关于醒与睡以及梦

Sue

But when you have observed very closely your waking hours, all your self-centred activities, the fearful, the anxious, the guilty, when you are attentive to that all day then you will see when you sleep, you have no dreams. The mind has been watching every moment of thought, attentive to its every word, if you do it, you will see the beauty of it - not the tired boredom of watching, but the beauty of watching; you will see then that there is attention in sleep. And meditation, the thing that we have talked about during this hour, becomes extraordinarily important and worthwhile, full of dignity and grace and beauty. When you understand what attention is, not only during waking hours but also during sleep, then the whole of the mind is totally awake.
但是当你醒着的时候非常仔细地观察了你所有的自我中心行为，恐惧，焦虑，负疚，当你整个白天对这些都全然关注到的时候，那么你会发现在你睡觉的时候，你没有梦。心智已然看到了思想的每个瞬间，注意到了它的每句话，如果你做到了，你会发现它的美-不是枯燥无味的观察，而是观察的美；你会发现在睡眠中也会有注意力。而冥想，这件我们这个小时探讨的事情，变得极为重要和有价值，充满了庄严，优雅和美。当你理解了注意力是什么，不仅是在醒着的时候，而且在睡眠中，那么整个心智就是全然清醒的。

摘自BEYOND VIOLENCE PART II CHAPTER 3 SAN DIEGO STATE COLLEGE 4TH PUBLIC TALK 9TH APRIL 1970 'MEDITATION'

Sue

So silence comes about when there is profound attention, not only at the conscious level but also at the deeper levels of consciousness. Dreams and sleep are of great importance; it is part of meditation to be awake in sleep, to be aware, attentive while the mind and the body - the organism - is asleep.
所以当不仅在意识表层而且在更深的意识层面有那种深刻的全神贯注时，寂静就来临了。梦和睡眠就变得非常重要；在睡眠中保持清醒是冥想的一部分，在头脑和身体-有机体-睡着的时候觉知，保有注意力。
And during sleep there are various kinds of superficial dreams, not even worth thinking about - dreams that have no meaning at all. ... Then there is the dream which has meaning, and that meaning can be understood as it is being dreamt. This is only possible when during the day you are attentive, watching, listening to every movement of your thoughts, motives, feelings and ambitions. Watching does not tire you, does not exhaust you, if you do not correct what you watch. If you say, `This must not be' or, `It must be', then you get tired and bored. But if you watch choicelessly, are aware without like or dislike during the day, then when you dream and those dreams have some significance, at the very moment of dreaming - all dreams are active, there is always some action taking place - that very action is understood. So when you have done all this, the mind in sleep becomes extraordinarily awake and you do not have to go to an analyser of dreams. That wakefulness of the mind sees something which the conscious mind can never see.
睡眠中有很多种肤浅的梦-都不值得去想-那些梦没有任何意义。...而还有些有意义的梦，做这样的梦的时候，就能理解其意义了。这只有在白天你对思想的每个活动、动机、感受、野心都注意观察和倾听的时候才可能发生。观察并不会让你疲惫和劳累，只要你不想纠正你所看到的。如果你说，“不能这样”或者“必须这样”，那么你就会精疲力倦。但是当你白天毫无选择地观察，没有好恶地觉知，那么当你做梦的时候，那些梦就是有意义的，在做梦的那一刻-所有的梦都是活生生的，总是有某种行动在发生-就理解了那行动本身。所以当你做到所有这些的时候，睡眠中的心智变得极为清醒，你不必去找解梦者。那警醒的心智会看到醒着的头脑永远无法看到的东西。

摘自BEYOND VIOLENCE PART III CHAPTER 3 LONDON 4TH PUBLIC TALK 30TH MAY 1970 'THE RELIGIOUS MIND'

Sue

K: So, in my enquiry I am asking, am I awake? What does it mean to be awake? Not awake to what is happening politically, economically, socially, that is obvious. But awake. What does it mean? I am not awake if I have any burden. You follow, sir? There is no sense of being awake when there is any kind of fear. If I live with an illusion, if my actions are neurotic, there is no state of being awake. So I'm enquiring and I can only enquire by becoming very sensitive to what is happening in me, outside me. So is the mind aware during the day completely to what is happening inside, outside of me.
克：所以，在质询中，我问，我是清醒的吗？清醒意味着什么？不是清醒地知道政治上、经济上、社会上发生着什么，这是很明显的。而是，清醒。它是什么意思？如果我有任何负担，我就不能清醒。你明白吗，先生？有任何形式的恐惧，就不会有清醒的感觉。如果我活在幻象里，如果我的行为是神经质的，就没有清醒的状态。所以我在质询，我只有通过对我的内心和外在发生着的一切变得很敏锐，才能进行质询。所以，心智在白天是不是完全清醒，知道自己的内心和外在发生的一切事情。
     A: Upon every instant.
安：每一刻都是。
     K: That's it. Otherwise I am not awake.
克：就是这样。否则我就是不清醒的。

出处：SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA 28TH FEBRUARY 1974 17TH CONVERSATION WITH DR. ALLAN W. ANDERSON 'MEDITATION - 1'

Sue

K: Of course. Am I awake? Or is the past so alive that it is dictating my life in the present? Therefore I am asleep.
克：当然。我醒着吗？还是过去太活跃了，它在支配着我现在的生活？于是我睡着了。
     A: Would you say that again? It's very important.
安：你能再说一遍吗？这点很重要。
     K: I don't know how, I'll put it differently. Am I awake. Is my mind burdened with the past? And therefore bearing a burden I'm not awake to the present.
克：我不知道该怎么说，我换个说法。我是否清醒。我的心智是否背着过去的重负？而背负着重负，我就不能清醒地面对现在。
     A: Not awake in the present, exactly.
安：现在无法保持清醒，确实。
     K: Not awake as I am talking.
克：即使我在说话也是不清醒的。
     A: That's right.
安：对。
     K: Because I'm talking from the background of my past, of my experience, of my failures, my hurts, my depressions, therefore the past is dominating and putting me to sleep now.
克：因为我讲话出于的背景是我的过去，我的经验，我的失败，我的伤害，我的绝望，所以过去在当下控制着我，把我投入沉睡。
     A: To sleep. It's a narcotic.
安：睡去。这是种麻醉剂。
     K: Narcotic. Therefore what am I to do with the past? You follow, sir?
克：麻醉剂。所以我要拿过去怎么办？你跟上了吗，先生？
     A: Yes, I do. Yes, yes, yes.
安：是的，我跟上了。是的。
     K: Past is necessary.
克：过去是必要的。
     A: Of course, yes, the whole field of knowledge.
安：当然，是的，整个知识领域。
     K: Knowledge. Past is necessary. But when the past covers the present, then I am asleep. So is it possible to know what the past is and not let it overflow into the present? That question and the reality of it brings its own discipline. Therefore I say, yes, I know what it means. I can live, I can keep awake totally and widely and yet operate in the field of knowledge. So there is no contradiction. I don't know if I am conveying it ?
克：知识。过去是必要的。但是当过去掩盖了现在，那么我就睡着了。所以，有没有可能知道过去是什么，但是不让它淹没现在？这个问题以及它的现实会带来它自己的纪律。因此我说，是的，我知道它是什么意思。我能完全清醒地生活，保持宽广的清醒状态，同时又在知识的领域里运作。那么就没有了矛盾。我不知道我是不是表达清楚了？
     A: Oh you are. You are, you are.
安：哦，是的。你说清楚了。

出处同上。

Sue

这段也非常有启发，译文回头补上。

     K: See what is taking place. Then what is sleep? I have understood now what is means to be awake. That means I am watching. I am aware. I am aware without any choice, choiceless awareness, watching, looking, observing, hearing, what is going on and what is going outside, what people tell me, whether they flatter me, or they insult me. I am watching. So I am very aware. Now, what is sleep? I know what is sleep: resting, shutting your eyes, going to bed at 9 or 10 or later. What is sleep? And in sleep, dreams. What are dreams? I don't know what the others say. I am not interested in what the others say. You follow, sir? Because my enquiry is to find out whether meditation covers the whole field of life, not just one segment.
     A: My enquiry is from the point where I say, I don't know.
     K: I don't know. That is right. So I'll proceed. I dream. There are dreams. What are dreams? Why should I dream? So I have to find out why I dream. What are dreams? Dreams are the continuation of my daily sleep. Which is, I haven't understood - see what is taking place, sir - I have not understood my daily life. I watch my daily life. My daily life is in disorder; so I go to sleep and the disorder continues. And the brain says, I must have order otherwise I can't function. So if the mind doesn't put order during the day, the brain tries to bring order during the night.
     A: Through the dream.
     K: Through the dreams, through intimations. When I awake I say, yes I have a certain feeling this must be done. So, see what takes place. When the mind is awake during the day it has order, it establishes order, in the sense we have discussed previously.
     A: Yes. In that sense of order.
     K: Order which comes out of the understanding of disorder. The negation of disorder is order, not the following of a blueprint.
     A: No.
     K: Or a pattern, all that's disorder. So during the day, the mind, the brain has established order. So when I sleep the brain isn't working out how to establish order in itself in order to be secure. Therefore the brain becomes rested.
     A: I see.
     K: Therefore the brain becomes quiet, sleeps without dreams. It may have superficial dreams when you eat wrongly, you know, all that kind of thing. That I am not talking about. So, sleep means regeneration of the brain. I don't know if you follow?
     A: Yes, I do. I wonder if I could ask you a question about dreams here, that might introduce a distinction between dreams in terms of their nature. Sometimes we report that we've had a dream which points to future event.
     K: That's another thing.
     A: That's entirely different from what you are talking about.
     K: Yes, yes.
     A: So we could say that...
     K: Sir, that, I think we can understand that very simply. You know the other day we were walking high up in the hills in India and there was a river flowing down below. And two boats were coming in the opposite direction and you knew where they were going to meet.
     A: Of course.
     K: When you go high enough you see the boats coming together at a precise point.
     A: But that's very objective. That has nothing to do with my subjective unfinished business.
     K: No.
     A: Which is the other thing you were talking about.
     K: That's right.
     A: Yes, I quite see, I quite see. Right. What an amazing thing it would be to have all your business done and go to sleep. And if order should present you with...
     K: Yes, sir.
     A: ...an understanding.
     K: Of course.
     A: Then the understanding never stops from waking through sleeping.
     K: That's right.
     A: Yes. Of course. Of course. Marvelous. Marvelous
     K: So you see, that way the brain is regenerated, keeps young. No conflict. Conflict wears out the brain.
     A: Yes.
     K: So, sleep means not only order, rejuvenation, innocence, but also in sleep there are states in which there is absolutely freedom to enquire, to see into something which you have never seen with your eyes, physical eyes.
     A: Yes.
     K: Of course.
     A: Yes
     K: So we have described sufficiently into that. I see that. So do I - does the mind live that kind of life during the day?
     A: That would be rare.
     K: Otherwise it is not meditation.
     A: Otherwise it is not meditation, of course, of course, of course.
     K: And I don't want to play a game, a hypocritical game, because I am deceiving nobody. I am deceiving myself and I don't want to deceive myself. I don't see the point of deceiving myself because I don't want to be a great man, little man, big man, success. That's all too infantile. So I say, am I living that? If not, what is happening? And it gives me energy to live that way because I have no burden of the others. I don't know?

Sue

克：看看发生了什么。那么睡眠是什么？我现在已经明白了清醒是什么意思。那意味着我在观察。我是觉察的。我没有任何选择地觉察，无拣择的觉知，观看着，看着，观察着，倾听着，内在地外在地发生着什么，人们告诉我什么，不管他们是奉承我，还是侮辱我。我在看着。所以我很清楚很明白。那么，睡眠是什么？我知道睡觉是什么：休息，闭上眼睛，9点、10点或者更晚上床睡觉。睡眠是什么？在睡眠中，有梦。梦是什么？我不知道别人说过什么。别人说过什么我不感兴趣。你明白吗，先生？因为我质疑是为了发现冥想是不是涵盖了生命的整个领域，而不只是一部分。

安：我的质疑是从那一点开始的：我不知道。

克：我不知道。对。所以我要前进。我做梦。有梦。梦是什么？我为什么做梦？所以我得弄清楚我为什么做梦。梦是什么？梦是我每个白天昏睡的继续。那就是，我并不了解-看看发生着什么，先生-我并不了解我的日常生活。我观察我的日常生活。我的日常生活处于失序中；所以我睡觉的时候继续着那失序。而头脑说，我必须要有秩序，否则我无法运作。所以如果心智在白天无法实现秩序，头脑就试图在晚上带来秩序。

安：通过梦。

克：通过梦，通过暗示。醒着的时候我说，是的，我有种感觉这件事必须要做。所以，看看什么发生了。当心智在白天醒着的时候，就有秩序，建立了秩序，我们之前探讨的那种意义上的秩序。

安：是的。那种意义上的秩序。

克：来自于对失序的了解的秩序。否定失序就是秩序，而不是根据一幅蓝图的秩序。

安：不是的。

克：也不是某种模式的秩序，那些都是失序。所以在白天，心智，头脑，建立起了秩序。所以当我睡觉的时候，头脑不去努力建立自身的秩序以获取安全。这样头脑就得到了休息。

安：我明白了。

克：所以头脑变得安静，睡觉的时候没有梦。如果吃的东西不对，可能有浅层的梦，你知道这些东西。我说的不是这些。所以，睡眠意味着头脑的新生。我不知道你跟上了没？

安：是的，我明白。我想知道我能不能在这里问你一个关于梦的问题，这可能会根据梦的性质引入梦的一种区分。我们有时候会说我们做的一些梦预言了未来发生的事情。

克：那是另外一回事。

安：跟你说的完全不同。

克：是的，是的。

安：那么我们能不能说...

克：先生，这点，我想我们很容易就能理解。你知道在印度有一天我们爬到很高的山上，下面有一条河在流。有两艘船相向驶来，你知道它们会在哪里会合。

安：当然。

克：当你站得够高你会发现两艘船会精确地在某点相遇。

安：但那是非常客观的。那与我主观上没做完的事情无关。

克：无关。

安：那是你在谈的另一回事。

克：对。

安：是的，我很明白，我很明白。对。白天把所有事情做完，然后去睡觉，那是多么了不起的一件事啊。如果秩序能给你一种...

克：是的，先生。

安：...一种了解。

克：当然。

安：然后那了解从醒到睡从未停止过。

克：对。

安：是的。当然。当然。非常了不起。

克：所以你看，头脑就这样新生了，保持年轻。没有冲突。冲突会耗尽头脑。

安：是的。

克：所以，睡眠不仅意味着秩序，新生，单纯，而且在睡眠中有种状态，你能完全自由地去探索，去发现你的眼睛，你的肉眼从未见到过的东西。

安：是的。

克：当然。

安：是的。

克：所以这点我们阐述得已经很充分了。我看到了。那么我能不能-心智能不能在白天就过这样的一种生活？

安：那很少见。

克：否则就不是冥想。

安：否则就不是冥想，当然，当然。

克：可是我不想游戏，玩虚伪的游戏，因为我不想欺骗任何人。我在欺骗我自己，而我不想欺骗我自己。我看不出欺骗我自己有什么好，因为我也不想成为一个伟大的人，小人物，大人物，成功。这都太幼稚了。所以我说，我是在这样生活吗？如果不是，那么发生了什么？那样的生活给了我能量，因为我再也没有其他的负担。我不知道（我说明白了没）？

（出处同上）

李瑞

多年之后回顾一下，好