标题: The real revolution 8/真正的革命8——一凡译 [打印本页] 作者: Sue 时间: 2010-11-10 21:58 标题: The real revolution 8/真正的革命8——一凡译
K: And most of us, I presume, 克：我认为，我们大多数人
have come here this morning, or go to church, 今天早晨来到这里，或去教堂，
or anything, because our life is so monotonous, 或做任何事，是因为我们的生活是如此单调、
so lonely, so utterly meaningless, 如此孤独，如此毫无意义，
and we want to find something 于是我们想找到某种东西，
that will be deeply gratifying, deeply它能让我们深深地感到满足，深深地
that will bring about deep content. 带来深切的满足感。
So, 那么，
why are we discontented, and with what? 为什么我们不满足，以及对什么不满足？
Please answer the question to yourselves. 请你自己来回答这个问题。
I will, the speaker will go into it 我将，讲话者将探讨这个问题，
but you have to answer it for yourself. 但是你必须自己来回答。
Q: The talks and the writings of Krishnamurti have, 旁白：克里希那穆提的谈话与文字
over the past four decades, given him a unique position 在过去的四十年中，赋予了他一个独特的位置，
as one of the more challenging and authentic voices of our time. 即我们时代最具挑战性和真实的声音之一。
The series, of which this is the concluding program, 这是一个系列节目的最后一集，这个系列
represents the first time that Krishnamurti 展现的是克里希那穆提第一次
has allowed his talks to be filmed. 允许他的谈话被录制。
K: We are discontented through comparison, 克：通过比较，我们不满足，
we are discontented 我们不满足于
to bring about a change in 'what is', 对“现在如何”带来一次转变，
and we are discontented 我们不满足
because we don't know what to do with 'what is.' 因为我们不知该如何处理“现在如何”。
And... 而且...
being discontented with 'what is' 因为对“现在如何”不满，
we develop the idea of 'what should be', 我们就发明出“应当如何”的想法，
the ideal, the utopia, the gods, 理想、乌托邦、上帝、
the heaven, and so on and on and on. 天堂，等等等等。
So 所以
our action then is based on an idea, 我们的行动就基于一个想法，
and the approximation to that idea is action, 然后就有了接近那个想法的行动，
isn't it? 不是吗？
I am discontented with 'what is' 我对“现在如何”不满
and I want to be something different from 'what is' 而我想要不同于“现在如何”的东西
- the idea. - 那是个想法。
The idea being rational or irrational, 合理或不合理的想法，
thought put together 思想拼凑出
as an idea or an ideal, 一个想法或一个理想，
and I have that ideal, 而我有那个理想，
and according to that ideal I live. 并根据那个理想生活。
Which is called action. 这就被称为行动。
And... 而...
there is conflict between 'what is' and 'what should be.' “现在如何”和“应当如何”之间有冲突。
And in that conflict we are caught. 我们就陷入那个冲突中。
And all our questions, demands, searching, is that, 我们所有的问题、要求、追寻都夹在
between 'what is' and 'what should be'. “现在如何”和“应当如何”之间。
And the greater the tension between “现在如何”与“应当如何”之间的
'what is' and 'what should be', 关系越紧张，
the greater the neurosis. 神经官能症就越严重。
And also greater 而这种神经质会更严重，
if one has the capacity to express that conflict verbally 如果一个人有用言语表达那个冲突的能力
- in the theatre, in music, in art, - 通过戏剧、音乐、艺术
in so many ways, literature and so on. 等如此众多的方式，还有文学等等。
And being discontent with 'what is' 因为对“现在如何”不满，
we invent gods, 我们就发明了上帝，
which becomes our religion. 而这变成了我们的宗教。
That is the escape we have from 'what is.' 那是我们对“现在如何”的逃避。
And... 那么...
is it possible to radically change 'what is'? 是否可能彻底改变“现在如何”？
That is the real search, not the other. 那才是真正的探寻，而其他的不是。
The other is no search at all. 其他的根本不是探寻。
Is it possible to totally bring about a mutation in 'what is'? 是否可能彻底地对“现在如何”带来一次突变？
And to bring, to go into that, 而要带来这改变，深入其中，
to go into this question of bringing about 深入这个带来
a total revolution in 'what is', “现在如何”的彻底革命的问题，
one must have an extraordinary sense of awareness. 人必须有非凡的觉察感。
You know, to be aware, what it means 你知道，觉察，它意味着什么
- to be aware of the trees, - 对树觉察，
of the blue sky through the trees, 透过树觉察到蓝天，
of those hills beyond, 觉察到远处的山丘，
of that noise of a motor, of the colours 觉察到摩托车的噪音，觉察到前面的
that are there in front - 那些颜色 -
just to be aware. 只是觉察。
And to be aware so choicelessly 而觉察是如此毫无选择，
you know very well that you can't change it. 你非常明白你改变不了它。
You can't change the mountains, 你改变不了群山，
you can't change the beauty of that sky. 你改变不了那天空的美。
But... 但是...
when we are aware of 'what is' we want to transform it, 当我们意识到“现在如何”时，我们想转化它，
we are endlessly active about it. 我们没完没了地热衷于此。
And there begins sorrow. 于是悲伤开始了。
Because with the ending of sorrow 因为随着悲伤的结束
is the beginning of wisdom. 就有了智慧的开始。
And the ending of sorrow is the understanding of 'what is.' 而悲伤的结束是对“现在如何”的了解。
And the understanding of 'what is' can only come 而对“现在如何”的了解只有在
when you observe, when you are aware, 你观察、你觉察、
when the mind is incapable of wanting to change 'what is.' 在心智不会想改变“现在如何”时才能到来。
Which doesn't mean it is satisfied with 'what is.' 这并不意味着它满足于“现在如何”。
So, 于是，
one has freed the mind, or the mind has freed itself from this... 一个人解放了心智，或者心智将自己从这种...
everlasting search. That's finished. 无尽的追寻中解脱了出来。那些结束了。
And that means a tremendous burden off of one's shoulder. 那意味着从肩上卸下了一个无比沉重的负担。
Then, being free, you can look. 然后，自由了，你能够去看。
And to look you need great energy. 而去看，你需要巨大的能量。
And that energy comes only 那能量只能在
when there is this awareness without conflict, 有毫无冲突的觉察、
this awareness in which there is no conflict of any kind, 其中没有任何形式的冲突
just observation. 而只有观察的觉察时才能到来。
And there will be conflict only as long as there is 只有存在着观察者与所观之物，即“现在如何”，
the observer and the observed, which is 'what is.' 冲突才会产生。
But 'what is' is the observer. 但“现在如何”就是观察者。
Please don't learn phrases 请不要学这些词语
but see the actual fact. 而是看到真切的事实。
Then you will find 然后你会发现
that... ...
where there is the observer 有观察者的地方
- the centre, the censor, the experiencer, - 即那个中心、检查者、经验者，
the entity that is always creating the division 那个总是在观察者与所观之物之间
between the observed and the observer. 制造分别的实体。
And as long as there is an observer 而只要有观察者
there is no freedom. 就没有自由。
You know, every object, 你知道，每个物体，
like this microphone, 像这个麦克风，
creates a space round itself, and is in space. 都在自己周围创造了一个空间，并存在于空间中。
Isn't it? 不是吗？
The object. 这物体。
And not only outwardly, 不仅从外在，
but an object inwardly - as the me, 而且在内心的一个物体- 作为我，
as the experiencer, as the I, as the thinker - 作为经验者、作为我、作为思考者 -
that centre creates a space in consciousness. 那个中心在意识中制造出一个空间。
This space in consciousness is always limited, 意识中的这个空间总是有限的，
because there is always the centre. 因为总是有个中心。
Right? 对吗？
When we expand this space 当我们从中心
from the centre, 扩展这个空间，
and however much you may expand, 不论你能扩展多远，
it will always have a border, a frontier, 它总会有个边界、有个界限，
and therefore that space 因此那个空间
is always psychologically limited, 在心理上总是受限的，
and therefore there is no freedom in that space. 所以那个空间中没有自由。
And... 并且...
that centre, that observer is obviously memory 那个中心，那个观察者显然就是记忆
- memory of what has been, - 对曾经如何的记忆，
whether of yesterday or a thousand years. 不论是昨天的，还是一千年前的。
That centre is the tradition, 那中心就是传统，
is the conditioned state 是受限的状态，
which has been put together by time, 是由时间拼凑成的，
both chronologically and psychologically. 包括物理时间和心理时间。
That centre 那个中心
is the accumulation of knowledge, experience. 是知识、经验的积累。
That centre is always the past 那中心始终是过去
- you understand? - - 你理解吗？-
therefore that centre is not a living thing, 因此那中心不是一个活生生的东西，
it is a dead memory of what has been. 它是对曾经如何的僵死记忆。
And when it creates a space, 而当它制造出一个空间，
whether it is very, very, very small 不论围绕着它自己的那个空间
round itself - as most of us do, 是否非常非常狭小- 就像我们大多数人那样，
concerned with itself endlessly, 无止境地关心自己，
its activities, its propositions, its ideas - 关心自己的活动、自己的主张、自己的想法 -
it's a shabby little thing round itself. 那都是围绕着自己的一件鄙陋渺小的事情。
And that can expand, but however much it may expand 而那些东西能延伸，但无论它能延伸多广，
through various tricks of thought, 通过各种思想的把戏，
of compulsion, of drugs, 通过强制、药物，
it is always within the space which the centre has created, 它始终在中心制造出的那个空间里，
and therefore there is no freedom 因此没有自由，
and therefore there is no peace at all. 因此根本没有宁静。
And... 并且...
when one observes, that only 当一个人观察时，只有
when there is space there is freedom. 当有空间时，才有自由。
And that space cannot possibly exist, psychologically, 而心理上，只要有一个观察者，
as long as there is an observer. 那空间就不可能存在。
Right? 对吗？
And 而且
one must have space, as one must have beauty, 一个人必须拥有空间，就像一个人必须拥有美，
beauty which is not manmade. 不是人造的美。
And... 并且...
is it possible then if there is no time at all, 是否可能根本没有时间，
to end 'what is', 终结“现在如何”，
to end the observer, and therefore 终结观察者，进而
to look without the interval of time? 没有时间间隔地去看？
You know, 你知道，
time is the space between the observer and that tree. 时间就是观察者和那棵树之间的空间。
The observer is static and the tree is static, psychologically. 心理上，观察者是静止的，树也是静止的。
And so to cover the distance between 所以要跨越
the observer and the tree takes time. 观察者和树之间的距离需要时间。
And that distance, 而那距离，
which has been created by 由观察者和所观之物
the observer and the observed, 制造的距离，
is always static, is always stationary. 总是静止的，总是不动的。
So, when one thinks of using time or allowing time 所以，当一个人思考着使用时间或让时间
to bring about a change in the observer, 在观察者内心带来一次变革，
you are only being caught in this static state. 你就只是陷入了这个静止的状态。
So when you discover that, 所以当你发现这点时，
then you asK: 你会问：
is it possible to change instantly 'what is'? 是否可能立刻改变“现在如何”？
The centre is violence. I'm taking that as an example 那个中心就是暴力。我以此为例
- it isn't really an example, it's a fact. - 这其实不是一个例子，而是一个事实。
One is violent, that's a fact, 人是暴力的，那是一个事实，
and the movement towards non-violence 向着非暴力的运动
is static movement, is no movement at all. 是静止的运动，根本不是运动。
Now, I explained that previously. 我之前解释过这点。
So, our question is then: is it possible to end violence, 所以，我们的问题就是：是否可能终结暴力，
not through time, but immediately? 不通过时间，而是即刻终结？
Because if there is no... 因为如果没有...
if there is an observer, 如果有一个观察者，
he is always limiting the space, 他总是将空间局限，
and therefore there is no freedom. 因而没有自由。
Therefore 所以
as long as the observer exists, every form of attempt 只要观察者存在，各种试图
to transcend it, to go beyond it, is still a waste of time. 超越它、跨过它的形式，不过是浪费时间。
So our question then: 所以，我们的问题是：
is it possible to end the observer? 是否可能终结观察者？
Not 'what is.' 而不是“现在如何”。
When there is no observer there is no 'what is.' 当没有观察者时，就没有“现在如何”。
It is the observer that creates 'what is.' 是观察者制造了“现在如何”。
So, how is it possible to end the violence, 所以，如何才能终结暴力，
- aggression, you know, all the rest of it, - 侵略，你知道，等等诸如此类，
the immense hatred that one has stored up, resentment - 一个人贮存的巨大仇恨、憎恶 -
how is it possible to end it 如何才能将其止息
so that one is completely, totally free of it? 乃至人能完全地、彻底地从中解脱？
Probably one has never asked this question. 可能人从未问过这个问题。
Either one has said或者有人说过...
one puts up with it, gets used to it, and carries on, 人要忍受它，习惯它，然后继续，
but if one puts that question, 但如果你提出那个问题，
either you put it casually or you put it 要么你漫不经心地提出，要么你
with intention to find out, 带着去发现的意图提出它，
therefore you become very serious. 于是，你变得非常认真。
And... 并且...
when you put that question because you're serious, 当你是因为认真才提出那个问题，
because you're intent, 因为你全心投入，
then you are aware of the whole process of the observer, 那么你就会觉察到观察者的整个过程，
which means you're totally attentive, 那就意味着你全神贯注，
completely attentive. 完全地关注着。
And in that attention there is no border created by the centre. 在那关注中没有中心所制造的边界。
And when there is complete attention there is no observer. 而当有全然的关注时，就没有观察者。
Look, when you look at those mountains behind the speaker, 看，当你看着讲话者后面的群山时，
the blue, the straight line, and the valley, and so on, 那蓝色，那笔直的线条，和山谷，等等，
when you give your complete attention to look, 当你倾注了全部的注意力来看时，
is there an observer? 有观察者吗？
The observer comes into being only when in that look 观察者只有在看的时候
there is inattention, which is distraction. 漫不经心，也就是分心时才会出现。
So, 所以，
only total attention 只有全神贯注
brings about the cessation of the observer. 才会带来观察者的止息。
And when there is this ending of the observer 而当观察者终结时，
there is the ending of the thing 那个被他制造出的东西
which he has created as 'what is.' “现在如何”也就终结了。
Because as we said, the observer is the observed. 因为如我们所说，观察者即所观之物。
Now, 现在，
we have in this way eliminated all conflict of search, 我们已经用这种方式消除了所有追寻的冲突，
we have eliminated all conflict 我们已经消除了
between 'what is' and 'what should be.' “现在如何”和“应当如何”之间的所有冲突。
We have put away the observer 我们已经消除了观察者
and therefore there is attention. 因而有了注意力。
It may last a second, that is good enough 它可能只持续了一秒钟，那已经够好了
- don't be greedy to have more. - 不要贪婪的想要更多。
In that greed to have more 在那想要更多的贪婪中
you have already created the centre, 你已经制造了中心，
and then you are caught. 然后你就被困住了。
In that attention 在那注意力之中
there is no seeking at all, 根本没有寻找，
and therefore there is no effort, 因此没有努力，
so the mind becomes extraordinarily alert, 所以心智变得分外警觉、
active, silent. 有活力、安静。
Then only can the mind be in a state of no experience. 然后心智才能处于一种没有经验的状态。
And this is important to understand. 理解这点很重要。
We all depend on experience 我们都依赖经验
- experience being to go through something. - 经历过某事的经验。
We all depend on experience to keep us awake, a challenge, 我们都依赖经验使我们保持清醒，依赖一次挑战、
a question, 一个问题、
an external impetus, influence, to keep us awake. 一个外来的刺激、影响使我们保持清醒。
Naturally, for the moment, that challenge, that external force 很自然，那个挑战、那个外来的力量能暂时
keeps awake for a few minutes and one goes back to sleep. 让人保持几分钟的清醒，然后就又睡去了。
So one depends constantly on experience to keep awake. 所以人不断依赖经验来保持清醒。
And when one realises that, you reject all outward stimulus, 而当你意识到那些时，你会抛弃所有外来的刺激，
all outward or inward experience. 所有外在或内在的经验。
Then one can asK: 然后一个人会问：
can the mind be so intensely alert without experience? 心智能否无需经验就能如此地高度警觉？
And if it is made alert through experience, 如果通过经验令其警觉，
it is not alert. 它就不警觉。
Obviously. 显然如此。
If an experience makes me love, 如果一种经验使我去爱，
then it's not love 那就不是爱
- behind it there is a motive. - 其后有动机。
So, such a mind 所以，这样一个心智
is the religious mind, 是宗教之心，
no longer seeking, 不再寻找，
no longer demanding experiences, 不再需要经验，
is not caught in visions, 没有陷入幻象中，
and such a mind 这样的心智
has an activity totally different, 有一种完全不同的行动，
at a different dimension, 在一个不同的维度，
which thought can never possibly reach. 思想永不可能到达。
Thought has a place, very small place, 思想有个位置，非常小的位置，
but... 但是...
when one realises that, thought has no place at all. 当人意识到那些，思想就根本没有位置了。
Which doesn't mean you live on ugly little sentiments, 那并不意味着你依赖丑陋琐碎的情绪、
emotions. 情感为生。
So one can function normally, healthily, sanely in this world 于是你能够用一个未被思想塞满的心智
with a mind that is not cluttered up by thought. 正常地、健康地、理智地在这个世界上运作。
And it is only such a mind, 只有这样的心智，
the religious mind, 宗教之心，
that can know something beyond 才能了解到超越
all the imaginations and structure of man's hope. 人类希望的一切幻想和结构的东西。
Q: This has been the concluding program in a series of 8, 旁白：这是一个八集系列节目的最后一集，
presenting the talks of Krishnamurti. 呈现了克里希那穆提的谈话。
In his writings and talks over the past four decades, 在过去四十多年的文字和谈话中，
the insights and the challenges of Krishnamurti 克里希那穆提的洞见和挑战
have attracted an ever-increasing audience 吸引了越来越多来自
in Europe, Asia and America. 欧洲、亚洲和美洲的听众。
This series represents the first time that Krishnamurti 这个系列展现了克里希那穆提第一次
has allowed his talks to be filmed. 允许他的谈话被录制。作者: 李瑞 时间: 2010-11-19 16:26
