MADRAS 2ND PUBLIC TALK 1ST JANUARY 1986
On a week-day to see so many people seems rather absurd, doesn't it? I hope - one hopes that you will all take the trouble to listen to each other.
Last time that we met here, it was on Saturday, we talked about what is love. You may remember it, if you were here. And we are going to enquire together, I mean together, into this whole problem, which is very, very complex. And so, if you don't mind, you have to think, not just agree, not say, 'Yes, it is all right', and then go your own way. So we are going to enquire together into this problem of what is love. Together, not that the speaker is the only talker but together we are going to examine. This is not a lecture, not to instruct, or guide, or help. That would be too stupid because we have had all that kind of help for generations upon generations and we are what we are now. We must start with what we are now, not what we have been in the past, or what we shall be in the future. What we shall be in the future is what you are now. Right? What we are now, our greed, our envy, our jealousy, our great superstitions, our desire to worship somebody, to say 'You are a holy man' and all that tommy rot. So this is not a lecture, not an entertainment, not something you just accept, or deny, but we are talking over like two friends, if you like two enemies across the border. But we are talking together. So you have to exercise your brain, drive it, force it, think it out.
So we are going to go into these questions: what is love? And to enquire very deeply, profoundly into it, we must also enquire first: what is energy? Energy. Every gesture you make is based on energy. While you are listening to the speaker you are exercising your energy. To come here from a long distance, from Benares, or still further up, you have to use a great deal of energy. Right? To build a house, to plant a tree, to make a gesture, to talk. From childhood, from the baby, the first cry of a baby is based on energy, supplied for the moment by the mother and so on. I won't go into all that.
So we must enquire what is energy? Are you all right, can one go on? I can go on, the speaker can go on indefinitely because he has been at it for sixty years, or seventy years, putting the same thing in different words. So if you will kindly, seriously listen because hearing is a great art, perhaps one of the greatest arts, to listen to what the other person has to say, not to interrupt, not to say, 'Yes, I agree with you and let's talk about something else'. We have to enquire first if you can listen at all. This is not a lecture, or an instruction, and all that stuff, we are together examining, questioning, doubting, never, never accepting what the speaker says, never. Right? Don't say, 'Yes we agree' but then go on accepting. He has no authority. So we will start.
What is energy? This has been one of the questions of the scientists. And they say energy is matter. Right? But previous to that: what is energy? You understand? It may be matter. It may be every kind of thing. But what is energy? Primordial energy? Who brought this energy about? Are you understanding what I am talking about? I am not sure. Because this has been a very, very serious question. So we are together taking a long journey into this; together, you and I walking by the same stream. You are not just following the speaker, you are not just saying, 'Yes, that sounds very good, so does the Upanishads, and the Gita and all that bilge that has been said, so we understand'. It isn't a bit like that. First of all one has to have great doubt. Right? Great scepticism. Right sirs? No, don't agree please, don't agree. You don't doubt anything, you accept everything. So doubt, scepticism of your own experience, of your own thoughts, of your own conclusions, doubt it, question it, not accepting a thing from any book, including my own. I am just a passer-by, he is not important.
And we are going to enquire together, it is very important please, together. You know what that means? Co-operating together to build something, to enquire into something, to see what is clear, what is doubtful, what is not clear. You are doing it. And the speaker has done this but you have to do this. So we are together, walking up a very long stream, you can make that stream a very, very, very strong current that will wipe you away, throw you on to the banks, or you can deal with it. So it requires your energy. Right? It requires your energy.
So we are asking: what is energy? (Sound of crows) That crow calling is part of energy. Right? The trees, the birds, the stars, the moon, the rising of the sun, and setting of the sun, it is all energy. Right? Probably you doubt it but it doesn't matter. And whatever you speak requires energy, the first cry of the baby out of the womb, that cry is part of that energy. Right? To play a violin, to speak, to marry, sex, everything on earth requires energy. Right? So we're enquiring together what is this energy, what is the origin, what is the source, how has it begun, who created this energy? Please, carefully, don't say, 'God' and that will be that. I don't accept god. The speaker has no gods - is that all right? You accept that? You will accept anything, so it doesn't matter, I will go on.
Please don't allow yourselves to accept what the speaker is saying at any moment - in his books, in his talks, in his videos, and all that business. So what is this energy? We cannot possibly exist without this energy. There is no existence on earth without this energy: the trees, tremendous energy to pull up water right to the top, tons of it. That is tremendous energy. To build an aeroplane, hundreds of people are responsible for it. To go to the moon and so on. So whatever we do, or don't do, is energy. Right? The dancer, the violinist, the painter, the house-mother, the army general, everything requires energy. Right? That is a fact whether you accept it or not, it doesn't matter. And we are enquiring: what is that energy? The origin of it, not just energy, or accept what the scientists say, which is, energy is matter and so on. I won't go into all that because the speaker has talked to many of them about this matter. And the religious people say `God' and that ends it. Or some guru says... and that also ends it. They don't enquire, they don't doubt, they don't question, they don't have scepticism. Right?
So here we are saying, if you can, abandon all that; what the ancient people have said, abandon all that and leave it at the roadside and we will take a journey together. If you can't put all that aside, or leave it on the roadside, you can't follow the speaker, you can't understand the speaker. Right? Don't bother to understand him, it doesn't matter. But unfortunately you hear a lot of words and you say, `Yes, that sounds reasonable' and so on and so on. We are not dealing with words. Words are not the mountain. The word mountain is not the mountain. The word K is not K. You understand all this? So your name is not you. To recognize that your name is not you. I think this is important to understand. The word is not the actual. Right? Is that clear? The word is not the tree. The word tree is not that. Right? So we have to be very careful now, not to be entangled with words. I wonder if you follow all this. Right? I can go on. My friend has given me a signal, my old friend.
And we are going into something that requires all your energy, all your brain, which is matter, which is the accumulated experience of a million years. And all that evolution means energy. Right? So I am saying - I am asking myself, you are asking for yourself, so I begin to ask myself, is there energy that is not contained, or stimulated, or held within the field of knowledge? You understand my question? Within the field of knowledge. That is, within the field of thought. Please don't agree with it. You agree with everything that is said.
So I ask myself: is there an energy which is not put together, stimulated, arranged by thought? You understand? Thought gives a you great deal of energy, to go to the office every morning at 9.0 o`clock, or 8.30, thought gives you that energy. Right? I must earn more money, I have a better house. Right? Thought, thinking, gives you the energy. I believe it took two or three hundred people, or three thousand people, to build a rocket that went to the moon. Right? So all that requires energy. To shake hands with you, to say, `How are you?', to recognize old friends sitting across there. I am glad they have found a place, we can see each other. So I ask myself, I know thought, thinking, thinking about the past, thinking about the future, planning for the present, that gives a tremendous energy. Right? Right sirs? Thinking I must build a house, so I go to the office, I agree with him, and so on and so on. And you require a great deal of energy to be educated. Right? From ignorance, as they call it, I am not saying it is ignorance - from not knowing mathematics you gradually learn, and energy, to college, university and then you become some kind of something or other. And you have a job, to that every day of your life you go. Or you retire at an early age and die. So thought, please understand this, it is very important if you will, thought creates this energy, to build an aeroplane, think of what has gone into that. Hundreds of people have worked at it, step by step, by step, constructed it, and they have produced 747s, or whatever it is, it is a most marvellous machine that can never go wrong, or man can make it go wrong. And so on and so on. So thought is an extraordinary instrument of creating energy. Right? May I go on? Right?
If one doesn't see that as an actual fact then you are off the mark. Right? If you don't see it as an actual fact that thought creates tremendous energy; you want to become a rich man and you work like blazes to get to be a rich man. Right? You want to do some kind of crazy propaganda and you work very hard, you join groups, sects, gurus and all the rest of that business. So thought is an extraordinary instrument of engendering thought. Right? Thought engendering energy. Right? Don't agree.
So then we have to enquire into the very, very, very nature of thought. Right? Not say all the excuses. (Don't bother about this. I fell yesterday and I hurt myself, that is all, that is over. You can give your attention to something else.) So thought, which has planned this society, which has divided the world into Asia and Europe, the communist, the socialist, the capitalist, and the democratic republican, all that is created by thought. It is simple. The army, the navy, the airforce, to kill, not only for transportation but also to kill. This is so obvious, isn't it? So thought is very important in our life because without thought we can't do anything. Right? For you to come here from a distance required planning, adjusting, taking a train, aeroplane, taking a bus, etc., etc., all that is part of your thinking. Right? So what is thinking? You work it out, don't listen to me. What is thinking? You can't live without a certain kind of thinking. Right? Planning, going back to your house, going back to do your work and so on, get married, sex and everything is contained in the process of thought. So what is thinking? The speaker has talked about it a lot, so don't go back to his books. Don't say, `Yes, I have heard that before'. But here you forget all the books, all the things you have read because we must approach this each time anew. So thinking is based on knowledge. Right? If you had no knowledge, how to come here, or take a bus or this or that, you wouldn't be here. So knowledge, memory, thought. Right? Agree? And we have accumulated tremendous knowledge, how to sell each other, how to exploit each other, how to build bridges, how to create gods and temples, we have done all that. The various ashrams, you know all that business, concentration camps of a certain kind. So thought has done all this: created the army, the navy, the aeroplanes. Thought has also, through knowledge, temples and all that business. So without experience there is no knowledge. Right? Be logical sirs. Logic is necessary up to a certain point. But if you start without logic, clarity then you become superstitious, imaginative, coming to conclusions, building temples and all that kind of nonsense.
So without experience there is no knowledge. The scientists are adding everyday something new. Please follow this carefully, if you don't mind. Experience is limited. Right? Because we are adding more and more to it, through knowledge. Experience, knowledge stored in the brain as memory and then that is the beginning of thought. Right? Am I right? Or are you right? What do you say? God, don't you feel anything? So experience is always limited. Right? Because you are adding more and more and more everyday in the scientific world, in your own life you can learn something more. So experience is limited, therefore knowledge is limited, memory is limited and therefore thought is limited. Right? Am I sane or insane? And we live by thought. So we never recognize, though thought can imagine the most extraordinary heaven and hell, the Olympic gods of the Greeks, the Egyptian gods - do you know anything about all that? No, it doesn't matter.
So your thought is always limited and your gods whom thought has created will always be limited. Right? I know you don't like this but I am going ahead. So your gods, your thinking, however wide it may be, however narrow it may be, all this is limited. And from this limitation we try to find the energy. You understand what I am saying? We try to find the origin, the beginning of creation.
So thought has created fear. Right? No? Hasn't it? Aren't you frightened of what may happen two years later - no? Aren't you frightened of losing a job, of not passing exams, of not climbing the ladder - you know what I mean by climbing the ladder? Getting more and more and more successful. And you are frightened of not being able to fulfil. You are frightened of not being able to stand alone, being strong for yourself. You always depend on somebody. All that breeds tremendous fear. Right? Won't you wink at me! So it is one of our daily facts that we are frightened people. Right? Would you agree to that very simple fact that we are frightened people? And fear arises when we want security. Right? You just listen. All right, I will go on. Don't bother. I will go on.
Fear destroys love. You cannot have love - love cannot exist where fear is. Fear is a tremendous energy. And love has no relationship with fear. They are totally divorced. Right? So what is the origin of fear? Right? All this is to understand, to be alive to the nature of love. If you don't understand all this then go and carry on whatever you are doing. Be happy with it, enjoy yourself, making money, positions and all that. But if you want to go into this very carefully you have not only to examine what is thinking, and the machines, the computers are doing that marvellously - you don't know anything about it. I talked to some of the professors in England just before I came to India, before the speaker came to India. There are computers that can think backwards and forwards. You understand what that means? They can think what? One has to get up at six therefore one has to plan to get up at six. Right? And after six what it has to do. And I believe that is called - I have forgotten, it will come back. So the machines, please understand this for god's sake, the machines, which is the computer - you know that joke? One is praying for god, and there is a computer next door, and the computer says, `Whom are you praying to? God is here.' No sir, you don't know how serious it is. So - architecture, that's the word. I only learnt this recently and it may be wrong, it may be right, a computer can think what has happened and plan what will happen for the future. Which the brain is doing. You understand? You plan to come here, you spend so much money, so much time and then go back, go forward. So the computers can think forwards and backwards, which is call architecture - they may have changed the name by now. I am going to ask one of the specialist here.
So thinking has created fear. Right? Thinking about the future, thinking about the past and not being able to adjust quickly to the environment and so on and so on. So thought and time. Right? No, you don't understand. I will go on. Thought of tomorrow, what might happen, my wife might leave me, or might die. I am a lonely man, then what am I to do? I have several children so I had better marry - remarry someone or other because at least they can look after my children. And so on. That is thinking of the future, based upon the past, right, and so thinking and time are involved in this. Right? Thinking about the future, future being the day after tomorrow, or tomorrow, and thinking about that causes fear. Right? So time, thought, are the factors of fear. And we have examined thought, we have examined time. Time is the past, the present and the future, the rising of the sun and the setting of the sun, planting a seed and it becoming a huge tree. That is time. And also we have got inward time, I am this but I will become a rich millionaire. I am greedy but give me time, I won't be, next life perhaps. And so on and so on. So time and thought are the central factors of fear.
I am looking for a clock.
Audience: Ten past six.
K: Thank you. So I have talked for a hour and a quarter.
Audience: Forty minutes.
K: Is that all, too bad! So, let me finish this. Allow me another twenty minutes, if you don't mind. Do you mind? I won't keep you very long. It won't make any difference if you listen to me or not. You will carry on in exactly the same way as you have been living. You won't change, you won't do a thing because you are caught in a rut, in a groove, in a pattern. And you will go on and death is there. Right?
So we are enquiring into something which you may not understand but it doesn't matter. Time, thought are our principle factors of life. And both time inwardly, I am this but I will be that, or I have been, I shall be, I am, I shall be, all that involves time. And time is thought. They are not two separate things. They are both movements. Then what place has death? You understand sirs? What place in my life has death, suffering, pain, anxiety, loneliness, all those terrible things I have gone through? That is enough.
Sir, I had better take your watch, whoever will give it to me. I might lose it, or you might lose it.
You understand sirs. Please understand this very carefully. Time, thought are central factors of life. And we are saying thought and time are the factors of fear. That is a fact whether you like it or not. So what has suffering to do with time? You are following all this? What has suffering, pain, anxiety, loneliness, despair and all the travail that man goes through, is that all our life? You understand what I am asking you? We are journeying together. You are not just sitting there and listening to a nonsensical speaker. I am asking you. This is your life, right sirs, facts, not imagination. You are born, educated and you fit into BAs, MAs, and all the rest of it, PhDs, in order to get a job, or you become a great Prime Minister, or minister, for god's sake, you understand? This is your life. This is your consciousness, your consciousness is composed of your fears, of your knowledge, of your time, you know consciousness. Your knowledge, everything is in your consciousness. And in that consciousness, of which you are, that consciousness you have always thought is yours, mine. My consciousness. You understand my question?
Don't cross your legs, just sit comfortably as you were. Don't suddenly change.
Your consciousness, if you examine it very carefully, not examine it through judgements, evaluations, what you know, but if you examine it very carefully, your consciousness is made up of its content. Right? Do you understand what I am saying? What you think, your tradition, your education, how many fears, whether you want to exchange your wife for a new wife, or whether you go to a certain temple, all that, loneliness, fear, is what you are. You may think you are divine inside but still you are thinking. When you say, 'Yes, there is god in me', it is still the product of thought. So your consciousness, which is what you are, not physically, but psychologically, inwardly which is your consciousness, is the consciousness of mankind.
This we carefully went into. Don't accept anything he says. Every human being on this earth goes through sorrow, pain, anxiety, uncertainty, insecurity, quarrels, coaxing, wanting this, not wanting. All that is what you are. If you imagine that you are a god incarnate, that is part of thought. Right? Thought, as we pointed out, is limited. So your consciousness, what you are, is the rest of mankind. Every man goes through this. Or every woman. Every human being goes through this. Right? Every human being: your neighbour, your father, your grandfather, and the past generations all over the world. So you are not individuals. This is a blow. Don't accept it. Examine it, don't say 'It is rot', or 'It is not a fact because the Gita says something', or the Upanishads say something, or the Bible says something - it is a fact that you, your suffering, your pain, your anxiety, your loneliness, your knowledge, is common - I won't use common - is shared by every human being. Right? So you are not a separate soul, a separate atman. I know you don't like this because you were brought up to swallow anything that goes along.
So there must be freedom from fear, from hurts, from every kind of thing human beings have put together. There must be freedom, you understand, not just words. 'India must be free from the rest of the world'. That is just nonsense. Nobody can live by themselves, they need a friend, they need somebody to help them.
So, we are trying to find out, enquire, into what is love. Right? We are saying, as long as there is fear of any kind, biologically, fear of attachment, fear of loss, fear of any kind, the other cannot exist. If there is any kind of attachment the other cannot exist - the other being love. So we are going to enquire, if time allows. Then seeing all this, from the beginning, from the baby to the grown man, seeing what the world is, and enquiring into what is death, why are we all so frightened of death? You understand? You know what it means to die? Haven't you seen dozens of people killed, or hurt, haven't you? No? Are you strange people, or what? Belong to a different planet? We have seen death. We have never enquired very deeply into what is death? It is a very important question, as what is life. You understand? We said life is all this rot. We have said life is knowledge, learning, you know, all that stuff, going to the office regularly every day at 9.0 o`clock, or 10.0 o`clock, quarrelling, battling, wanting this and not wanting, you follow? We know what living is. Right? A series of actions produce a series of reactions and sorrow, pain, that is our life. Then if that is living, which it is, don't say, 'Yes, living is something extraordinary' - this is living, quarrelling, divorcing, fighting. But we have never enquired seriously into what is death. You understand what I am talking about? We know what is living, if you are honest, and you can imagine anything you like but this is living. You can imagine heaven is there and god sort of looking after you, every prayer is answered and all that rot. At least for me, for the speaker. But we have never seriously enquired into what is dying. All right sir?
What is dying? It must be an extraordinary thing to die. No? Extraordinary thing. Everything has been taken away from you: your attachments, your money, your wife, your children, your country, your superstitions, your gurus, your gods, everything is gone. Right? You may wish to take it to the other world but you can't take your money, your bank account. Right? - your attachments, your gurus, your temples. You can invent temples up there, not after you are dead but while living you can invent all the gods on earth. But when death comes it says, 'Look, you cannot take anything with you, all your attachments, all your affections, all your hurts, all the things that you have gathered in life, you can't carry, there is no space for that'. Right? So death says, 'Be totally detached'. Right? That is what happens when death comes. You have no person to lean on, nothing. Right? Have you understood this? You can believe what you will, be reincarnated next life, that is a very comforting idea, but it may not be a fact, it may be your imagination, your longing, your 'I can't leave my wife', I have left so much for my son but I will meet him next life so I'll tell him off and so on.
So we are trying to find out what it means to die, while living, not committing suicide, I am not talking about that kind of nonsense. I want to find out what it means to die. Not jump in the river, I don't mean that, or go off to the Himalayas and die there. But I want to find out for myself what it means to die. Which means can I be totally free from everything that man has created, including myself? You know there is an Italian joke, sorry to repeat it: the whole world will die, perhaps including me! So I want to find out the actual fact when death says, enough. Right? Do you want to find out? No. Do you really want to find out?
What does it mean to die? Give up everything. Right? Not sacrifice, death, sensation, don't use those silly words. It cuts you off with a very, very, very sharp razor from your attachments, from your gods, from your superstitions, from your desire for comfort next life and so on and so on. So I am going to find out what death is because it is as important as living. So how can I find out, actually, not theoretically, make evaluations about it and form societies, and you know, all that circus? But I actually want to find out, as you want to find out, I am speaking for you, so don't go to sleep. So what does it mean to die? One is very healthy, the body is functioning, there is no disease, like K - at ninety one, he has no disease, no pain etc., because I have seen experts, doctors. So what does it mean to die? Put that question to yourself, don't listen to me. While you are young, or when you are very old, this question is always there. Right? It is always asking, demanding what it means to die. Are you interested in this? Are you? Oh no, don't shake your heads. You know what it means? To be totally free, to be totally unattached to everything that man has put together, or what you have put together, totally free. No attachments, no gods, no future, no past. You don't know what it all means either. You don't see the beauty of it, the greatness of it, the extraordinary strength of it. So while living to be dying. You understand what that means? While you are living, every moment you are dying. So throughout life you are not attached to a thing, your wife, your father, your mother, your grandmother, your country, nothing - because that is what death means. Right? You may wish for another life. That is all too easy, too simple, too idiotic.
So living is dying. You understand? Living means every day you are abandoning everything that you are attached to. What you worship, what you think, what you don't think, your gods, your country, nothing. Can you do this? Can you do this? A very simple fact but it has got tremendous implications. So that each day is a new day. You understand? Each day you are dying and incarnating. Oh, you don't understand. There is tremendous vitality, energy there. You understand? Because there is nothing you are afraid of. There is nothing that can hurt, being hurt, it doesn't exist. Thought is limited, therefore it has no importance; it has importance because I have to get up and go in five minutes, but time, thought, fear, attachment, and all the things that man has put together has to be totally abandoned. That's what it means to die. God may be waiting to save you in heaven - it all sounds so ridiculous. So can you do it? Will you try it? Will you experiment with it? Not for just a day; every day. No, sir, you can't do it. Your brains are not trained for this. Your brains have been conditioned so heavily, by your education, by your tradition, by your books, by your professors, all the rest of it. This requires to find out what is love; love and death go together. Because death says be free, non-attached, nothing you can carry with you. And love says - there is no word for it. So love can exist only when there is freedom, not from your wife, for a new girl, or a new husband, but the feeling, the enormous strength, the vitality, the energy of complete freedom.
Next time we meet we will talk about religion and meditation. I hope that is all right. I am sorry there are only three talks but the speaker cannot carry on. You understand? He is ninety one and that is good enough.
马德拉斯第二次公开讲演 1986年1月1日
在一个工作日，看见这么多的人似乎挺荒唐，对吗？我希望-我们希望你们会都费点力气来彼此倾听。
我们上次在这里相遇，是星期六，我们谈到了什么是爱。也许你还记得，如果你上次也在的话。我们要一起来探究，我是说一起，整个这个问题，这个非常非常复杂的问题。所以，如果你不介意的话，你得思考，不是光同意，不是说，"对，说得都对"，然后继续我行我素。所以我们要一起探究这个爱的问题。一起，不是说只有讲演者在讲，而是我们要一起来审视。这不是讲课，不是去指示，指导，或者帮助。那样就太愚蠢了，因为我们已经有过所有的那些帮助了，一代又一代地，而我们现在就是这个样子。我们必须从我们现在的状况开始，而不是从我们的过去，或者未来的样子。我们未来即将成为的，就是我们现在的样子。对吧？我们现在的样子，我们的贪婪，羡慕，嫉妒，巨大的迷信，我们崇拜某人的欲望，说"你是一个圣人"以及所有那些废话。所以这不是讲课，不是娱乐，不是某种你接受，或者拒绝的东西，而是我们在像两个朋友那样交谈，或者如果你喜欢的话，像两个在边境上对垒敌人。
我们要进入这些问题了。什么是爱？为深入地、深刻地探究这个问题，我们必须首先探究：什么是能量？能量。你做的每个动作，都有能量在起作用。你在倾听讲演者的时候，你也在使用你的能量。从很远的地方来，从伯纳热斯，或者更远，你得用很大的能量。对吧？盖一栋房子，种一颗棵树，做一个动作，或者说话。从儿童时代起，从婴儿起，婴儿的第一声哭啼，也是要用能量，此时由母亲供给，等等。我不打算仔细去讨论所有这些。
所以我们得探究什么是能量？你们觉得可以吗，我们可以继续吗？我可以继续，这个讲演者可以无止境地继续，因为他已经这样做了六十年了，或者七十年了，用不同的词句说同一个东西。所以如果你能愿意认真地倾听，因为听是一门伟大的艺术，也许是最伟大的艺术之一，倾听别人要说什么，不去打断，不去说，"对，我同意你，让我们谈点别的吧"。我们首先要看你是否能够倾听。这不是讲课，或者指导，以及所有那类东西，我们是在一起审视，提问，怀疑，千万千万不要接受这个讲演者所说的，千万不要。对吧？也不要说，"对，我同意"，但是还是继续接受。他没有权威性。那么我们就开始吧。
什么是能量？这一直是科学家的问题之一。而他们说能量是物质。对吧？但在此之前：什么是能量？你明白吗？它可能是物质。它可能是任何一种东西。但是什么是能量？原始的能量？谁导致了这个能量？你们明白我在说什么吗？我不知道。因为这一直是一个非常非常严肃的问题。所以我们在一起进行一个漫长的旅行，进入这个问题，我们一起，你和我在同一条河边行走。你不是仅仅在跟随这个讲演者，你不是在说，"是的，听上去很不错，《奥义书》也是如此，《博伽梵歌》以及其它的经典也是如此，我们理解"。一点也不是这么回事。首先我们必须要有巨大的怀疑。对吧？巨大的怀疑主义。对吧先生们？不，请不要同意。你们什么也不怀疑，你们接受一切。所以要怀疑，怀疑你自己的经验，你自己的思想，你自己的结论，怀疑它，质问它，不要接受任何书本上的任何东西，包括我的书。我只是一个过路人，他并不重要。
我们要一起探究，请看到这非常重要，我们是一起。你知道这意味着什么吗？合作建造某个东西，探究某个东西，看看什么是清楚的，什么是可疑的，什么是不清楚的。你在做。这个讲演者已经做了，但是你得做。所以我们是一起的，在一个漫长的河流上行走，你可以使这个河流变成一个非常强的激流，它会把你冲掉，把你扔到岸上，或者你能够对付它。所以这需要你的能量。对吧？它需要你的能量。
所以我们在问什么是能量？（乌鸦的叫声）那个乌鸦的呼叫是能量的一部分。对吧？树木，鸟儿，星星，月亮，太阳的升起，太阳的降落，这都是能量。对吧？或许你怀疑这一点，但是这无所谓。而你无论说什么话都需要能量，婴儿从母体出来的第一声哭叫，那一声哭是那个能量的一部分。对吧？拉小提琴，说话，结婚，性，世界上的一切都需要能量。对吧？所以我们在一起探究什么是这个能量，它的起源，它的源泉是什么，它是怎样开始的，是谁创造了这个能量？请注意，不要说，"神"，就这样来回答。我不接受神。这个讲演者没有神，这可以吗？你接受这一点吗？你会接受一切，所以这无所谓，我就继续吧。
请不要允许你自己在任何时候，接受讲演者所说的，他的书，他的讲演，他的录像，所有这些东西。那么这个能量是什么？没有这个能量我们无法存在。没有这个能量，就不会有世界上的一切，树木，巨大的能量把水拉到它的顶上去，若干吨的水。这是巨大的能量。建造一架飞机，几百人为此工作。到月球上去等等。所以我们所做的，或者不做的一切，都是能量。对吧？舞蹈者，小提琴手，画家，家庭主妇，将军，一切都需要能量。对吧？这是一个事实，无论你接受与否，都无所谓。而我们在探究：那个能量是什么？它的起源，而不仅仅是能量本身，还是接受科学家说的，能量就是物质等等。我不会详细说所有这些，因为讲演者已经和很多科学家谈论过这个问题。而宗教人士则说"神"，从而就结束了。
所以这里我们说，如果你能的话，抛弃所有这些，古人说过的，抛弃所有这些，把他们扔在路边，这样我们将一起去旅行。如果你不能把所有这些放在一边，把它们放在路边，你就没法跟上讲演者，你就没法理解讲演者。对吧？不要费劲去理解他，这无所谓。但是不幸的是，你听到很多词句，于是你说，"是的，这听上去很合理"等等等等。我们不是在跟词句打交道。词句不是那座山。"山"这个词不是那座山。克这个词不是克。你明白这一切吗？所以你的名字不是你。意识到你的名字不是你。我认为理解这点是重要的。词句不是那实际的。对吧？这点清楚了吗？这个词不是那棵树。树这个词不是那个。对吧？所以我们现在得非常小心，不要卷到词句里去。我不知道你是不是明白这一切了。对吧？我可以继续。我的朋友给我打了个手势，我的老朋友。
而我们在进入一种东西，它需要你所有的能量，所有的大脑，大脑是物质，是一百万年所积累的经验。而所有这些进化意味着能量。对吧？所以我说，我在问自己，你在为你自己提问，所以我开始问自己，是否有一种能量，它不是包含在，或者局限在知识的领域，或者是知识所激发的？你明白我的问题吗？在知识的领域内。也就是说，在思想的领域内。请不要同意。你们对所说的什么东西都同意。
所以我问自己：是否有一种能量，它不是思想所构建的，所激发，所安排的？你明白吗？思想给了你巨大的能量，每天早上9点上班，或者8点半，思想，思维给了你这个能量。我相信需要两三百人，或者三千人，来建造一个登月的火箭。对吧？所以这一切都需要能量。跟你握手，说"你好"，认出坐在那里的老朋友们。我很高兴他们找到了座位，我们能够相互看见。所以我问自己，我知道思想，思维，想过去，想未来，计划现在，这给了巨大的能量。对吧？对吧先生们？想到我必须盖一栋房子，所以我去上班，我同意他，等等等等。而你需要很大的能量来受教育。对吧？从无知，按照他们的叫法，我没有说这是无知，从你不懂数学，你逐渐学习，能量，到学院，大学，而你变成了某种什么或者别的什么。你有一个工作，而你生命的每一天都为此而去。或者你提前退休了然后死了。所以思想，请理解这一点，这是很重要的，如果你愿意的话，思想创造了这个能量，造一架飞机，想想这要多少的投入。几百人为之工作，一步一步一步，把它造出来，而他们造出了747，或者不管是什么，这是一个最奇妙的机器，从来不能坏，或者人可以让它坏。如此等等。所以思想是一个创造能量的非凡工具。对吧？我能继续吗？对吗？
如果你不是真的看到这个事实，那你就跟这没关系了。对吧？如果你不是真的看到这个事实，思想创造巨大的能量，你想变成一个富人，你在拼命工作让自己致富。对吧？你想做某种疯狂的宣传，你非常努力地工作，你加入某些团体，某些派别，某些古鲁以及所有那些事情。所以思想是一个创造思想的非凡的工具。对吧？思想创造能量。对吧？不要同意。
所以我们得非常认真地探究思想的本质。对吧？而不是给出所有那些借口。（不要管这个。我昨天摔倒受伤了，如此而已，这已经过去了。你们可以把注意力放到别的地方了。）所以思想，它规划了这个社会，它把这个世界分为亚洲与欧洲，分为共产主义者，社会主义者，资本主义者，以及民主共和主义者，所有这些都是思想创造的。这很简单。陆军，海军，空军，去屠杀，不仅是为了交通，但也为了屠杀。这是如此显然，不是吗？所以思想在我们的生活中非常重要，因为离开了思想我们什么也做不了。对吧？你从远方来到这里需要计划，调整，坐火车，飞机，坐汽车，等等，等等，所有这些都是你思想的一部分。对吧？所以什么是思想？你们自己弄清楚，不要听我的。什么是思想？没有某种程度的思想你没法生活。对吧？计划，回到你的住处，回去做你的工作等等，结婚，性以及所有事情都包含在思想过程中。那么什么是思想？讲演者对此曾经谈过很多，所以不要回到他的书本。不要说，"对，我以前曾经听到过的"。而是在这里你忘掉所有的书本，所有你阅读过的东西，因为我们必须每次都重新看待它。所以思想是基于知识。对吧？如果你没有知识，你怎么来呢，或者坐汽车，或者怎么样，你不会在这里。所以知识，记忆，思想。对吧？同意吗？而我们已经积累了巨大的知识，怎样彼此出卖，怎样彼此剥削，怎样建造桥梁，怎样创造神和庙宇，我们做了这一切。各种各样的修行场所，你知道所有那些玩意，某种形式的集中营。所以思想做了这一切，创造了陆军，海军，飞机。思想也创造了，通过知识，庙宇以及所有那些玩意。所以没有经验就没有知识，对吧？要理性，先生们。在一定范围内，理性是必要的。如果你不从理性，清晰开始，那么你就变得迷信，富于想象，得出结论，建造庙宇，以及所有那些荒谬。
所以没有经验就没有知识。科学家们每天都在增加一些新东西。请仔细跟上这些，如果你不介意的话。经验是局限的。对吧？因为我们在不断地增加，通过知识。经验，知识作为记忆存在大脑里，那就是思想的开始。对吧？我说得对吗？还是说你是对的？你怎么认为？天啊，你就没有一点感觉吗？所以经验总是局限的。对吧？因为在科学的世界里，你每天在增加越来越多的东西，在你自己的生活里你可以学更多的东西。所以经验是局限的，所以知识是局限的，记忆是局限的，所以思想是局限的。对吧？我是正常的还是神经的？而我们靠思想来生活。所以我们从来没有意识到，虽然思想可以去想象最不可思议的天堂与地狱，希腊的奥林匹克众神，埃及的众神，你们对此有所了解吗？没关系，这无所谓。
所以你的思想永远是局限的，所以你的众神，他们是思想的产物，也将是局限的。对吧？我知道你们不喜欢这个，但是我会继续。所以你的神，你的思想，无论它多么宽广，多么狭窄，所有这些都是局限的。而从这个局限中，我们试图找到能量。你明白我在说什么吗？我们在试图找到创造的起源，起点。
所以思想创造了恐惧。对吧？不对？不是吗？你不害怕两年后会发生什么，不怕吗？你不害怕失去工作，通过不了考试，没有爬上阶梯，你知道我说爬上阶梯的意思吧？更加更加更加地成功。而你害怕无法实现。你害怕无法自立，自己不够坚强。你总是依赖别人。所有这些都导致巨大的恐惧。对吧？你是否会同意这个简单的事实，我们是恐惧的人？而我们想要安全的时候，恐惧就产生了。对吧？你只是在听。好吧，我会继续。不要紧。我会继续。
恐惧毁坏爱。你无法有爱，只要有恐惧，爱就无法存在。恐惧是一种惊人的能量。而爱与恐惧没有关系。它们是完全分离的。对吧？那么什么是恐惧的起源呢？对吧？所有这些都是去理解，对爱的觉醒。如果你不理解所有这些，那就继续你现在所做的吧。满足于它，享受你自己，赚钱，地位以及所有那些东西。但是如果你想非常认真地深入到这里，你不仅得审视什么是思想，以及机器，计算机能做得非常好，你们对此一无所知。在我来印度之前，在讲演者来印度之前，我和英国的一些教授们谈论了这个。现在有些计算机，它们能够进行向前向后的思考。你们知道这意味着什么吗？它们能思考什么？你需要六点起床，所以你就得计划六点起来。对吧？而六点以后它得做什么。我相信这叫做，我忘了，它会回来的。所以机器，天啊，请理解这个，机器，也就是计算机，你知道那个笑话吗？有人在向上帝祈祷，而隔壁有一台计算机，它说，"你在向谁祈祷啊？上帝在这里。"不先生，你不知道这是多么严重。所以，架构，就是这个词。我只是最近才学到这个词，也可能是错的，也可能是对的，一个计算机可以思考过去发生的，并计划未来。而这是大脑做的。你明白吗？你计划来这里，你花了这么多钱，这么多时间，然后回去，或者继续向前。那么计算机可以向前向后地思考，这叫做架构，也许他们现在改了名称了。我会问问这里的一位专家。
所以思想创造了恐惧。对吧？思考未来，思考过去，没有能力快速适应环境的变化，等等，等等。所以思想与时间。对吧？看来你不明白。我会继续。思考明天，可能会发生什么，我妻子可能离开我，或者可能会死。我是个孤独的人。那我该怎么办？我有几个孩子，所以我最好结婚，跟某人或其他人再婚，因为至少她们能照顾我的孩子。如此等等。这是思考未来，基于过去，对吧，而这涉及到思想与时间。对吧？思考未来，未来是后天，或者明天，而思考它导致恐惧。对吧？所以时间，思想，是恐惧的要素。而我们审视了思想，审视了时间。时间是过去，现在与未来，太阳升起与落下，种下一颗种子，它会变成一株巨大的树木。那是时间。而我们还有内在时间，我现在是这样，但是我将会变成一个百万富翁。我现在贪婪，但是给我时间，我会变，或许下辈子。如此等等。所以时间与思想是恐惧的主要因素。
我在找钟。
听众：六点十分。
克：谢谢。那我讲了一小时一刻钟。
听众：四十分钟。
克：就这么多，太糟糕了。那么，让我讲完这个。请再给我二十分钟，如果你不介意的话。你介意吗？我不会拖你们太久的。你们是不是听我的，完全不会有什么不同。你会继续跟过去一模一样地生活。你不会改变，你什么也不会做，因为你陷入了一个轨道，惯例，模式。你会继续，而死亡就在那里。对吧？
所以我们在探究某种也许你不会理解的东西，但是这无所谓。时间，思想是我们生活的主要因素。内在的时间，我是这个但是我将变成那个，或者我曾经是，我将是，我是，我将是，所有这都涉及时间。而时间就是思想。它们不是两个不同的事务。他们都是运动。那么死亡有什么位置呢？你明白吗先生？死亡，以及痛苦，伤痛，焦虑，孤独，所有这些我所经历的糟糕事情，足够多了，在我的生命中有什么位置？
先生，我最好拿着你们的手表，谁给我都行。我也许会丢失它，或者你也可能丢失它。
你明白吗先生们。请非常仔细地理解这个。时间，思想是生活的中心要素。而我们在说思想与时间是恐惧的因素。这是一个事实，无论你喜欢与否。那么痛苦与时间有什么关系？你能跟上所有这些吗？这些痛苦，伤痛，焦虑，孤独，绝望以及所有这些人们经历的辛劳，这就是我们的全部生活吗？你明白我在问你什么吗？我们在一起行走。你不是仅仅坐在那里，听一个说废话的讲演者。我在问你。这是你的生活，对吧先生们，事实，不是想象。你出生了，受教育了，然后你进入学士，硕士，以及所有那些，博士，为了找工作，或者你变成一个出色的总理，或者部长，天啊，你们明白吗？这是你的生活。这是你的意识，你的意识是由你的恐惧，你的知识，你的时间组成的，你知道意识。你的知识，等等一切都在你的意识里。在这个意识里，而你就是这个意识，这个意识你一直认为是你的，我的。我的意识。你明白我的问题吗？
不要盘腿，就像刚才那样舒服地坐着就可以。不要突然变化。
你的意识，如果你仔细地检查它，不是通过评判，估量，通过你所知道的，而是仔细地检查它，那么你的意识是由它的内容组成的。对吧？你明白我在说什么的吗？你在想什么，你的传统，你的教育，有多少恐惧，你是否想换一个新的妻子，或者你是否去某个庙宇，所有这些，孤独，恐惧，这就是你。也许你认为你内在本性是神圣的，但是你仍然在思考。当你说，"对，我内心有神"的时候，这还是思想的产物。所以你的意识，这个意识就是你，不是生理上，而是心理上，内在地，你的意识，就是人类的意识。
我们仔细地讨论了这些。不要接受他说的任何东西。这个地球上的任何一个人，都经历着悲伤，痛苦，焦虑，不安定，不安全，争吵，强迫，想要这个，不想要。所有这些就是你。如果你想象你是神的降生，那是思想的一部分。对吧？思想，如我们所说，是局限的。所以你的意识，也就是你，就是整个人类。每一个人都经历这些，包括男人与女人。每一个人都经历这些，对吧？每一个人。你的邻居，你的父亲，祖父，以及世界上过去世代的人们。所以你们不是个人。这是一个震惊。不要接受它。审视它，不要说"这是胡说"，或者"这不是事实，因为《博迦梵歌》是那样说的"，或者《奥义书》是那样说的，或者《圣经》是这那样说的。这是一个事实，你，你的痛苦，你的悲伤，你的焦虑，你的孤独，你的知识，是共同的，我不想用共同这个词，它是每个人所共有的。对吧？所以你不是一个分开的灵魂，一个分开的"真我"。我知道你不喜欢这个，因为你从小就被教育要吞下任何大家公认的东西。
所以必须要从恐惧，从伤痛，从人类制造的任何东西中解放出来。必须有自由，你明白吗，而不仅仅是词句。"印度必须从世界上解放出来"。这是废话。没有人能够自己生活，他们需要一个朋友，他们需要有人帮助。
所以，我们在试图探究，搞清楚，什么是爱。对吧？我们在说，只要还有任何形式的恐惧，生理上的，执著的恐惧，失去的恐惧，任何类型的恐惧，另一个就无法存在。如果有任何形式的执著，另一个就无法存在，另一个是指爱。所以我们要去探究，如果时间允许的话。那么看到这一切，从开始，从婴儿到成人，看到世界的样子，探究什么是死亡，为什么我们如此惧怕死亡？你明白吗？你知道死亡意味着什么吗？你们没有见过几十个人被杀害，或者受伤，你们看见过吗？没有？你们是奇怪的人们，还是什么？属于另一个星球？我们看见过死亡。我们从未很深入的探究什么是死亡？这是一个非常重要的问题，正如什么是生活一样。你明白吗？我们说了生活就是所有这些垃圾。我们说了生活就是知识，学问，你知道，所有这些东西，每天九点或十点去上班，争吵。战斗。想要这个，不想要，你明白吗？我们知道生活是怎么回事。对吧？一系列的行动导致一系列的反应以及悲伤，痛苦，这就是我们的生活。那么如果这就是生活，这是事实，不要说，"生活是非常美妙的"，这就是生活，争吵，离婚，战斗。但是我们从未认真探究过什么是死亡。你明白我在说什么吗？我们知道什么是生活，如果你诚实的话。你可以想象任何你喜欢的事情，但是这就是生活。你可以想象天堂就在那里，而神在以某种方式看护着你，任何的祈祷都会被回应以及所有那些垃圾。至少对我是如此，对于讲演者。但是我们从未认真探究什么是死亡。是这样吧先生？
什么是死亡？死亡一定是件非凡的事。不是吗？非凡的事。一切都被从你这里拿走了：你的执著，你的金钱，你的妻子，你的孩子，你的国家，你的迷信，你的古鲁，你的神，一切都没有了。对吧？你也许希望把这些带到另一个世界，但是你无法带走你的金钱，你的银行账户。对吧？你的执著，你的古鲁，你的庙宇。你可以发明那里的庙宇，不是在你死了之后，而是在你活着的时候，你能发明所有的世界上的神。但是当死亡来临时，它说，"你看，你没法带走任何东西，你所有的执著，所有的感情，所有的伤痛，所有那些你在生命中收集的东西，你没法带走，没有这个空间"。对吧？所以死亡说，"请完全舍弃"。对吧？这就是死亡来临的时候所要发生的。你无法依赖任何人，没有任何可依赖的，对吧？你明白这点了吗？你可以相信你愿意相信的，下辈子再投生，这是个非常令人安慰的想法，但是它可能不是事实，它可能是你的想象，你的渴望，你的"我不能离开我的妻子"，我给我的儿子留下了这么多，我要在下辈子遇到他，这样就可以告诉他等等。
所以我们在试图搞清楚死亡意味着什么，在活着的时候搞清楚，不是去自杀，我不是在说那样的废话。我想搞清楚死亡意味着什么。不是跳河，我不是指那样，或者去喜玛拉雅山，然后死在那里。但是我想自己搞清楚死亡意味着什么。这意味着我能否从人所创造的一切，包括我自己当中，完全解放出来。你知道有一个意大利的笑话，很抱歉重复一下：整个世界都会死去，也许包括我自己！所以我想搞清楚当死亡说"够了"的时候，真正的事实是怎样的。对吧？你想搞清楚吗？不，你真的想搞清楚吗？
死亡意味着什么？放弃一切。对吗？不是牺牲，死亡，感受，不要用这些愚蠢的名词。它用一把非常非常非常锐利的剃刀，把你与你的执著，你的神，你的迷信，你对下辈子享受的欲望等等割断。所以我要去搞清楚什么是死亡，因为它与生命一样的重要。那么我怎么能搞清楚呢，实际地，而不是理论性地，不是去评判它，然后形成各种组织，你知道，所有那些游戏？我是想要实际地搞清楚，就像你想要搞清楚，我在为你说，所以不要睡着了。死亡意味着什么？你非常健康，身体运转得很好，没有疾病，就像克，九十一岁了，他没有病，没有痛苦等等，因为我看过专家，医生。那么死亡意味着什么？请问自己这个问题，不要听我的。你在年轻时，或者很老的时候，这个问题总是在那。对吧？它总是在问，要求你回答死亡意味着什么。你们对这些有兴趣吗？有吗？啊，不，不要摇头。你知道它的意思？完全自由，完全不执著于人类所制造的一切，或者你制造的一切，完全自由。没有执著，没有神，没有未来，没有过去。你不知道这一切意味着什么。你看不到它的美，它的非凡，它不可思议的力量。所以在活着的时候去死亡。你知道这意味着什么？在你活着的时候，你每时每刻都在死亡。这样在你的一生中，你不执著于任何事情，你的妻子，你的父亲，你的母亲，你的祖母，你的国家，没有任何东西，因为这就是死亡的意思。对吧？也许你会希望有下辈子。这些都太容易，太简单，太神经了。
所以生命就是死亡。你明白吗？生命意味着每天你都在抛弃你所执著的一切。你崇拜的，你思考的，你不思考的，你的神，你的国家，没有一样东西。你能这样做吗？你能这样做吗？一个非常简单的事实，但是却有着非凡的意义。于是每一天都是新的一天。你明白吗？每一天你都在死亡与再生。啊，你不明白。这里面有巨大的生命力，能量。你明白吗？因为你没有任何恐惧。没有任何可以伤害，被伤害的，它不存在。思想是局限的，所以它不重要，因为我得在五分钟内起床出去，但是时间，思想，恐惧，执著，以及所有人类制造的东西，都需要完全抛弃。这就是死亡的意义。上帝也许在天堂等着拯救你，这一切听上去是如此的可笑。所以你能这样做吗？你会试试吗？你会做一些试验吗？不是一天，而是每天。不，先生，你做不了。你的大脑没有这个训练。你的大脑已经被如此沉重地局限，被你的教育，你的传统，你的书本，你的教授们，所有那一切。这就要求我们搞清楚什么是爱，爱与死亡是一起的。因为死亡说，自由，不执著，没有什么是你能携带的。而爱说，没有语言能够表达。所以爱只能在自由中才能存在，不是说为了一个新的女孩而摆脱你的妻子，或者新的丈夫，而是那个完全自由的感觉，巨大的力量，生命力，能量。
下一次我们会讲宗教与冥想。我想这可以吧。我很抱歉只有三次讲演，但是讲演者没法再继续了。你明白吗？他九十一岁了，这应该够了。 |
发表于 2009-11-3 08:58
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