标题: The real revolution 4/真正的革命4——一凡译 [打印本页] 作者: Sue 时间: 2010-9-13 15:18 标题: The real revolution 4/真正的革命4——一凡译
K: I should think 克：我认为
one of our greatest problems in life 我们生活中最重大的问题之一
must be, surely, 必然是，肯定是
knowing that our minds deteriorate, 知道我们的心灵在退化，
decline as one grows older, 当人年长时，心智在衰退，
or 或者
deteriorate even when one is quite young 甚至当人相当年轻时，便在退化
- being a specialist along a certain line, - 比如作为某方面的专家，
and being unaware totally 并且完全没有意识到
of the whole complex area of life - 生命这整个复杂的领域 -
it must be a great problem 这必定是一个重大的问题，
to find out whether it is at all possible 即发现究竟是否可能
to stop this deterioration 停止这个退化过程，
so that the mind is always fresh, 这样心智才能总是鲜活、
young, clear, decisive. 年轻、明澈、果断。
And is it at all possible to end this decline? 究竟是否可能结束这种衰退？
This evening, if I may, 今晚，如果可以，
I would like to go into that, 我想深入这个问题，
because to me, meditation 因为对我来说，冥想
is 就是
freeing the mind from the known. 将心智从已知中解脱。
Q: The talks and writings of Krishnamurti cannot be limited 旁白：克里希那穆提的谈话和著作无法被局限于
to a single category, such as philosophy or religion. 某个单独的领域，比如哲学或宗教。
Unquestionably, Krishnamurti is one of the more challenging 毫无疑问，克里希那穆提是我们时代最有挑战性
and creative men of our time, for his profound insights 和创造性的人之一，因为他深邃的洞察力
into the realities of the human condition. 直入人类处境的现实。
This series of 8 programs represents the first time 这八集系列节目呈现的是
that Krishnamurti has permitted his talks to be filmed. 克里希那穆提首次允许他的讲话被录制。
In this talk, the subject of which is meditation, 这次讲话的主题是冥想，
Krishnamurti continues 克里希那穆提继续
his exploration of the real revolution, 探索那真正的革命，
a radical change in ourselves. 我们内在的一次彻底转变。
K: The question then arises: is it at all possible 克：然后问题就是：究竟是否可能
to end this decaying process of this brain, 结束大脑的这个衰败过程，
as well as of the mind, the whole, total entity? 还有心智、这个整体、整个存在体的衰败？
And also if it's possible to keep the physique, the body, 并且是否可能使体格、身体保持
extraordinarily alive, alert, energetic, and so on. 极其鲜活、警觉、充满能量，等等。
So that seems to me a great issue, 所以那对我来说是个很大的议题，
and therefore a great challenge to find out. 因而把这点弄清楚也是一次巨大的挑战。
Now, the inquiry into this, 现在，对这个问题的探询，
not only verbally but non-verbally, 不仅是语言上，而且是非语言上的
the inquiry, the examination into this, 探询，对这个问题的审视，
is meditation. 就是冥想。
Because that word itself is so misused. 因为那个词本身被过度滥用了。
There are so many methods of meditation. 有如此之多的冥想方法。
If we understand one, we shall understand the total systems 如果我们了解了其中一个，我们就会了解冥想的整个体系
and the ways of meditation. 和方法。
But the central issue that we're going 但是今晚我们将一起探讨的
to talk over together this evening is this: 中心议题是：
that whether the mind 是否心智
can ever rejuvenate itself, 能够把自己变得年轻，
whether it can become fresh, young, unafraid. 它能否变得清新、年轻、无惧。
The fact is that there is deterioration. 事实是，存在着退化。
And if one looks at it and translates that deterioration, 如果你看着它并诠释那种退化，
or tries to transcend it or go beyond it 或者试着升华它或超越它，
in terms of personal inclination, 通过个人的倾向、
temperament, and so on, 脾气等方式，
it becomes a very shoddy affair. 那么它就成了一件非常鄙陋的事情。
But if one observes it, 但是如果你观察它，
as you would observe a tree, a sunset, 就像你观察一棵树、一次日落、
light on the water, the outlines of a blue hill, just to observe it, 水面的光、一座蓝色小山的轮廓，只是去观察它，
just to observe the process of what is actually taking place 只是去观察我们每个人内在
in each one of us, 实际上正在发生的过程，
then we will go together. 那么我们就能共同前进。
And if you cannot do this, there will be gaps 而如果你做不到这些，就会有隔阂，
and we'll not be able to take the road together. 我们就不能一起踏上这条路。
Because we are concerned with 因为我们关心的是
the whole, total process of living, 生活的整体，这整个过程，
and this total process of living, as one observes, 而这生活的整个过程，就像你观察到的那样，
is always creating an image - 总是在制造着形象 -
about ourselves, about others, 关于我们自己的、关于他人的、
image through experience, 通过经验得来的形象，
image through conflict - and are we aware that there is 通过冲突得来的形象 -而我们是否意识到
an image in each one of us, about ourselves? 我们每个人的内心都有一个关于我们自己的形象？
And that image begins to be more and more strong 那个形象开始变得越来越强大，
and more and more crystallised, 也越来越具体，
and then there is the end of it all. 然后，这一切就都结束了。
So is one aware of it? 所以，一个人是否意识到了这点？
And if one is aware of it, 如果人意识到了这点，
who is the entity that is aware of the image? 那么那个意识到这个形象的实体又是谁？
You understand the issue? 你理解这个问题吗？
Is the image different from the image-maker? 形象是否有别于形象制造者？
Or the image-making and the image are the same. 还是形象制造与形象本身是一回事。
Because unless one understands this factor very clearly, 因为除非你非常清晰地理解了这个因素，
what we're going into will not be clear. 否则我们将谈及的就不会清晰。
You understand? 你明白吗？
I perceive I have an image about myself: 我发现我有一个关于自己的形象：
I am this and that, I am a great man, 我是这个和那个，我是个伟人，
or a little man, or my name is known, not known 或是个微不足道的人，或者我的名字为人所知，或不知
- you know, all the verbal structure about oneself, - 你知道，所有关于自己的语言结构，
and the non-verbal structure about oneself, 和关于自己的非言语结构，
conscious or hidden. 不管是有意识的还是隐藏的。
And I realise that image exists. 而我意识到了那个形象的存在。
If at all I become aware, watchful, 如果我变得彻底觉察、警醒，
I know there is this image, it's being formed all the time. 我就会知道有这个形象，它一直在生成着。
And the observer who is aware of that image 而意识到那个形象的观者
feels himself different from the image. 感到他自己不同于那个形象。
Isn't that what's taking place? 那不正是发生着的事情吗？
Right? 对吗？
I hope we're making this clear. 我希望我们澄清了这一点。
And the observer then begins to either 然后观者要么开始
say to himself that this image is the factor 对他自己说这形象是那个
that brings about a deterioration, 带来恶化的因素，
therefore I must destroy the image 因此我必须毁掉此形象，
in order to achieve a greater result, 以实现更伟大的结果，
to make the mind young, fresh and all the rest of it, 使心智年轻、鲜活，等等诸如此类，
and he struggles, he explains, he justifies, 然后他挣扎、他解释、他辩护
or adds, strives to alter it to a better image. 或加点什么，努力将它变成一个更好的形象。
And this is very important to understand. 理解这点很重要。
And effort, struggle, in different ways, either physically 各种形式的努力、挣扎，不管是身体上的，
or psychologically, as competition, 还是心理上的，表现为竞争、
as ambition, aggression, 野心、侵略、
violence, pride, 暴力、骄傲，
accumulated resentment, and so on, 累积的憎恨，等等，
is one of the factors of deterioration. 是恶化的因素之一。
So when one realises that 所以当人认识到
the observer is the image-maker, 观者即形象制造者，
then our whole process of thinking 那么我们的整个思考过程
undergoes a tremendous change. 就经历了一次巨大的转变。
And so the image is the known. 所以形象即为已知。
So, as long as the brain, as long as the whole mind 所以，只要大脑，只要整个心智
- in which is the brain and the body, - 包括了大脑和身体，
the whole mind - 这整个心智 -
functions within the field of the image, 在形象的领域内运作，
which is the known, 也就是已知的领域内，
of which one may be conscious or not, 不管人是否意识到了这点，
in that field 在那个领域中
is the factor of deterioration. 就有着恶化的因素。
Right? 对吗？
Please don't accept it as an idea 请不要将它作为一个想法来接受，
which you will think about when you go home. 当你回家时，你会思考这个说法。
You won't anyhow, but 你无论如何都不会，
I mean, here we are doing it, 我的意思是，这里我们正在这么做，
taking the thing together, therefore you must do it now, 一起在做这件事，所以你必须现在就做，
not when you go home and say, 'Well I've taken notes 而不是当你回到家再说：“嗯，我已记了笔记，
and I've understood it, I'll think about it.' 我已理解了它，我会思考它。”
Don't take notes because that doesn't help at all. 不要记笔记，因为那根本帮不上忙。
So the question arises: is it possible 那么问题出来了：是否可能
to empty the mind of the known? 空掉已知的心智？
You understand? 你理解吗？
Am I making myself clear? 我表述清楚了吗？
One must have asked this question vaguely 人一定已经模糊地问过这个问题
or with a purpose because 或者带着一个目的问过，因为
one suffers, one has anxieties, 人受苦，人有焦虑，
whether it's possible to go beyond, 是否可能超越这些，
or one has vague hints of it. 或许人对此有些模糊的暗示。
Now we are asking it, we are asking it 现在我们在问这个问题，我们把它
as a question which must be answered, 作为一个必须被回答的问题，
as a challenge which must be responded to. 作为一次必须被回应的挑战。
And this challenge is not an outward challenge 这个挑战不是外部的挑战
but a psychological, inward challenge. 而是心理上的、内在的挑战。
And 并且
we're going to find out whether it is possible 我们将弄清是否可能
to empty the mind of the known. 空掉已知的心智。
This emptying of the mind is meditation. 空掉头脑就是冥想。
And one must go into this question of meditation. 而人必须深入冥想这个问题。
I mean, explain it a little bit. 我的意思是，稍微来解释一下。
All the Asiatic people are conditioned by this word. 所有的亚洲人都被这个词所束缚。
So-called religious, serious people 所谓宗教的、严肃的人
are conditioned by this word, 都被这个词所束缚，
because through meditation they hope to find 因为他们希望透过冥想去发现
something which is not... 那不是...
...something beyond mere daily existence. ...那超越日常存在的东西。
And to find it they have various systems, 而为了找到它，他们有各种体系，
very, very subtle or very crude, like the Zen. 那体系非常非常微妙或者非常粗糙，比如禅。
And also 而且
in that so-called meditative system is concentration, 在那个所谓的冥想体系中有专注，
fixing the mind on one idea 将心智固定于一个观念上
or one thought or one symbol, and so on. 或者一个想法或者一个象征物上，等等。
And also there are various forms of stimulation, 而且还有各种形式的刺激，
forcing oneself, 强迫自己，
stimulating oneself, and that is to expand 刺激自己，而那就是不断地
consciousness more and more, 扩张意识，
through will, through effort, through concentration, 通过意志力、通过努力、通过专注、
through determination, to force, force, force. 通过决心来强迫、强迫、强迫。
And by extending this consciousness 而通过扩张这个意识
one hopes to arrive at a different state 人希望到达一个不同的状态
or a different dimension, or reach a point 或一个不同的维度，或到达
which the conscious mind cannot. 有意识的心智无法到达的一个点。
Or one takes many, many drugs, 或者人吃了很多、很多药，
including the latest, LSD and so on, so on. 包括最新产的、迷幻药，等等等等。
That gives, for the moment, 那暂时地给予了
tremendous stimulation to the whole system. 整个有机体以巨大的刺激。
And in that state 而在那个状态中
one experiences extraordinary things. 人会经历某些非同寻常的东西。
Extraordinary things through stimulation, 通过刺激产生的非同寻常的东西，
through concentration, 通过专注、
through discipline, through starvation, fasting. 通过戒律、通过饥饿、禁食产生的。
If one fasts for some days one has peculiar... 如果人禁食几天，就会有特别的...
obviously, peculiar things happening. 显然，特别的事情会发生。
And one takes drugs 而如果你服用药物，
and for the moment it gives you... 它会暂时性地给你...
makes the body extraordinarily sensitive, 使你的身体分外敏感，
you see colours 你看到的色彩
which are most extraordinary, 显得非凡无比，
which you've never seen before. 你以前从未见过。
You see everything so clearly, there is no space 你将每种东西都看得如此清楚，没有空间隔在
between you and that thing which you see. 你与你所看到的事物之间。
And this goes on 而这种事情
in various forms throughout the world. 在全世界以各种形式发生着。
The repetition of words, 重复词语，
like in the Catholic, or in those prayers 像在天主教中，或那些祈祷中，
which all make the mind a little calm, quiet 都能使心灵有些许平静、安宁
- obviously which is a trick. - 显然，那不过是个把戏。
If you keep on repeating, repeating, you get so dull, 如果你继续重复、重复，你就变得如此迟钝，
obviously you go to sleep and you think 显然你睡去了而你却认为
that's a very quiet mind. 那是个非常安静的心灵。
But that's not meditation. 但那不是冥想。
So one can brush all that aside. 所以人要把那一切都扫除。
Even though one is committed to it, 尽管你已经对此做出了承诺，
we can throw all that out of the window. 但我们还是可以把那一切都扔出窗外。
And as you are listening I hope you'll throw it out, 而当你听的时候，我希望你把它扔掉，
because we are going into something 因为我们在深入某种
much deeper than this invention. 比这个发明更有深度的东西。
One can put all that aside, 人能将那一切都放在一边，
because the more one practises a discipline, 因为一个人越多地进行某种训练，
the more the mind becomes dull, mechanised. 心智就变得越迟钝、越机械化。
And that mechanising routine, process, 那个机械化的例行公事、过程，
makes the mind somewhat quiet, 能使心智有些许安宁，
but it is not the quietness of 但那不是
tremendous energy, understanding. 巨大的能量和了解。
Then we can proceed to inquire 然后我们可以继续探询
whether it is at all possible 究竟是否可能
to free the mind from the known. 让心智从已知中解脱。
Not only the known of 不但是
a thousand years but also of yesterday, 一千年的已知，而且是昨天的已知、
the memory, which is memory. 记忆，也就是记忆。
Which doesn't mean that I forget the road, 那不意味着我忘记了路，
the way to the house that we live in, or technology. 回到我住的房子的路，或者技术。
That, obviously, one must have. 显然，人必须具备那些。
That's essential, otherwise we can't live. 那很重要，否则我们无法生存。
But we are talking of things at a deeper level, 但我们谈的是更深层的东西，
the deeper level where the image is always active. 在这更深的层次上形象总是活跃的。
The image, which is the known, is functioning all the time. 形象，即已知，一直在运作。
And whether that image and the maker of the image, 而那个形象和形象的制造者，
which is the observer, 即观者，
whether it is possible to empty the mind of that. 是否可能将心智中的那些东西空掉。
And emptying of that, of the known, is meditation. 空掉那些，空掉已知，就是冥想。
I can only understand you 只有当我对你不抱有形象时，
when I have no image about you. 我才能了解你。
But if you are a friend, a relation, and so on, 但如果你是一个朋友、一种关系，等等，
husband, wife, and all the rest of it, I have an image. 丈夫、妻子，等等诸如此类，我就有一个形象。
And the image I have, 而我有的这个形象，
and you have about me and I have about you, 你有的关于我的形象和我有的关于你的形象，
those images have relationship. 那些形象之间有关系。
And all our relationship is based on that. 而我们所有的关系都基于那些形象。
One sees very clearly 一个人非常清晰地看到
that only when the image doesn't interfere 只有当形象不干涉其中时
- image as knowledge, thought, emotion, all the rest of it - - 作为知识、思想、感情等等的诸如此类的形象 -
interfere, then I can look, 没有它们的干扰时，我才能看，
I can hear, I can understand. 我才能听、我才能理解。
It has happened to all of us, 这曾突然发生在我们所有人身上，
when suddenly - you discuss, argue, - 当你讨论、说明、
point out, and so on - 指出，等等时 -
suddenly your mind becomes quiet and you say, 突然你的心智变得安静了，你说，
'By Jove, I've understood.' “天哪，我理解了。”
That understanding is an action, not an idea. 那个了解是一个行动，而不是一个想法。
Right? 对吗？
So, there is 所以，有
understanding, action, only action 了解、行动，只有另一种意义上的行动
in a different sense than the action that we know, 而非我们所知的那种行动，
which is the action of the image of the known. 那是已知的形象的行动。
We are talking of an understanding 我们在探讨一种了解，
which is an action 也就是行动，
when the mind is completely quiet, 当心智彻底安静，
in which understanding as action takes place. 此时，作为行动的了解就发生了。
Right? 对吗？
So, there is understanding and action only 所以，只有当心智完全安静时
when the mind is completely quiet. 才有了解和行动。
And that quiet, still mind is not induced 而那个安静的、宁静的心智不由
by any discipline, 任何戒律、
by any effort. 任何努力所引发。
And 而
meditation then is 冥想就是
- which one can do when you are - 你可以做到这点，当你
sitting in a bus, walking the street 坐在一辆公车上，走在街上
or washing dishes and God knows what else - 或洗盘子时都可以，天知道还有别的什么时候 -
and meditation has nothing whatsoever to do with 而冥想无论如何都与
breathing and all that. 呼吸和所有那些无关。
There is nothing mysterious about it. 它并没有什么神秘的。
The mystery of life is beyond all this. 生命的神秘是超越那一切。
Beyond the image, beyond effort, 超越形象、超越努力、
beyond the centralised, egotistic, 超越自我中心的、自我的、
subjective, self-centred activity 主观的、自我中心的活动，
there is a vast field of something 某种东西有着广阔的领域，
which can never be found through the known. 永远无法通过已知来发现。
And the emptying of the mind 而心智的清空
can only take place, 只能非语言地
non-verbally, 发生在
only when there is no observer as the observed. 没有作为所观之物的观者之时。
All this demands tremendous attention, awareness, 所有这些都需要巨大的注意力、觉察，
an awareness 一种
which is not concentration. 不是专注的觉察。
Just to observe without choosing. 只是毫无选择地观察。
Choice takes place only when there is confusion, 只有困惑存在时，才会产生选择，
not when there is clarity. 而不是清晰时。
So, awareness 所以，觉察
takes place only when there is no choice, 只能在没有选择时发生，
or when you are aware of all the conflicting choices, 或当你觉察到所有互相冲突的选择、
conflicting desires, the strains 冲突的欲望、焦虑时
- just to observe all this movement of contradiction - - 只是观察矛盾的所有运动 -
and knowing that the observer is the observed. 并了解到观者即所观之物。
And therefore in that process there is no choice at all, 因此在那个过程中根本没有选择，
but only watching 'what is.' 只有观察“现在如何”。
And that's entirely different from concentration. 而那完全不同于专注。
And that awareness brings a quality of attention 那觉察就带来了注意力的品质，
in which there is neither the observer nor the observed. 其中既无观者，也无所观之物。
And this emptying of the mind, 这种对心智
with all the experiences it has had, is meditation. 及其所有经验的清空，就是冥想。
And that can be emptied only, all the experiences, 而清空只能发生在当所有的经验，
when each experience... 当每个经验...
one becomes aware of it, sees the whole content of it, 人觉察到它，看到它的全部内容，
without choice, and therefore it goes, it passes by. 而毫无选择，因此它就消失了，它就过去了。
Therefore there is no mark of that experience, 因而没有留下对那个经验的标记，
as a wound, as something to remember, 没有作为一种伤痛、作为一种能被记起的事物
to recognise and keep. 来认出并保留的东西。
So meditation is a very strenuous process, 所以冥想是一个非常艰苦的过程，
it's not just a thing to do 那不仅仅是一件
for old ladies or men who have nothing to do. 老妇人或无事可做的人才做的事情。
This demands tremendous attention right through. 这自始至终需要巨大的注意力。
Then you'll find for yourself 然后你自己就会发现
- no, there is no question of experience, - 不，没有经验的问题，
there is no finding. 没有发现。
Then when the mind is completely quiet, 然后当心智完全安静时，
without any form of suggestion, as hypnotism, 无需任何形式的建议，比如催眠，
or following a method, 或者遵循一种方法就能彻底安静，
when the mind is completely quiet, then 当心智完全安静时，然后
there is a quality and a different dimension 就有一种品质和一个不同的维度
of which thought can never possibly 是思想永远不可能
imagine or experience. 想象或经历的。
Then it's beyond all search. 它超越所有的找寻。
There is then no seeking. 然后再没有了追寻。
A mind that is full of light does not seek. 充满光的心灵不追寻。
It's only the dull, confused mind 只有迟钝的、困惑的心智
that's always seeking and hoping to find. 在不断寻找并希望找到。
What it finds is the result of its own confusion. 它找到的不过是它自身困惑的结果。
Look, please, if you understand one question 请看，如果你理解了一个问题，
you have understood all the questions. 你便理解了所有问题。
And so what is important in all this 所以在这一切中重要的是
- in asking questions and the answers, - 在所问的问题和答案中，
or the explanations - 或解释中 -
is 是
that the explanation has no value at all. 解释根本没有价值。
What has value is 有价值的是
how you ask the question 你如何问问题
and what you're expecting out of that question. 和你从那个问题中期望些什么。
If you are attentive of what you are asking 如果你全神贯注于你的问题之中，
you will see that question is answered 你就会发现问题被毫不费力地
without any difficulty. 解答了。
Therefore there is no teacher, 因此，没有老师，
you are everything yourself, 你自己就是一切，
both the teacher, the pupil, you know, everything. 既是老师，也是学生，你知道，一切。
That gives you tremendous freedom to inquire. 那给了你巨大的自由去探寻。
Q: This has been the 4th of 8 programs 旁白：这是八集节目中的第四集，
presenting the talks of Krishnamurti. 呈现了克里希那穆提的讲话。
Subsequent programs in this series are titled: 这个系列中接下来的节目叫做：
'What Is Love?' “爱是什么？”
'Questioning' “质疑”、
'Living and Death' “生与死”
and 'The End of Conflict.' 和“冲突的终结。”
