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On being conditioned, Talk 1/论局限，讲话一 - fqzhao译
I'm sorry the weather is so foul. 很抱歉今天的天气这么糟糕。
I am sure 我可以肯定
many of you have come with your personal problems 你们很多人是带着有关个人的问题来的，
and hope by these talks they will be solved, 并且希望通过这些讲话解决这些问题，
but they can only be solved if we apply 但是要解决这些问题，我们只能进行
self choiceless awareness 无拣择的自我觉察，
and a quality of religious wholeness. 并运用一种完整的宗教品质。
I mean - we mean by 'religion' - “宗教”这个词，我的意思，- 我们的意思 -
not beliefs, dogmas, rituals 不是信念、教条、仪式，
and the vast network of superstition, 也不是庞大的迷信网络，
but religion in the deep sense of that word, 而是指宗教这个词更深层次的含义，
which only comes into being 它只有在这种自我觉察和冥想之中
when there is this self-awareness and meditation. 才能出现。
And that is what we are going to talk about 而这就是我们要探讨的，
during these four talks 通过这四次讲话
and two question and answer meetings, as has been explained. 和两次问答会来探讨，这点之前已经说过了。
To go into this matter rather deeply, 要相当深入地探讨这件事情，
not only to be aware, naturally and easily, 不仅仅是自然地、轻松地觉察到
with our own particular problems, 我们自己特定的问题，
which are related with the problems of the world, 这些问题是和世界的问题联系在一起的，
because we human beings 因为在全世界范围内我们人类
are more or less alike throughout the world, psychologically. 在心理上或多或少都是相似的。
You may have different colour, different culture, 你可能有不同的肤色，不同的文化，
different habits and customs, 以及各种不同的风俗习惯，
but in spite of that, 但是除了这些以外，
all human beings go through a great deal of travail, 所有的人类都经历了巨大的艰辛，
a great deal of sorrow, 巨大的苦难，
great anxieties, loneliness, 巨大的焦虑，孤独，
despairs, depressions. 绝望，忧伤。
Not being able to solve them, 人们无法解决这些问题，
they seek salvation through somebody else, 于是便通过别人，去寻找救赎，
through various forms of beliefs, dogmas 通过各种形式的信仰、教条
and acceptance of authorities. 和对权威的接受来寻求救赎。
So when we are discussing, 因此当我们在一起探讨，
talking over together these problems, 一同讨论这些问题时，
if we merely confine ourselves 如果我们只是把自己局限在
to our own particular little problem, 我们自己特定的琐碎问题里，
then that self-centred activity 那么这种自我中心的行为
only makes it more narrow, 只会让这些问题变得更加狭隘，
more limited, 更加局限，
and therefore it becomes more of a prison. 进而愈发演变成一种牢笼。
Whereas if we could 然而如果我们可以
during these talks and dialogues, 在这些讨论、对话，
or questions and answers, 或是提问和解答中，
if we could relate ourselves 如果我们能将自身
to the whole of humankind, 同人类的整体联系起来，
to the whole of humanity. 同整个人类联系在一起。
We are part of that humanity. 我们是这人类的一部分。
Over in the East they suffer just as much as you do; 在遥远的东方，人们承受的苦难同你们经受的一样多；
they have their sorrows, 他们有自己的悲伤，
their unhappiness, 不幸，
their utter loneliness, 深重的孤独，
a sense of negligence by the society; 感觉到被社会所忽视；
there is no security, 没有安全，
no certainty; 没有保障；
they are confused as much as we are here. 他们生活在困惑之中，就和此地的我们一样。
So we are essentially, deeply psychologically 因此我们从根本上，在内心深处
part of that humanity. 都是整个人类的一部分。
I think this must be understood really, 我想必须真正地了解这一点，
not merely verbally, or intellectually, 而不是仅仅从字面上或者智识上理解，
or through reason, but one has to feel this. 也不是经由思考来理解，而是一个人必须感受到这一点。
It is not a sentiment, or a romantic idea, but an actuality, 这并非多愁善感，或是天真烂漫的想法，而是一个事实，
that we are part of this whole of humankind 即我们是整个人类的一部分，
and therefore we have a tremendous responsibility. 因此我们身上担负着极大的责任感。
And to bring about 而带来
a unity of all other human beings, 所有人类的团结，
it is only religion can do this, 唯有真正的宗教能够做到这点，
bring us all together. 将我们聚拢在一起。
Not politics, 政治不能，
not science, 科学不能，
not some new philosophy, 也不是某种新式的哲学，
or some expansive economy, 或者某种膨胀的经济，
or various organisations - political, religious - 亦不是各种组织-政治的或宗教的-能带来的
none of them are going to bring us together, 所有这些都无法让我们团结一心，
as a whole. 成为一个整体。
I think this one has to realise very deeply, 我认为人必须深深领悟到这一点，
that no organisation 即任何组织
- religious, political, economic, - 宗教的，政治的，经济的，
or the various forms of United Nations organisations - 或是各种形式的联合国组织 -
will bring man together. 都无法让人类走到一起。
It is only religion, 唯有宗教，
in the deep sense of that word, 以这个词最深的含义，
can bring us all together. 可以让我们团结一致。
Religion - we mean by that word 宗教- 我们所说的这个词指的
not all that is going on in the world, 并不是现在世界上发生着的一切，
the various superstitions, the make-belief, 种种的迷信，人为制造的盲信，
the hierarchical set-up, 等级体系，
the dogmas, the rituals, the beliefs - 教条，仪式，信念 -
religion is far beyond all that; 宗教远远超越这一切；
it is a way of living, daily. 它是一种生活方式，每日的生活方式。
And if we could think over together, 如果我们可以一同思考，
think together, 一同探究，
not about something, 并非思考某件事，
but have the capacity 而是拥有一种能力，
to be able to look, 能够一起去看，
hear and think together. 去听，一起思考。
Could we during these talks do that? 在这几次谈话中我们可以这样做吗？
Not that we must agree with each other, 我们并非一定要赞同彼此，
or accept each other's opinions or judgements, 或是接受彼此的观点或者判断，
but rather putting aside our own particular point of view, 而是把我们各自特定的看法放在一旁，
our own experience, 还有我们各自的经验，
our own conclusions. 和各自的结论。
If we can set those aside 如果我们可以放下这些
and have the capacity to think together, 并有能力来一同思考，
not about something, 并非思考某事，
which is fairly easy, 那是相当容易的事情，
but to be able to see the same thing together, 而是能够一起来看同一件事，
to hear the same meaning, significance, 能够听到一个词的同一种内涵和意义，
the depth of a word, 以及它具有的深度，
to hear the same song, 一起聆听同一首歌，
not interpret it according to your like and dislike, 不是根据你的好恶来诠释它，
but to hear it together. 而是一同来聆听。
Because I think it is very important 因为在我看来重要的是
to be able to think together, 能够一同思考，
not as a group, 并不是像一个团体那样，
having the same thought, 持有同样的想法，
the same point of view, 同样的观点，
the same outlook, 同样的意见，
but having set aside one's own particular idiosyncrasies, 而是放下一个人自身的特定倾向，
habits of thought, 思维习惯，
come together in thought. 在思想上走到一起。
Say, for instance, we can think together about belief. 举例来说，我们可以一同思考一下信念这个问题。
We can argue for it or against it. 我们可以为它辩护也可以反对它。
We can see how important belief is, 我们可以看到信念的重要性，
to have some kind of psychological security. 以拥有某种心理上的安全感。
And being desirous of that security, we'll believe in anything. 为了追求这种安全，我们可以相信任何事情。
This is happening in the world. 这就发生在现实世界中。
Belief in the most ridiculous nonsense, 对极其荒唐的无稽之谈的相信，
both economically, religiously, and in every way. 不光在经济上，宗教上，在任何方面都存在着。
So we can think about a belief together, agreeing or disagreeing. 所以我们可以一起来思考某个信念，同意或者不同意。
But we are trying something else, 但我们在尝试的是另外一种东西，
which is not thinking about something, 它并非是对某事的思考，
but thinking itself together. 而是一起思考本身。
I wonder if I am making myself clear. 我不知道我是否说清楚了。
No two people apparently are capable of thinking together, 很显然，任何两个人都无法一起思考，
unless there is some catastrophe, 除非灾难降临，
unless there is some great sorrow, a crisis, 除非要面对某种巨大的痛苦和危机，
then people come together and think together, 那时人们才能走到一起并一起思考，
about a war, and so on. 关于战争等等问题。
It is always thinking together about something. 人们总是一起对某事进行思考。
Right? 对吗？
But we are trying something, which is to think together. 但我们所尝试的，是一起思考。
Which is only possible if we for the moment forget ourselves, 这只有当我们暂时忘却了自己，
our own problems, our own inclinations, 忘记了自己的问题，自己的倾向，
our intellectual capacities, and so on, so on, 我们智力上的能力，等等等等，
and meet each other. 并且彼此相遇时，才可能发生。
That requires a certain sense of attention, 这需要某种关注感，
a certain sense of awareness, 某种觉察感，
that each one of us are together 这要求我们每一个人都一起
in the quality of thinking. 投入到思考的品质中。
I don't know how to express it more than that. 我不知道怎么才能更好地表述这一点。
Could we do that 我们可以这样一同思考
about all our problems? 我们所有的问题吗？
We can think together about our problems, 我们可以一同思考我们的问题，
but to have the capacity 但是我们要有这样的能力，
to think at the same level, 以同样的深度来思考，
with the same intensity, 以同样的热忱来思考，
not about something, 不是思考某件事，
but the feeling of thinking together. 而是那种一起思考的感觉。
I wonder if you get it? 我想知道你们是否明白了 ？
If we could do that, 如果我们可以这么做，
we can go together into many things. 我们即可共同深入许多的事情。
That means a certain quality of freedom, 那意味着某种自由的品质，
a certain sense of detachment, 某种超脱感，
not forced, compelled, 不是被迫，被勉强，
driven, 也不是被驱使，
but the freedom 而是某种
from our own backyard, 从我们自身的问题中解脱出来的自由，
and then meet together. 然后彼此相遇。
Because this becomes very important 因为这一点变得尤其重要，
when you want to create a good society. 如果你们想要建设一个美好的社会。
The philosophers have talked about it, 哲学家们曾经谈论过这个问题，
the ancient Greeks, the ancient Hindus, 古希腊人，古印度人，
and the Chinese have talked about 还有中国人都曾谈论过
bringing about a good society. 如何带来一个美好的社会。
That is, in the future. 也就是说，在未来的某一天。
Some time in the future 未来的某个时候
we will create a good society 我们会创造出一个美好的社会，
according to an ideal, a pattern, 根据某种理想，某种模式，
a certain sense of ideals, and so on. 根据某种理想主义，等等。
And apparently, throughout the world 但很显然，走遍整个世界
a good society has never come into being; 这样美好的社会从未出现过；
there are good people, maybe. 尽管也许是有些善良的人。
It is becoming more and more difficult to be good in this world. 在这个世界上，良善的生活正变得越来越困难。
And we are always looking to the future 而我们总是把眼光投向未来，
to bring about this good society, 希望未来能有这样一个美好的社会，
good in the sense 美好意味着
where people can live on this earth without wars, 可以在这个地球上和平地生活，
peacefully, without slaughtering each other, 没有战争，不必彼此屠杀，
without competition, 没有竞争，
in a sense of great freedom, and so on. 生活在一种巨大的自由感之中，等等。
We are not defining what is good for the moment; 我们此刻并不是在定义什么是美好；
the definition of the good doesn't make one good. 定义出的美好无法让人变得美好。
So can we together think 所以我们能否一起想一想
the absolute need 一个美好的社会
of a good society? 绝对需要些什么？
The society is what we are. 社会即是我们的样子。
Society doesn't come into being mysteriously, 社会并不是神秘地突然产生的，
it is not created by God; 它并非由上帝创造；
man has created this society, 人类自己创造了这个社会，
with all the wars and all that is going on. 制造了战争和现在发生着的一切。
We don't have to go into all the horrible details of it. 我们不必深入到所有那些令人恐怖的细节中了。
And that society is what we are, 社会即是我们自己的样子，
what each human being is. 每个人现在的样子。
That is fairly obvious. 这一点是非常明显的。
That is, we create the society 即是，我们创造了社会
with all its divisions, 以及它所有的分裂，
with its conflicts, with its terror, 它的冲突，它的恐怖，
with its inequality, 它的不公，
and so on, so on, so on. 以及等等，等等。
Because in ourselves we are that, 因为我们自己就是如此。
which is in our relationship with each other, we are that. 我们彼此的关系就是如此。
We may be fairly tolerant, 在私人关系里，
fairly affectionate in private relationships 我们可能非常友爱，充满情谊
- even that's rather doubtful - - 尽管这一点也相当值得怀疑 -
but with regard to the rest of the human beings we are not. 但是对其他的人类我们就不是这样了。
Which is again fairly obvious, 这同样是明显的事实，
when you read the newspapers, magazines 当你阅读报纸杂志
and actually see what is going on. 看看现实中发生的事情就能明白。
So, good society 所以，美好的社会
can only come into being 不是在未来实现，
not in the future, but now 而只能是现在，
when we human beings 只有当我们人类
have established right relationship between ourselves. 和彼此建立起正确的关系才有可能。
Is that possible? 这可能实现么？
Not at some future date, 不是在未来的某天，
but actually in the present, 而是在确确实实的现在，
in our daily life, could we bring about 在我们日常生活中，我们能否
a relationship that is essentially good? 带来一种本质上良善的关系？
Good being without domination, 良善意味着没有统治，
without personal interest, 没有个人利益，
without personal vanity, 没有个人的虚荣，
ambition, and so on. 野心，等等。
So that there is a relationship between each other 这样彼此间就有一种关系
which is based essentially on 这关系从本质上是植根于
- if I may use the word and I hope you won't mind - love. - 如果我可以用这个词我希望你们不会介意 - 爱的。
Is that possible? 这可能实现么？
Can we, as human beings, 作为人类，我们是否可以
living in this terrible world which we have created... 在这个我们自己创造的可怕的世界上生活...
Could we bring about 我们是否可以
a radical change in ourselves? 从我们自身带来彻底的转变？
That is the whole point. 这是整个重点所在。
Some philosophers and others have said 一些哲学家和别的什么人曾说过
human conditioning is impossible radically to change; 人类的局限是不可能彻底改变的；
you can modify it, 你可以修正它，
you can polish it, refine it, 你可以修饰它，提炼它，
but the basic quality of conditioning 但是根本的局限性
you cannot alter. 你无法改变。
There are a great many people who think that, 有很多很多人就是这么认为的，
the Existentialists, and so on, so on, so on. 包括存在主义者，等等。
Why do we accept such conditioning? 为什么我们接受这种局限？
You are following, I hope, what we are talking about? 我希望，你们在听我们正在讨论的内容。
Why do we accept our conditioning 为什么我们接受自身的局限？
which has brought about 而这局限造就了
this really mad world, insane world? 这个十分疯狂的、不健全的世界。
Where we want peace and we are supplying armaments. 我们想要和平却同时在贩卖武器。
Where we want peace and we are nationalistically, 我们想要和平却在国家上，
economically, socially dividing each other. 经济上，社会上分裂彼此。
We want peace and all religions are making us separate, 我们想要和平但是所有的宗教都在让我们彼此分离，
as they are, the organisations. 所有的组织，亦是如此。
There is such vast contradiction out there 世上有如此多的矛盾冲突
as well as in ourselves. 就像在我们内心中那样。
I wonder if one is aware of all this, 我不知道一个人是否察觉到所有这些，
in ourselves, not what is happening out there. 察觉我们内心的状况，而非外在发生的事情。
Most of us know what is happening out there. 我们大多数人都知道外在世界发生着什么。
You don't have to be very clever to find out, just observe. 你不一定要非常聪明才能发现，只是去观察。
And that confusion out there 而外在的混乱
is partly responsible for our own conditioning. 在一定程度上对我们的局限负有责任。
We are asking: 我们要问：
is it possible to bring about in ourselves 我们能否从自身对此
a radical transformation of this? 带来一场彻底的转变？
Because only then we can have a good society 因为只有这样我们才能有一个良善的社会
where we won't hurt each other, 在那里我们不会彼此伤害，
both psychologically as well as physically. 无论是在心理上还是在身体上。
When one asks this question of ourselves, 当一个人问出这个关乎我们自身的问题，
what is our deep response to that question? 对于这个问题，我们来自内心深处的回答会是怎样的？
One is conditioned, 人是局限的，
not only as an Englishman, or a German, or Frenchman, and so on, 不仅是作为英国人，或是德国人，法国人等等，
but also one is conditioned by various forms of desires, 同时人也局限于各种形式的欲望，
beliefs, 信念，
pleasures, 快感，
and conflicts, psychological conflicts 和冲突，心理上的冲突
- all that contributes to this conditioning, and more. - 所有这些都加深了局限，带来了更多问题。
We will go into it. 我们将会深入探讨这点。
We are asking ourselves, 我们在问自己，
thinking together 一同思考
- because we are thinking together I hope - - 因为我们在一起思考我希望如此 -
can this conditioning, 这种局限，
can this human prison 这种人类的牢笼
with its griefs, loneliness, anxieties, 及其种种悲伤，孤独，焦虑，
personal assertions, 个人的主张，
personal demands, fulfilments, and all that 个人的需要，满足，所有这些
- that is our conditioning, - 那即是我们的局限，
that is our consciousness, 那就是我们的意识，
and our consciousness is its content. 而我们的意识就是它的内容。
And we are asking: 于是我们要问：
can that whole structure be transformed? 这整个结构可以被转变么？
Otherwise we will never have peace in this world. 否则我们就永远无法在这个世界上拥有和平。
There will be perhaps little modifications, 也许会有一些微小的改观，
but man will be fighting, quarrelling, 但是人们仍会彼此交战，争吵，
perpetually in conflict within himself and outwardly. 陷入内在和外在无休止的冲突之中。
So that is our question. 所以这就是我们的问题。
Can we think together with regard to this? 对此我们可以一同思考么？
Then the question arises: what is one to do? 于是一个问题出现了：我们该怎么办？
One is aware that one is conditioned, 一个人觉察到自身的局限，
knows, conscious. 了解到，意识到。
This conditioning has come into being by one's own desires, 这种局限产生于他自己的欲望，
self-centred activities, 自我中心的行为，
through lack of right relationship with each other, 由于和彼此缺少正确的关系，
one's own sense of loneliness. 以及内心的孤独感。
One may live among a great many people, 一个人可能同许许多多人生活在一起，
have intimate relationships, 拥有亲密的关系，
but there is always this sense of 但总是有这样一种感觉，
empty whirl within oneself. 好像心中有个空虚的漩涡。
All that is our conditioning, 所有这些都是我们的局限，
intellectual, psychological, emotional, 在智力上，心理上，感情上，
and also physical, naturally. 当然，同时也在身体上。
Now can this totally be transformed? 那么所有这些可以被完全转变么？
That I feel is the real revolution. 我感到这即是真正的革命。
In that there is no violence. 这其中不存在暴力。
Now can we do it together? 那么我们能一起转化自身么？
Or if you do it, 或者如果你这样做了，
if you understand the conditioning 如果你理解了这局限
and resolve that conditioning, 并且消解了这个局限
and another is conditioned, 而另一个人仍在局限中，
will the man who is conditioned listen to another? 那个局限中的人会去听聆听他人么？
You understand? 你们理解么？
Perhaps you are unconditioned, 也许你已经没有了局限，
will I listen to you? 可我会听你的话么？
And what will make me listen? 什么才能让我倾听？
What pressure, 什么压力，
what influence, 怎样的影响，
what reward? 什么样的回报？
What will make me listen to you, 什么才能让我倾听你，
with my heart, with my mind, with my whole being? 用我心灵，我的头脑，以我的整个存在？
Because if one can listen so completely, 因为如果一个人可以这样全然地倾听，
perhaps the solution is there. 也许答案就在那里。
But apparently we don't seem to listen. 但是显然我们看起来并没有倾听。
So we are asking: 因此我们要问：
what will make a human being, 如何才能让一个人，
knowing his conditioning - most of us do 了解自身的局限- 我们大多数人都能了解
if you are at all intelligently aware - 只要你有一点点智力上的觉察 -
what will make us change? 什么才能让我们改变？
Please put this question to ourselves, each one of us, 请我们每个人都将这个问题问一问自己，
find out what will make each one of us bring about 去发现什么才能让我们每一个人
a change, a freedom from this conditioning? 发生改变，从这局限中解脱出来？
Not to jump into another conditioning: 而不是跳入另外一种局限：
it is like leaving Catholicism and becoming a Buddhist. 就像脱离了天主教却又成为了一个佛教徒。
It is the same pattern. 那是同一个模式。
So what will make one, each one of us, 所以什么才能让一个人，我们中的每一个人，
who, one is quite sure, 这个人非常确定，
is desirous of bringing about a good society, 他想要创造一个良善的社会，
what will make him change? 什么才能让他改变？
Change has been promised through reward 人们总是基于奖赏才会承诺做出改变
- heaven, a new kind of carrot, -天堂，某种新的好处，
a new ideology, a new community, 某种新的主义，新的社团，
new set of groups, 新的组织体系，
new gurus 新的上师
- a reward. - 一种奖励。
Or a punishment: 否则就是惩罚：
'If you don't do this you will go to Hell.' “如果你不这样做你就会下地狱。”
So our whole thinking 于是我们的整个思想
is based on this principle of reward and punishment. 都是建立在这种奖惩的原则之上。
'I will do this if I can get something out of it.' “如果能从中得到点回报我就会去做。”
But that kind of attitude, or that way of thinking, 但是这种态度，或是这种思维方式，
doesn't bring about radical change. 是不会带来彻底转变的。
And that change is absolutely necessary. 而这种转变是迫在眉睫的。
I am sure we are all aware of it. 我相信大家都看到了这一点。
So what shall we do? 那么我们该怎么办？
Some of you 在座的一些人
have listened to the speaker for a number of years. 听讲话者的演讲已经听了许多年。
I wonder why. 我不知道为什么。
And having listened, it becomes 听了这么久，所说的东西已经成为
a new kind of mantram. 一种新的咒语。
You know what that word is? 你们知道这个词的意思么？
It is a Sanskrit word 它是一个梵语的词汇，
meaning, in its true meaning 意思是，它真正的含义是
is not to be self-centred 不要自我中心
and to ponder over 同时去沉思
about not becoming. 不要成为什么。
The meaning of that is that - mantram means that. 这就是咒语这个词的意思。
Abolish self-centredness 停止自我中心，
and ponder, meditate, 沉思，冥想，
look at yourself so that you don't become something. 观察自己从而不达成什么。
That is the real meaning of that word 那就是这个词的真正含义，
which has been ruined by all the transcendental meditation nonsense. 这个词已经被那些超验冥想的胡说破坏了。
So some of you have listened for many years. 你们有些人已经听了很多年。
And do we listen and therefore bring about a change 我们是否在聆听并因此带来改变
or you have got used to the words 还是你们已经对这些话语习以为常
and just carry on? 只是一如既往地得过且过？
So we are asking: 于是我们要问：
what will make man, a human being 什么才能让一个人，人类
who has lived for so many million years, 生活了几百万年的时间，
carrying on the same old pattern, 仍背负着同样陈旧的模式，
inherited the same instincts, 继承了同样的天性，
self-preservation, fear, security, 自我保护，恐惧，安全感，
sense of self-concern 自私自利感，
which brings about great isolation, 这些带来了深重的隔绝，
what will make that man change? 而什么才能让这个人改变？
A new God? 一个新的神祗？
A new form of entertainment? 一种新型的娱乐？
A new religious football? 一种足球赛式的新宗教？
New kind of circus with all the - you know - with all that stuff? 新型的马戏以及- 你们知道的 - 以及所有那些东西？
What will make us change? 什么才能让我们改变？
Sorrow apparently has not changed man, 悲伤显然没能改变人类，
because we have suffered a great deal, 因为我们已经承受过太多痛苦，
not only individually, but collectively, 不光是个人的，还有集体的痛苦，
as a whole of mankind we have suffered an enormous amount 我们整个人类都经历了巨大的苦难
- wars, disease, - 战争，疾病，
pain, death. 痛苦，死亡。
We have suffered enormously, 我们承受过极大的苦难，
and apparently sorrow has not changed us. 然而显然痛苦没能改变我们。
Nor fear. 恐惧也没能。
That hasn't changed us, 那些没有改变我们。
because our mind is pursuing constantly, 因为我们的头脑总是在不断追求，
seeking out pleasure, 寻找快乐，
and even that pleasure is the same pleasure 即使那些快感千篇一律，
in different forms, that hasn't changed us. 仅仅形式上不同而已，这些也没有令我们改变。
So what will make us change? 那么什么才能让我们改变？
We don't seem to be able to do anything voluntarily. 我们似乎无法自发地去做任何事情。
We will do things under pressure. 我们在压力下才会做事情。
If there was no pressure, 如果没有任何压力，
no sense of reward or punishment 没有任何奖励或者惩罚的味道
- because reward and punishment are too silly to even think about. - 因为奖励和惩罚都太愚蠢，甚至都不必去想这些。
If there was no sense of future 如果没有某种未来感，
- I don't know if you have gone into that whole question - - 我不知道你们是否曾经深入过整个 -
of future, 关于将来的问题，
that may be our deception, psychologically. 那也许是我们心理上的自欺。
We will go into that presently. 我们马上就会深入这个问题。
If you abandon all those, 如果我们抛弃了所有这些，
then what is the quality of the mind 那么头脑将具有怎样的品质
that faces absolutely the present? 来全然地面对现在？
Do you understand my question? 你们明白我的问题么？
Are we communicating with each other? 我们是在相互沟通么？
Please, say yes or no, I don't know where we are. 请说一说，是或者不是，我都不知道我们到了哪里。
I hope I'm not talking to myself. 我希望我不是在自说自话。
If one realises that one is in a prison, 当一个人意识到自己是在一个牢笼里，
that prison created by oneself, 一座自己制造的牢笼，
oneself being the result of the past 自身便是过去的结果
- parents, grandparents and so on, so on - - 从父母， 祖父母等等，等等 -
inherited, acquired, imposed, 那里继承的，获得的，强加来的东西，
that is our psychological prison in which we live. 那就是我们生活在其中的心理牢笼。
And naturally, the instinct is to break through that prison. 所以自然而然地，就有种本能想打破这个牢笼。
Now, does one realise, 现在， 一个人是否意识到了这点，
not as an idea, 不是作为一个想法，
not as a concept, but as an actuality, 不是作为一个理论，而是作为一个真切的事实，
psychologically a fact? 是否认识到了这个心理事实？
When one faces that fact, 当一个人面对这个事实的时候，
why is it even then there is no possibility of change? 为什么即使此时仍然没有改变的可能？
You understand my question? 你们明白我的问题么？
This has been a problem, 这已经成为一个问题，
a problem for all serious people, 对于所有严肃诚挚的人来说，
for all people who are concerned 对于所有关怀着
with the human tragedy, the human misery, 人类的痛苦，人类的不幸的人，
and asking themselves why don't we all bring about 要问问自己为什么我们不能获得
a sense of clarity in ourselves, 某种内心的清明感，
a sense of freedom, 某种自由感，
a sense of being essentially good? 某种真挚的善良感？
I don't know if you have not noticed, 我不知道你们有没有注意到，
the intellectuals, the literary people, the writers, 那些知识分子，精通文学的人们和作家，
and the so-called leaders of the world 以及所谓的世界领袖，
are not talking about bringing about a good society, 都不谈论如何创造一个美好的社会，
they have given it up. 他们全都放弃了。
We were talking the other day to some of these people 有一天当我们和那样一些人讨论的时候，
and they said, 'What nonsense that is, 他们说，“这些都是无稽之谈，
that is old-fashioned, throw it out. 早已经过时了，扔掉这些想法吧。
There is no such thing as a good society any more. 再也没有美好的社会这回事了。
This is Victorian, stupid, nonsensical. 这是维多利亚时代的东西，愚蠢，荒谬。
We have to accept things as they are and live with them.' 我们只能接受事情现在的样子，并与之共处。”
And probably for most of us it is like that. 可能我们中的大多数人也都这样想。
So you and I, as two friends 于是你和我，作为两个朋友
talking over this, what shall we do? 谈论了这个问题之后，我们该做些什么？
Authority of another doesn't change, 奉别人为权威不会带来改变，
doesn't bring about this change, right? 无法带来这种转变，对么？
If I accept you as my authority, 如果我接受你作为我的权威，
because I want to bring about a revolution in myself 因为我想要在自己内心进行一场革命，
and so perhaps bring about a good society, 于是可能就会带来一个美好的社会，
the very idea of my following you, 可就是这个我追随你的想法本身，
as you instructing me, 也即你在指导我，
that ends good society. 这本身便终结了良善的社会。
I wonder if you see that? 我不知道你们是否看到了这一点？
I am not good because you tell me to be good, 并不会因为你让我变善良我就会变得善良起来，
or I accept you as the supreme authority over righteousness, 即使我奉你为至高无上的正义权威，并且追随你，
and I follow you. 我也不会真的改变。
The very acceptance of authority and obedience 恰恰是对权威的接受、服从
is the very destruction of a good society. 毁坏了良善的社会。
Isn't that so? I wonder if you see this. 难道不是么？我不知道你们能否看到这一点。
May we go further into this matter? 我们要更深入地探讨这个问题么？
If I have a guru - thank god I haven't got one - 如果我有个上师- 感谢上帝我没有 -
if I have a guru and I follow him, 如果我有一个上师并且我追随他，
what have I done to myself? 那么我对自己做了什么？
What I have done in the world? 我对世界做了些什么？
Nothing. 什么都没有。
He tells me some nonsense, 他告诉我一些无稽之谈，
how to meditate, this or that, 怎样冥想，这样或那样，
and I will get marvellous experience or levitate, 说如此我就能得到绝妙的体验或者能在空中漂浮，
and all the rest of that nonsense, 等等这些胡言乱语，
and my intention is to bring about a good society 而我关心的是带来一个良好的社会，
where we can be happy, 生活在其中，我们都能快乐，
where there is a sense of affection, 那里充满了爱的感觉，
a relationship, so that there is no barrier, 其中有一种真正的关系，因而完全没有了障碍，
that is my longing. 这是我的渴望。
I go to you as my guru and what have I done? 我把你作为上师来膜拜，那么我做了什么呢？
I have destroyed the very thing that I wanted 我恰恰毁灭了我所希求的东西。
Because authority, 因为权威，
apart from law and all the rest of that, 除了法律以及其他的那一切，
psychological authority is divisive, 心理上的权威必然导致分歧，
is in its very nature separative. 它本身的性质即是分裂的。
You up there and I down below, 你高高在上而我低微在下，
and so you are always progressing higher and higher, 你总是前进得越来越高，
and I am also progressing higher and higher, we never meet! 而我也在走得越来越高，可我们永远都遇不上！
(Laughter) （笑声）
You laugh, I know, 你笑了，我知道，
but actually this is what we are doing. 但这其实正是我们在做的事情。
So, can I realise 所以，我能否认识到
authority with its implication of organisation 权威及其衍生出的组织
will never free me? 永远不能让我自由？
Authority gives one a sense of security. 权威给人一种安全感。
I don't know, I am confused, you know, 我不知道，我很迷惑，但你知道，
or at least I think you know, 或者至少我认为你知道，
that's good enough for me. 那对我来说已经够好了。
I invest my energy 我把我的精力
and my demand for security in you, 和我对安全的渴望投注在你身上，
in what you are talking about. 投注在你所说的东西上。
And we create an organisation around that, 而且我们据此创建了一个组织。
and that very organisation becomes the prison. 而恰恰是这个组织变成了监狱。
I don't know if you know all this? 我不知道你们知道这一切么？
That's why one should not belong 这就是为什么一个人不应该属于
to any spiritual organisation, 任何一个灵性组织，
however promising, however enticing, however romantic. 无论前途怎样光明，怎样迷人，怎样罗曼蒂克。
Can we even accept, see that together? 我们能一起看到，哪怕是接受这一点么？
You understand my question? 你们明白我的问题么？
See it together, to be a fact, 一起看到这点，看到那是一个事实，
and therefore when we see that together it is finished. 因而当我们一起看到了它它便结束了。
Seeing that the very nature of authority, 看到权威的本质，
with its organisation, religious and otherwise, 以及它的组织，不管是不是宗教性的，
is separative; 都会带来分裂；
and obedience, 同时，对权威的服从，
setting up the hierarchical system, 建立起等级体系，
which is what is happening in the world and therefore 这就是世界上发生着的事情，因而也是
which is part of the destructive nature of the world, 这个世界毁灭性的一部分，
seeing the truth of that, throw it out. 看到这一真相，抛弃它。
Can we do that? 我们能做到么？
So that none of us - I am sorry - 于是我们中不再有人- 我很抱歉 -
so that none of us belong to any spiritual organisations. 于是不再有人属于任何一个灵性组织。
That is, religious organisations, 也就是宗教组织，
Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist, none. 天主教，新教，印度教，佛教，一个都不属于。
By belonging to something we feel secure. 属于什么东西让我们感到安全。
Right? Obviously. 对么？很明显。
But belonging to something invariably brings about insecurity, 但是属于什么东西不可避免地会带来不安全，
because in itself it is separative. 因为它自身就是分裂的。
You have your guru, your authority, 你有你的上师，你的权威，
you are a Catholic, Protestant, 你是天主教徒，新教徒，
and somebody else is something else. 而别人是其他的什么教徒。
So they never meet, though all organised religions say, 于是他们永远不会相遇，虽然所有的宗教组织都说，
'We're all working together for truth.' “我们都在为真理而一起努力。”
So can we, listening to each other, to this fact, 所以，我们能不能倾听彼此，倾听这个事实，
finish from our thinking 从我们的思想里结束
all sense of acceptance of authority, 所有对权威的接受，
psychological authority, 终结心理上的权威，
and therefore all the organisations created round it, 及其周围衍生的所有组织，
then what happens? 然后会怎样？
Have I dropped authority because you have said so 是否因为你告诉了我我便放弃了权威
and I see the destructive nature of these so-called organisations? 并且看到了那些所谓组织的毁灭本性？
And do I see it as a fact and therefore with intelligence? 我是否将这作为一个事实看清了因而拥有了智慧？
Or just vaguely accept it? 还是我只不过含糊地接受了这些？
I don't know if you are following this? 我不知道你们是不是跟上了这点？
If one sees the fact, 如果一个人看到了事实，
the very perception of that fact is intelligence, 对事实的觉察本身就是智慧，
and in that intelligence there is security, 而安全就在那智慧中，
not in some superstitious nonsense. 而不是在某些迷信的无稽之谈里。
I wonder if you see? 我不知道你们看到了没有？
Are we meeting each other? 我们在与彼此相遇么？
I am a bit lost. 我有一些茫然。
Would you tell me, are we meeting each other? 你能否告诉我，我们彼此相遇了么？
Q: Yes. 发问者：是的。
K: No, not verbally, please. 克：不，不是字面意思上的相遇，拜托。
That is very easy, because we are all speaking English, 语言上的沟通是很容易的，因为我们都说英语，
or French, or whatever it is. 或者法语，或者无论什么语言。
Intellectually, verbally is not meeting together. 理智上，语言上的沟通并不是相遇。
It is when you see the fact together. 只有在我们一起看到事实的时候。
Now can we... So we are asking 现在我们能不能...我们要问
can we look at the fact of our conditioning? 我们能不能看到自己的局限，这一事实？
Not the idea of our conditioning. 而不是关于我们的局限的想法。
The fact that we are British, 事实上，我们是英国人，
German, American, Russian, 德国人，美国人，俄国人
or Hindu, or Eastern, or whatever it is, 或者印度人，东方人，无论是什么，
that is one thing. 都是一回事。
Conditioning brought about through economic reasons, 局限产生于经济原因，
climate, food, clothes, 气候，食物，衣服，
and so on, physical. 等等，物质的因素。
But also there is a great deal of psychological conditioning. 然而还有许许多多心理上的局限。
Can we look at that as fact? 我们能看到这些事实么？
Like fear. 比如恐惧。
Can you look at that? 你能观察它么？
Or if you can't for the moment, 或者如果你现在无法做到，
can we look at the hurts that we have received, 我们能不能看看我们受过的伤害，
the wounds, the psychological wounds that we have treasured, 种种心理上的伤痕，我们视若珍宝的创伤，
the wounds that we have received from childhood. 我们从小经受过的伤害。
Look at it, not analyse it. 观察它，而不是分析它。
The psychotherapists 精神治疗师们
- sorry I hope there aren't any here - - 对不起，我希望在座各位都不是 -
the psychotherapists go back, 精神治疗师追溯过去，
investigate into the past. 探索过去的影响。
That is, seek the cause of the wounds that one has received, 也就是，寻找一个人所受创伤的源头，
investigating, analysing 研究，分析
the whole movement of the past. 整个过去的运动。
That is generally called analysis, psychotherapy. 这通常被称作分析，精神疗法。
Now, discovering the cause, does that help? 然而，去发掘原因，这么做有帮助吗？
And you have taken a lot of time, years perhaps 你花费了很多时间，或许很多年
- it is a game that we all play, - 这是一个我们都在玩的游戏，
because we never want to face the fact, 因为我们从来不愿意去面对事实，
but 'Let's investigate how the fact has come into being.' 而是说着“让我们研究一下这事实是如何发生的。”
I don't know if you are following all this? 我不知道你们理解这些了么？
So you are expending a great deal of energy 因此你们花费了大量的精力
and probably a great deal of money 同时也可能花了大量的金钱
into proficient investigation into the past, 对过去进行深入的研究，
or your own investigation, if you are capable of it. 或者你自己进行研究，如果你有这个能力的话。
And we are saying, such forms of analysis 我们要说，这种形式的分析
are not only separative, because the analyser 不仅会造成分裂，因为分析者
thinks he is different from the thing he is analysing, right? 认为他与他所分析之物是不同的，对不对？
You are following all this? 你们跟上这点了么？
So, he maintains this division through analysis, 所以，他通过分析维系了这种分裂，
whereas the obvious fact is the analyser is the analysed. 但事实显然是分析者就是被分析之物。
I wonder if you see that? 我不知道你们是否看到了这点？
The moment one recognises that 一旦你看到了这一点
the analyser is the analysed, 即分析者就是被分析之物，
because when you are angry you are that 因为当你生气的时候你就是愤怒
- is this a puzzle? - - 这是不是有些费解？-
that the observer is the observed. 即观察者即是所观之物。
When there is that actual reality of that, 如果看到了这个真切的现实，
then analysis has no meaning, 那么分析就没有任何意义了，
there is only pure observation 只有纯然的观察
of the fact which is happening now. 观察正在发生着的事实。
I wonder if you see this? 我不知道你们是否看到了这一点？
It may be rather difficult because most of us 对于我们大多数人来说这可能相当困难
are so conditioned to the analytical process, 因为我们已经深深局限于分析的过程中，
self-examination, 自我反省，
introspective investigation, 内省式研究，
we are so accustomed to that, we are so conditioned by it, 我们对此太习以为常，太过局限于此，
that perhaps if something new is said, 以致于可能一旦说出某种崭新的东西，
you instantly reject, or you withdraw. 你会立刻排斥，或者避而不谈。
So please investigate, look at it. 所以请审视，请看看这点。
We are saying: 我们说：
is it possible to look at the fact 有没有可能观察事实本身
as it is happening now 而它正在发生着
- anger, jealousy, violence, - 愤怒，嫉妒，暴力，
pleasure, fear, whatever it is - 快感，恐惧，无论它是什么 -
to look at it, not analyse it, 观察它，而不去分析它，
just to look at it, 仅仅是看着它，
and in that very observation 而在这种观察中
is the observer merely observing the fact 究竟仅仅是观察者在观察着事实
as something separate from himself, 把事实作为与他自己分离的东西来观察，
or he is the fact? 还是他自己就是那事实本身？
I wonder if you get this? 我想知道你们明白这点了么？
Am I making myself clear? 我有没有说清楚？
You understand the distinction? 你们理解其中的区别么？
Most of us are conditioned to the idea 我们大多数人都局限于一种观念
that the observer is different from the thing observed. 即观察者不同于观察到的东西。
I have been greedy, 我是贪婪的，
I have been violent. 我是暴力的。
So at the moment of violence there is no division, 而在暴力的时刻并不存在着划分，
it is only later on thought picks it up 只是在后来思想捡起这件事
and separates itself from the fact. 然后将自己与事实分离开来。
So the observer is the past 因此观察者是过去
looking at actually what is happening now. 是过去在审视着实际上正在发生着的事情。
I wonder if you get all this? 我想知道你们是否明白了这一切？
So can you look at the fact 所以你能否观察这事实
- you are angry, misery, loneliness, whatever it is - - 你生气，痛苦，孤独，无论是什么 -
look at that fact without the observer saying 观察事实而没有一个观察者说
'I am separate and looking at it differently.' “我与事实是分开的，我从旁边观察着它。”
You understand? 你们理解么？
Or does he recognise the fact is himself, 或是他发现事实即是他自己，
there is no division between the fact and himself? 在事实和他自己之间没有分别？
The fact is himself. I wonder if you see. 事实即是他自己。我不知道你们是否明白。
And therefore what takes place when 那么当真的看到事实的时候
that actuality takes place? 会发生什么？
You understand what I am saying? 你们理解我说的意思么？
Look, my mind has been conditioned to look at the fact, 你看，我的头脑已局限于想要看到现实，
which is loneliness - let's take that, 也就是孤独- 我们以此为例，
no, we began with being hurt, from childhood. 不，我们从受伤开始，自从童年起的伤害。
Let's look at it. 让我们观察它。
I have been accustomed, used to thinking 我已经习以为常，习惯于认为
that I am different from the hurt, right? 我是不同于伤害的，对么？
And therefore my action towards that hurt 因此我对那伤害采取的行为
is either suppression, avoidance, 或者是压抑，逃避，
or building round my hurt 或是在我的伤害四周建立起
a resistance, so that I don't get hurt any more. 一种抗拒，以让自己不再受伤。
Therefore that hurt is making me more and more isolated, 于是这个伤害让我越来越封闭，
more and more afraid. 越来越害怕。
So this division has taken place because 所以这个分别的产生是由于
I think I am different from the hurt. Right? 我认为自己不同于伤害。对不对？
You are following all this? 你们理解所有这些了么？
But the hurt is me. 但是伤害即是我自己。
The 'me' is the image that I have created about myself 这个“我”就是我给自己塑造的形象
which is hurt. Right? 也就是伤害。对么？
I wonder if you see all this? 我不知道你们是否看到了这些？
May I go on? You are following all this? 我可以继续么？你们理解这些了么？
So, I have created an image through education, 所以，我制造了一个形象，通过教育，
through my family, through society, 通过我的家庭，通过社会，
through all the religious ideas of soul, separativeness, 通过所有宗教里的灵魂之说，分离性，
individual, all that, I have created an image about myself, 个体性，通过所有这些，我给自己建立了一个形象，
and you tread on that image - I get wounded. 你践踏了这个形象，- 我便受到了伤害。
Then I say that hurt is not me; 接着我说那伤害并不是我；
I must do something about that hurt. 我必须对伤害采取行动。
So I maintain the division between the hurt and myself. 因此我维系了伤害和我自己之间的划分。
But the fact is the image is me, which has been hurt. 然而事实是，形象即是我，是它受到了伤害。
Right? 对么？
So can I look at that fact? 所以我能否看到这一事实？
Look at the fact that the image is myself, 看到形象即是我自己的事实，
and as long as I have the image about myself 并且只要我拥有自我形象
somebody is going to tread on it. 注定会有人来践踏它。
That's a fact. 这是一个事实。
Can the mind be free of the image? 头脑能不能从形象中解脱出来？
Because one realises as long as that image exists 因为一个人意识到只要形象存在
you are going to do something to it, put a pin into it, 你就会对它做些什么，就会刺痛它，
and therefore there will be hurt 因此就会有伤害，
with the result of isolation, fear, resistance, 进而带来的结果是隔绝，恐惧，抗拒，
building a wall round myself 在我自己四周筑起围墙
- all that takes place when there is the division - 所有这些都会发生只要有观察者
between the observer and the observed, which is the hurt. 和所观之物，也即伤害之间的分别存在。
Right? 对么？
This is not intellectual, please. 这并不是什么高深的智力问题，拜托。
This is just ordinary observing oneself, 这仅仅是很普通的对自己的观察，
which we began by saying 'self-awareness.' 就是我们在开始所谈的“自我觉察”。
So, what takes place then, 所以，当观察者就是所观之物时，
when the observer is the observed 会发生什么？
- you understand? - the actuality of it, - 你们理解么？-是确实发生了这个事实，
not the idea of it, 而不是一个观念，
then what takes place? 那么会发生什么？
I have been hurt from childhood, 我从小就受到伤害，
through school, through parents, 在学校里，在家长那里，
through other boys and girls - you know - 在其他的男孩女孩那里- 你们知道的 -
I have been hurt, wounded, psychologically. 我已经受到伤害，心理伤害。
And I carry that hurt throughout my life, 并且终生我都背负着这个伤害，
hidden, 隐隐作痛，
anxious, frightened, 焦躁不安，战战兢兢，
and I know the result of all that. 我知道所有这些结果。
And now I see that hurt exists 而现在我看到伤害一直会存在
as long as the image which I have created, 只要我自己建立的形象
which has been brought about together 被一起建立起来的形象
- as long as that exists, there will be hurt. - 只要它存在，必然有伤害。
That image is me. 那个形象就是我。
Can I look at that fact? 我能看到这个事实么？
Not as an idea looking at it, but the actual fact 不是作为一个观点来看一看，而是看到这个真切的事实，
that the image is hurt, 这个形象即是伤害，
the image is me. 这个形象即是我。
I wonder if you see? 我不知道你们是否看到了？
Right? 对么？
Could we come together on that one point at least, think together? 我们可以至少在这一点上走到一起，一同思考么？
Then what takes place? 接着会发生什么？
Before I tried, the observer tried to do something about it. 在我尝试之前，观察者就在试图对此做点什么。
Here the observer is absent, 现在观察者不在了，
therefore he can't do anything about it. 因此他什么都做不了。
You get it? 你们明白么？
You understand what has taken place? 你们明白发生了什么吗？
Before the observer exerted himself in suppressing it, 之前观察者竭力让自己去压抑它，
controlling it, not to be hurt, isolating himself, 控制它，不要受伤，隔绝自己，
resisting, and all the rest of it, 抗拒，等等所有的一切，
making a tremendous effort. 付出了巨大的努力。
But whereas when the fact is 但是当事实是
the observer is the observed, 观察者就是所观之物，
then what takes place? 那么会发生什么？
Please do you want me to tell you? 拜托，你们希望我来告诉你们么？
Then we are nowhere, then what I tell you will have no meaning. 那样我们就哪儿都到不了，那样我告诉你的就毫无意义。
But if we have come together, 但是如果我们一路同行，
think together and come to this point, 一同思考并且走到了这一点，
then you will discover for yourself 那么你就会自己去发现这一点，
that as long as you make an effort, 也就是，只要你做出努力，
there is the division. Right? 就会有分离。对么？
So, in pure observation there is no effort, 因此，在纯然的观察里没有努力，
and therefore the thing 因此那些被
which has been put together as image 拼凑起来的形象
begins to dissolve. 便开始瓦解。
That's the whole point. 这就是整个重点所在。
We began by saying 'self-awareness,' 我们从讨论“自我觉察”开始，
and the meditative quality in that awareness 这种觉察中的冥想品质
brings about a religious sense of unity. 会带来一种宗教意义上的统一。
And human beings need this enormous sense of unity 人类需要这种统一的浩瀚感觉，
which cannot be found through nationalities, 而这是无法从国家主义，
through all the rest of that business. 和其他种种事务中发现的。
So can we, as human beings, 因此我们，作为人类能否，
after listening for perhaps an hour, 在倾听了大约一个小时之后，
see at least one fact together? 能否一起看到至少一个事实？
And seeing that fact together resolve it completely, 一同看到事实，彻底地解决它，
so that we as human beings are never hurt, psychologically. 这样我们作为人类，就不再经受任何心理伤害。
In that thinking together implies 一起思考意味着
that we both of us see the same thing, 我们都看到同样的东西，
at the same time, at the same level, 在同样的时间，在同样的层面，
which means love. 这即意味着爱。
You follow, sirs? 你们理解了么，先生们？
I think that's enough for this morning, isn't it? 我觉得今天早上说这么多已经足够了，不是么？
We'll meet again tomorrow morning. 明天早上我们会再见面。 |
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发表于 2010-6-4 10:33
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发表于 2010-6-4 17:48
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