the past or conforming to a future pattern? You understand? Or - this is a little more difficult - or there is no action at all. We will have to go into it much more slowly. Do you want to listen to all this blah? Or do you want to sit still and meditate? I don't know what you call meditation. That is one of those words that is bandied about all over the place. You go to a little village in California and they talk about meditation. I say, what do you mean by that word? They don't know but they are going to meditate. I won't go into that now.
那么，是否有一种行动，请想一想，我在极其严肃地提出这个问题，是不是有一种行动，既不依赖于过去也不遵从于未来的模式？你明白吗？或者-这有点难-又或者，根本就没有行动。我们得慢慢地深入这一点。你们想听这些唠叨吗？还是你们想安静地坐着冥想？我不知道你们管什么叫冥想。这是在这个地方被滥用的词语之一。你去加州的一个小村子，那儿的人在谈论冥想。我说，你们说的这个词是什么意思？他们不知道，但是他们打算冥想。我现在不会详细说那些。
So action which is not dependent on time. You understand this? No, careful, sir, don't agree with what is being said for heaven's sake. Is there an action without the motive, self-interest, without gaining reward? You understand my question? All this implies time. Right? I will be rewarded for my good work, I will be rewarded if I pray for a refrigerator - why not, that is as good as god, more real than god, more actual than god. So is there an action - this requires your using your brain, not your emotions - which is not based on self-interest, a conclusion towards which you are working? So you have to investigate what is time. You understand? Because we function in time. Am I boring you? Would you kindly tell me if I am boring you.
那么，行动不依赖于时间。你明白这点吗？不，当心一点，先生，不要同意正在说的话，看在老天的份上。是不是有一种行动，没有动机，没有自利，不是为了获取奖赏？你明白我的问题吗？所有这些都意味着时间。对不对？我将会因我出色的工作而受奖，如果我为一个冰箱而祈祷我会得到奖赏-为什么不呢，那跟上帝一样好，比上帝还真实。所以，是不是有这样一种行动-这需要你运用你的大脑，而不是你的感情-那行动不基于自利，不基于你汲汲追求的某个结论？那么你就得探索什么是时间。你明白吗？因为我们在时间里运作。我让你觉得烦了吗？如果我让你厌倦了，请好心地告诉我。
Q: No, sir.
提问者：没有，先生。
K: I know, I know. The invariable answer. But am I actually boring you? So you have to look into the nature of time. Right? What is time? Not according to sunrise, sunset, that has its own pattern, a new moon in the tender sky, and the full moon, which I saw the other day rising out of the sea. It was a marvellous sight. Sunrise and the evening star, all that is part of time. And there is time also if you have a small child, a baby to grow up into a man, it requires a lot of time, twenty years, thirty years, ninety years. And that also means time. We live with time; you have to get up in the morning at a certain time, cook and all the rest of it. So we live, function, act within the limits of time. To us time is extraordinarily important. There was a meeting here at five thirty, and you have to make all kinds of arrangements to get here at five thirty. So did the speaker. So we live in time, not the time of the scientists, which is too complicated - I won't go into that. We live by time but also there is physical time and there is psychological time. Right? That is, I am, I will be. I am jealous, uncertain, ambitious, wanting to fulfil, climb the ladder and all the rest of it; to climb the ladder you need time, step by step to get to the top. Right? So there is psychological time and physical time. Is this clear? Don't agree, please. You are not agreeing with me, this is a fact. You are not used to this kind of thinking, that is your trouble. You don't want to share anything with anybody.
克：我知道，我知道。回答肯定是这样的。但是实际上我让你厌烦了吗？那么，你得深入探询时间的本质。对不对？什么是时间？不是根据日升日落，那些有它自己的方式，柔和天空中的新月，还有满月，那天我看到它从海上升起。美妙的景象。日出和晚星，都是时间的一部分。如果你有个小孩子，也会有时间，从一个婴儿长成大人，这需要很多时间，20年，30年，90年。那也意味着时间。我们活在时间里；早上你得在某个时间起床，做饭，等等。所以，我们在时间的限制内生活，运作，以及行动。对我们来说，时间极其重要。5点半这里有个会议，你得做各种安排以确保5点半能到。讲话者也是如此。所以我们生活在时间里，不是科学家们说的时间，那太复杂了-我不会讲那些。我们靠时间生活，但是物理时间外还有心理时间。对不对？就是说，我现在如何，我将要如何。我嫉妒，不确定，野心勃勃，想要成就，爬上梯子，等等等等；爬梯子需要时间，一步步爬到顶。对不对？所以有心理和物理时间。清楚了吗？请不要同意。你并不同意我，这是事实。你们不习惯于这种思考，这是你的麻烦。你不想跟任何人分享任何东西。
So are we bound to time? You understand? I am greedy, but give me a little time, I will be non-greedy; give me a little time to be non-violent. Right? So we use time as a means of reward and punishment. Right? Do you read newspapers? They inform you about everything that is happening according to their editor, and you absorb all that is being said in the newspaper. But here you are not absorbing, you are actually thinking. And if you don't want to think you can go home, much better. But if you want to think, find out, you have not only to use your brain, which is extraordinarily active, if you want money you work like hell to get it. If you want a position, power, good lord, look at them all working their hands off. And if you want to find out if there is an action which is timeless - you understand my question - which is not based on time as past, present and the future. So what is time, apart from physical time? Time includes the past. Right? All the knowledge which the scientists have acquired, step by step, experience by experience, trying without failing, adding more and more and more to what already they know. Right? Do you understand something of what I am saying? Good!
那么我们是受限于时间吗？你明白吗？我贪婪，但是给我点时间，我会变得不贪婪；给我点时间变得不暴力。对不对？所以我们把时间当作奖惩的一种手段。对不对？你们读报吗？根据编辑的视角，它们告诉你发生的所有事情，你吸收报纸上说的所有东西。但是，在这里，你们没有吸收，你们实际上是在思考。如果你不愿意思考，那你就可以回家了，那会更好。但是如果你想思考，想发现，你就不仅仅要用你的大脑，它是极其活跃的，如果你想要赚钱，你就会拼命工作。如果你想要一个职位，权力，天哪，看看他们都在为此忙得不亦乐乎。而如果你想发现是否有一种没有时间的行动-你明白我的问题-那行动不基于作为过去现在未来的时间。那么，物理时间之外的时间是什么？时间包含着过去。对不对？科学家们获得的所有知识，一步步，一个个经验，不停歇的尝试，不停地往他们的已知上添加越来越多的东西。对不对？你们是不是明白了我说的一些意思？好！
So time is the past, time is the present, time is the future. This is the cycle in which we are caught. I remember my experience, what a lovely time I had, that's memory. Then that day which was so horrible, I remember that. So my brain is full of memories of the past, the present and the future. So the future is what I am now. Right? Right, sirs? Don't agree, sir, please for god's sake don't agree. If you don't see it doesn't matter, but since you have taken all the trouble to come here it's a waste of money and your energy if you don't listen, if you don't capture the real inward story of all this, you are wasting your time, your energy, your money. So time is the past, the present and the future. The scientists would say something else, I have discussed this matter with them, they want all kinds of complicated manoeuvres to bring about their own conclusions.
那么，时间是过去，时间是现在，时间是未来。这就是我们深陷其中的循环。我记得我的经验，我曾有过多么快乐的时光，那是记忆。而有一天过得非常糟糕，我也记得。所有我的大脑充满了过去的记忆，以及现在和将来。所以未来就是我的现在。对不对？对不对，先生？不要同意，先生，看在老天的份上不要同意。如果你没看到这点，那没关系，但是你毕竟费尽周折来到了这里，如果你不听，那是对金钱和你的能量的浪费，如果你没有抓住所有这些内在的真实故事，你是在浪费你的时间，你的能量，你的金钱。所以说，时间是过去，是现在，是未来。科学家可能会说是别的什么，我跟他们讨论过这个问题，他们需要各种复杂的演练才能得出他们自己的结论。
Now the past is time - all the memories, all the knowledge, all the experience, all the pain, the anxiety, the loneliness, the despair, uncertainty, all that is the past. And that is acting in the present. Right? Modified, changed slightly, but all the past is acting now. What you thought ten years ago, slightly modified, it is still going on. You believe in god, so that belief gives you a certain security, and tomorrow you will still believe in god whether it is illusory or fanciful or nonsensical. So the past modifying itself in the present becomes the future. Right, clear? Very simple. So the future is now. No? Because what you are, you will be tomorrow unless you radically bring about a mutation. You understand what I am saying? You are all asleep. Would you like to go to bed? Probably you have never thought about all this, you have never gone into it, you have never taken the trouble to investigate, you have never given time, a little time during the day to say, my god, what is all this about, what is all this living, what is the meaning of this nonsensical way of living. So if you could give ten minutes now, giving your attention, giving your heart to find out, not mere intellectual, verbal action but give your whole being, your heart to find out, you will find out very quickly for yourself. Then no god, no priest, no country, no power, position and all that, they disappear completely, they are meaningless.
过去是时间-所有的记忆，所有的知识，所有的经验，所有的痛苦，焦虑，孤独，绝望，不确定，所有这些都是过去。而这些都在现在运作着。对不对？经过修正，轻微的改变，但是所有过去都在现在运作着。你10年前想什么，稍微改动过后，现在还在继续。你相信上帝，那信念给你某种安全感，明天你还会继续相信上帝，不管它是不是虚幻的或者假想出来的或者荒谬的。所以，过去将自己在现在稍作改变，就变成了未来。对不对，清楚了吗？很简单。所以未来就是现在。不是吗？因为你现在什么样，你明天就还是什么样，除非你彻底带来突变。你明白我在说什么吗？你们都睡着了。你想上床睡觉吗？可能你们从没想过所有这些，你们从没深入探索过，你们从不去费力查明，你们从不拿出时间，拿出一天中的一点点时间来问一问，我的天，这都是怎么回事，这生活是怎么回事，这种荒唐的生活方式到底有什么意义。所以，如果你现在能拿出十分钟来，拿出你的注意力，全心地投入去发现，不是智识上的口头行动，而是付出你的整个存在，你的全心去发现，你很快就能自己发现。然后，就没有了上帝，没有了牧师，没有了国家，没有了权力、地位等等，它们统统消失了，它们毫无意义。
So the future is now. You understand? Because I am this now: I am greedy, envious, I have several enemies - not I, suppose I have - enemies, it is my country, it is my god, my guru is better than your guru, and all the rest of that nonsense. So if you can put all that aside - opinions, judgements, evaluations and face the fact that you are after two million years what you are now: frightened, lonely, depressed, anxious, uncertain, that's what you are now, today. Tomorrow you will be exactly the same, slightly modified, but you will be exactly the same. So the future is now. I don't know if you see this.
所以，未来就是现在。你明白吗？因为我现在是这样的：我贪婪，嫉妒，我有几个敌人-不是我，假设我有-敌人，这是我的国家，这是我的上帝，我的上师比你的上师好，以及所有这些胡说八道。那么，如果你把这些都放在一边-观点，判断，评估，去面对这个事实，也就是，过了两百万年你就是现在这样：恐惧，孤独，沮丧，焦虑，不确定，这就是你现在，今天的样子。所以说，未来就是现在。我不知道你是否看到了这些。
So the question then arises: what is change? Do you understand? If I am greedy now, or angry, I have been envious, jealous, I have got a great many hurts, if there is no radical mutation now I will be exactly the same tomorrow. It is logical, sane, therefore I ask myself, what is change? You understand? Is there such a thing as change? You understand all this, at least some of you? We use the word 'transform', which means change forms: I am this but I am going to change into that, which is still the same pattern. Right?
那么问题来了：改变是什么？你明白吗？如果我现在是贪婪的，或者愤怒的，我一直是嫉妒的，羡慕的，我受过很多伤害，如果现在没有彻底的突变，那么明天我还会是完全一样的。这是符合逻辑的，理智的，所以我问我自己，改变是什么？你明白吗？是不是有改变这回事？你们必须明白所有这些，至少你们中的一些能明白是不是？我们用“改变”这个词，意思是外形的变化：我现在是这样的，但是我将变成那样，还是同一个模式。对不对？
What does the word 'love' mean to you? Have you ever asked that question? Love of god, love of pictures, love of literature, I love my wife, which may be rather doubtful. I love literature and so on. What does that word mean to each one of us? Would you like to wait to answer, take time? Or shall I proceed with it? You understand? Would you like to answer that question, what is love, or would you want me, the speaker, to go into it. It's much easier for the speaker to go into it! It is an important question, very, what is love? How will you find out? How will you find out for yourself the truth of the matter, not all the romantic values, you know all that stuff, I don't have to. So what is it that is love, which is not emotion, which is not sexual response, which is not an imaginative - you know, all that stuff? So what is love to you?
“爱”这个词对你来说意味着什么？你曾经问过这个问题吗？对上帝的爱，对图画的爱，对文学的爱，我爱我的妻子，这可能非常可疑。我爱文学，等等。这个词对我们每个人来说意味着什么？你们想花时间等一等再回答吗？还是我可以继续说下去？你明白吗？你想回答这个问题吗，什么是爱，或者你想让我，讲话者来深入探讨。由讲话者来探讨那要容易多了！这是个很重要的问题，非常重要，爱是什么？你要怎样才能发现？你要怎样自己去发现这件事情的真相，而不是所有那些价值观，你知道那些东西，我不会详细说那些。那，爱是什么？那爱不是感情，不是性反应，不是假想出来的-你知道，那些东西。那么，对你来说，爱是什么？
Q: Silence.
提问者：寂静。
K: Silence. Is that love? Silence. When you hit your wife, or push her, or do something to her, are you silent? Anything goes in this country. Right? All the saints, all the gurus, all the latest miracle workers, and all that, you absorb everything. Right? Somebody writes a book, and you say, yes, I agree with that. Somebody comes along and contradicts that and you say, yes. And you have banished from this country Buddha. Or you say, yes, he is one of us. So your brain is capable of absorbing rubbish, agreeing with something that appears to be true. Don't you do all this, actually, if you face the fact? Don't you? Your brain is capable of absorbing anything that goes in the name of religion: pure rubbish; and something most extraordinarily true. And this melange, this mix up, that's your life. Right?
克：寂静。那是爱吗？寂静。当你打了你妻子，或者推了她，或者对她做了什么，你是安静的吗？这个国家里发生着的每件事。是不是？所有那些圣人，所有的上师，所有的最时新的奇迹工作者，所有那些，每种东西你们都吸收。是不是？有人写了本书，然后你说，是的，我同意书中所说。有人过来对此进行反驳，然后你说，是的。你把佛陀从这个国家驱除出去了。或者你说，是的，他就在我们中间。所以你的大脑有能力吸收垃圾，赞同看起来真实的事情。请不要这么做，真的，请你面对现实好吗？可以吗？你的大脑能够吸收以宗教之名的所有东西：完全的垃圾；以及最最真实的事情。而这个大杂烩，这个混合物，就是你的生命。对不对？
I have to stop. So what is love? I have to stop now. We will have to go into this either Wednesday, or tomorrow, or next Saturday. Right? Is that all right? You don't mind?
我得停下了。那，爱是什么？现在我得停下来了。我们将在周三或者明天或者下周六来探讨这个。是不是？可以吗？你们不介意？
Q: Tomorrow.
发问者：明天。
K: You'd love that? Don't be funny, sir. Why do you want it tomorrow? It is convenient for you, is it?
克：你们喜欢这样？别搞笑，先生。你为什么希望是明天？对你很方便，是吗？
Q: Tomorrow is Sunday.
提问者：明天是周日。
K: Tomorrow is Sunday, is that right? And so it is convenient for you. Suppose it is not convenient for me? You are not serious. Anything goes. So sirs, we had better stop and Mr Narayan will announce whether I talk tomorrow or Wednesday. Is that all right sirs?
克：明天是周日，对不对？那么对你们也方便。要是对我来说不方便呢？你们不认真。发生着的任何事。那么先生们，我们最好停下了，那拉扬先生会宣布我是明天讲还是周三讲。好吗，先生们？
Q: Yes.
提问者：好的。
K: Goodbye sirs.
克：再见，先生们。 |
发表于 2009-11-3 08:47
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