K: What shall we talk about?
克：我们应该谈些什么呢？
S: I think during the last talks...
学生：我想在上几次谈话中...
...we have talked about the question of intelligence...
...我们已经谈到了智慧的问题...
...a bit we have touched it...
...我们仅仅是谈到了一点点...
...and how to bring intelligence to our life...
...以及如何将智慧带入我们的生活...
...so that somehow intelligence operates in our life.
...那么一定程度上，智慧能在我们的生活当中运作。
And I wonder if we could pursue that.
我们可不可以来探索一下这个问题。
K: Right. Any other questions?
克：好的。还有其它的问题吗？
S: When and why will a human being genuinely ask what is intelligence?
学：何时以及为什么一个人会真诚地询问什么是智慧？
Related to his question.
这也和他前面的问题相关。
K: Why do we ask...
克：为什么我们会问...
S: And when. K: When do we ask...
学：以及何时会问。克：我们何时会问...
...what is intelligence?
...什么是智慧？
S: Genuinely ask. K: Yes.
学：真诚地问。克：好的。
Any other questions?
还有其它的问题吗？
S: I wonder, what is the morning meeting for?
学：我想问，这个早晨的聚会到底是什么目的？
K: Good lord! (Laughter)
克：天哪！（笑声）
Any other?
还有别的问题吗？
S: Why do you give these talks?
学：你为什么要讲演？
K: Why do you give talks. S: Yes. (Laughter)
克：你为什么讲演。学：是的。（笑声）
K: Would you like me to shut up? (Laughter)
克：你们希望我闭嘴吗？（笑声）
S: No. What is the purpose...
学：不是。你讲演的目的是什么...
...if you have any purpose for giving these talks?
...如果你的讲演有任何目的的话。
K: Why do I talk?
克：我为什么要讲演？
I really - no, I mustn't go into... (Laughter)
我真的-不，我不能深入这个....（笑声）
Is that all?
就是这些问题吗？
S: How do you know all the things that you are speaking about?
学：你是如何知道你所谈论的一切的？
S: How do you know when you start becoming intelligent?
学：当你开始变得智慧时你是怎么知道的？
K: Yes - how do you know all that you are talking about.
克：好-你是如何知道你所谈论的一切的。
Not from books...
不是从书本上学来的...
...not from other people.
...不是从其他人那里得来的。
The ancient books, or the modern books, modern philosophy and so on.
古老的，现代的典籍里，现代的哲学里等等，都没有答案。
I'll explain all this a little later as we go along.
在我们一会儿进行的讨论中我会解释所有的问题。
May I?
可以吗？
Any other questions?
还有其它问题吗？
S: How do you know when you start beginning...
学：你是如何知道你已经开始...
...to get intelligence, start becoming intelligent?
...拥有智慧，开始变得充满智慧的？
K: How do you know what intelligence is.
克：你如何知道什么是智慧。
S: No, in yourself when you start to become more intelligent.
学：不，你自身，当你开始变得更有智慧的时候。
S: How can you tell you are becoming intelligent.
学：你如何知道你正在变得有智慧。
K: We will find out presently.
克：我们等一下会找出答案。
We were driving the other day...
前几天，我们开着车...
...nearly two weeks ago, along the Pacific coast of California.
...差不多两周前，我们驾车沿着加州的太平洋海岸行驶。
It was a lovely morning.
那是一个非常宜人的早晨。
It had rained, and generally in California it doesn't rain...
天刚刚下过雨，而加州几乎是不下雨的...
...that part of the year, and it was a really lovely morning.
...在一年当中的这个季节，那真是一个非常宜人的早晨。
There wasn't a cloud in the sky.
天空一片云都没有。
And the Pacific was blue, light blue, so calm, like a great lake.
太平洋是蓝色的，浅蓝色，看起来那么平静，像一面美丽的湖水。
It was not the same dark blue of the Mediterranean...
与地中海的深蓝色不同...
...but it was a light blue, and the sun was just touching it...
...它是浅蓝色，并且太阳正从海平面上缓缓升起...
...making a great light on the sea.
...在海面上洒下了美丽的光。
And in front of our car - Mrs Zimbalist was driving...
在车的前座--金保李斯特夫人在驾驶...
...and it was a good car, and on the bumper there was a sticker.
...那是一部好车，在车的保险杠上粘着一张贴纸。
The sticker said, 'Question authority'.
贴纸上写着：“质疑权威”。
So we are going to question authority this morning. (Laughter)
所以我们今天早晨要来质疑权威。（笑声）
And in questioning authority...
并且在质疑权威的过程中...
...we are going to find out for ourselves...
...我们将要依靠自己来找出答案...
...in the understanding of the very complex problem of authority...
...当我们理解权威这个复杂的问题时...
...we'll begin to see what is, for ourselves, what is intelligence.
...我们将依靠自己弄明白什么是智慧。
Why we follow, why we accept, why we obey...
我们为何遵循他人，为何接受，为何服从...
...whether authority and the acceptance...
...是否权威和接受权威...
...of authority leads to intelligence.
...能带来智慧。
We are going to talk it over together. Right?
我们将要共同来探讨这个问题，对吗？
Right.
好的。
Do you question authority?
你们质疑权威吗？
You know what that word means?
你们知道这个词的含义吗？
We won't go into the root meaning of that word...
我们不讨论这个词的词根含义...
...the etymological meaning, but authority.
...或者语源学含义，而是讨论什么是权威。
There are various kinds of authority.
我们有各种各样的权威。
Right?
对不对？
The authority of the government, however rotten that government is...
政府的权威，不管这个政府本身有多么腐败...
...the authority of totalitarian governments...
...各个极权政府的权威...
...the authority of the policeman...
...警察的权威...
...the authority of a lawyer, the authority of a judge...
...律师的权威，法官的权威...
...the authority of the pope, the authority of a priest.
...教皇的权威，牧师的权威。
Right?
对不对？
All those are outside, outside the skin.
这些权威都是外部的权威，体肤之外的。
But inwardly, inside the skin...
但是我们的内在，在体肤之内...
...there is the authority of experience...
...我们有经验这个权威...
...of one's own experience, one's own convictions.
...每个人各自的经验，各自确信的事物。
Right? Are you following all this?
对不对？你们能明白这些吗？
Authority of one's own opinions...
每个人各自的想法这个权威...
...authority of one's own convictions...
...每个人所确信的事物也是权威...
...'I am convinced I am a great man' - that becomes the authority.
...“我确信我是个了不起的人物”--这样的想法会成为某种权威。
'I am convinced I am a good poet'...
“我确信我是个优秀的诗人”...
...whereas I may be a rotten poet but I am convinced.
...虽然我可能是个差劲的诗人，却坚信自己是优秀的。
I am convinced about so many things.
我对如此多的事情都抱持确信的态度。
So experience, knowledge become one of the sources of authority.
所以经验，知识变成了权威的来源之一。
Right? Are you following?
对不对？你们能够理解吗？
Because we are examining a very complex problem...
因为我们正在探索一个非常复杂的问题...
...the problem of authority.
...这个权威的问题。
The authority of the parents...
家长的权威...
...the authority of tradition...
...传统中的权威...
...the authority of the majority of the voters.
...表决中占大多数的人的权威...
Right? The authority of the specialist...
对不对？专家的权威...
...the authority of the scientist - there are several of them here...
...科学家的权威--我们当中就有一些科学家权威...
...the authority of the Bible and the Indian so-called sacred books...
...圣经的权威，在印度是那些所谓神圣典籍的权威...
...(inaudible) and so on - the Koran; you know what the Koran is...
...(难以听清的)等等--可兰经的权威；你们都知道可兰经是什么...
...the Bible of the Islam, of Islamic world, the Mohammedan world...
...伊斯兰教的圣经，在他们的伊斯兰世界，回教的世界...
...they accept that completely, obey.
...他们完完全全地接受，服从可兰经。
So there are many, many forms of authority.
所以我们有各种各样形式的权威。
Right?
对不对？
Now, what do you question...
那么，你们要质疑什么呢...
...when you question authority what are you questioning?
...当你们质疑权威时，你质疑的是什么？
The authority of rules...
质疑各种规则的权威吗...
...the authority of those educators who tell you, inform you?
...质疑那些向你传道授业的教育者的权威吗？
Now, please discuss this with me...
那么，请你们和我来一起讨论这个问题...
...because in enquiring very carefully step by step...
...因为在一步一步地仔细探索询问中...
...I'm going deeper and deeper into this question...
...我们将越来越深入到这个问题当中...
...you will yourself begin to awaken your own intelligence.
...你们将会开始唤醒你们自身的智慧。
You understand?
你们理解吗？
Your own perception, your own...
你们自己的理解，你们依靠自己...
...how to look at things intelligently, without authority.
...了解如何智慧地观察事物，而不受权威影响。
Is this clear? Have I made my statement clear?
这些清楚吗？我所讲的内容是否清楚呢？
You are clear? S: Yes.
你清楚吗？学：是的。
K: Good! Are you quite sure?
克：很好！你非常确定吗？
The authority that exists outside of us...
那些存在于我们之外的权威...
...law, governments, the majority of people...
...法律，政府，占大多数的人们...
...who vote for a prime minister...
...曾投票给某个首相的大多数...
...the authority of the policeman, the authority of a lawyer...
...警察的权威，律师的权威...
...the authority of a surgeon...
...外科医生的权威...
...the scientists who are building the nuclear bomb...
...那些正在制造核弹的科学家们的权威...
...the authority of the totalitarian states and so on - outside.
...极权主义国家的权威，等等，这些外部的权威。
Inside of us, I say, 'I know'...
在我们内心，我说，“我知道”...
...that becomes the authority.
...那便成为了一种权威。
Or I am convinced, I am quite sure my opinion is correct.
或者我确信某事，我确信我的想法是正确的。
I am quite sure my experience tells me what to do.
我确信我的经验会指导我该做些什么。
That becomes the authority.
这就变成了权威。
Or I practise a certain discipline...
或者我遵行某种规则...
...and that has become my authority.
...然后规则就变成了我的权威。
You understand?
你们明白吗？
So, we are going to question all this.
所以，我们要来质疑这一切。
The outer and the inner...
外在和内在的权威...
...the environment and the psychological realm.
...周边环境中以及心理领域的权威。
Clear? Now, let's proceed.
明白吗？那么，我们开始吧。
We are going to question, not say it is right or wrong...
我们要来质疑，而不是说这是对的或者错的...
...but enquire, question, doubt, ask.
...而是询问，质疑，怀疑，提出问题。
Now let's begin.
那么我们现在开始。
The authority of the policeman.
警察的权威。
Right?
对吗？
Do you question that?
你们质疑过警察的权威吗？
S: Isn't it necessary? K: But question it first.
学：难道那不是必须的吗？克：但是请你先质疑。
Don't accept, don't say it is necessary.
不要接受，不要说那是必须的。
You see, you have already accepted authority.
你看，你已然接受了权威。
S: Yes, but there's not very much that we can do about it.
学：是的，但是我们似乎对此无能为力。
K: No, you can't do anything about it.
克：是的，你们是无能为力。
S: We don't want that kind of authority. You can't...
学：我们并不想要那样的权威。你不能...
K: You don't want that kind of authority?
克：你们不想要那种权威吗？
Suppose I have been driving in France on the right side of the road...
假设我在法国驾车一直是在马路的右侧行驶着...
...and I come here, I am used to driving a car...
...我来到英国，我已经习惯了在驾车时...
...on the right side of the road...
...把车开在马路的右侧...
...in France, in Austria and so on...
...在法国，奥地利等等都是右侧驾驶...
...and I come here and I keep to that side. Right?
...到了英国我想保持右驾。对吗？
To the right side, and I'll... there will be accidents.
保持右侧驾驶，那么我会...这样就会造成交通事故。
Right? So I must... the policeman says, 'Hey, get back...
对不对？所以我必须...警察说，“嘿，回来...
...go to the left'. But if I insist...
...开到左边去”。但是如果我仍然坚持...
...on keeping to the right he will give me a ticket.
...把车开在右侧，警察就会给我开一张罚单。
So I accept the authority of a policeman who tells me...
所以我接受了一名警察的权威，他告诉我...
...'You are driving in the wrong lane...
...“你的车正开在错误的线路上...
...please kindly go to the left'...
...恳请你开到左侧去”...
...because that is the custom, that is the law in this country.
...因为那是此地的习惯，那是这个国家的法律。
Right?
对不对？
S: That's quite sensible. K: That's quite sensible - it is.
学：那是很明智的。克：那是很明智的-的确是。
Now, then the authority of governments.
那么，接下来是政府的权威。
This is much more complex.
这是个更加复杂的问题。
The authority of the government says, you must become a soldier.
政府的权威说，你必须参军服役。
In Europe you have to become a soldier for two years...
在欧洲人们不得不在军队中服役两年...
...fortunately not for women.
...幸运的是，女人不用服军役。
In Switzerland, in France, in all the European countries...
在瑞士，法国，在所有的欧洲国家...
...you have for two years you have to be a soldier.
...人们必须有两年的时间去服役军中。
Do you accept that authority?
你们接受这样的权威吗？
S: If you don't, is there anything... K: No, just think it out...
学：如果你不接受，有什么...克：不，好好考虑一下...
...look at it carefully.
...认真地观察。
They say, 'We have to protect our country'.
他们说，“我们必须要保护我们的国家”。
Right?
对不对？
In case of war we are prepared to fight the enemy.
如果战争爆发，我们要准备好与敌人作战。
Have you ever heard of that phrase, a General says...
你是否听到过这样的话，一个将军说...
...'We have met the enemy - it is us'.
...“我们已经遇到了敌人--那就是我们自己”。
Have you heard of that phrase?
你们听到过这个说法吗？
Have you understood that phrase?
你们能够理解这句话的含义吗？
We have met the enemy - it's us.
我们已经遇到了敌人--那就是我们自己。
We are the enemy to ourselves.
我们就是自己的敌人。
Sorry!
抱歉！
So find out.
那么请你们来找出答案。
The government says - all governments...
政府说--所有的政府...
...the most inefficient government also says...
...最无能的政府也会说...
...'You must fight for the country'.
...“你必须为你的国家而战”。
There is a tremendous authority.
那是一种极大的权威。
Right?
对不对？
What's your response to that?
你们对于这样的权威作何反应？
S: If I was in that situation, and I was, say, a Swiss citizen...
学：如果我身处那样的境地，譬如说我是一个瑞士公民，我会...
...and I am asked to join the army, I wouldn't do it.
...如果我被要求服军役，我不会接受的。
K: Then you would go to prison. S: No, I'd go to another country.
克：那么你就要进监狱了。学：我会到其它的国家去。
K: (Laughs) They won't let you. S: Well, there are ways.
克：（笑声）他们不允许你去。学：但是总会有办法的。
K: Oh, yes. But you can never go back to your country again.
克：哦，是的。但是从此你永远无法回到你的国家了。
S: Yes.
学：是的。
K: I know several people who have done this.
克：我认识一些这样做的人。
But they can never go back to their own country.
但是他们再也无法回去自己的祖国了。
Is that the answer?
这是问题的解决方法吗？
Question, question what you are saying.
质疑，质疑你所说的话。
S: Perhaps to some degree it is.
学：或许某种程度上那是个解决方法。
K: I said, question, sir.
克：我说了，先生，质疑。
Question what you will do...
质疑你将要采取的行动...
...when governments says, 'You must become'...
...当政府说，“你必须成为军人”...
...you are conscripted, drafted...
...你被征入伍了，被征募了...
...as they use the word in America - drafted...
...在美国他们使用那个词-被征募了...
...here the word is 'conscripted', and you are asked to join the army.
...在这里人们用“应征入伍”，政府要求你加入军队。
That is supreme authority.
那是最高的权威。
Do you question that?
你们质疑它吗？
S: By question, do you mean where authority comes from?
学：你说质疑，是指质疑权威来自何处吗？
K: No. The government says you must.
克：不是。政府说你必须服役。
S: OK, what exactly do you mean by question?
学：好的，那么你说质疑究竟是什么意思？
K: I mean by question...
克：我说的质疑是指...
...we are questioning authority - you understand?
...我们正在质疑权威--明白吗？
S: It's not clear, I don't understand.
学：不清楚，我不明白。
K: I've explained, sir, haven't I, haven't we?
克：我已经解释了，先生，难道不是吗？我还没说清楚？
I told you the sticker in California...
我告诉过你们，加州的那张贴纸...
...it said, 'Question authority'.
...贴纸上写着，“质疑权威”。
That means - do you accept authority?
那意味着--你们接受权威吗？
Where do you accept authority...
你们何种情况下接受权威...
...where do you disregard authority? Right?
...何种情况下反对权威？对吗？
Now, the government says to you, as you are a young man...
现在，政府对你说，由于你已经是个成年的年轻人了...
...or going to be when you are 18, 19, 20...
...或许你已经18，19或者20岁了...
...says, 'You must become a soldier for two years'.
...他们说，“你必须要应征入伍两年时间”。
And they give you other alternatives, which are rather boring...
并且他们会提出一些其它的选择，这些选择会相当无聊...
...or when there is a war all the people...
...或者，如果有战争爆发，所有的人...
...grown up boys and young men are conscripted.
...成年男孩子，年轻人都会被征募入伍。
There is that authority of the government.
那是一种政府的权威。
Do you question that authority?
你们质疑那个权威吗？
S: Yes, but what can you do about it?
学：是的。但是你能怎么办呢？
K: You are going to find out. We are going to find out.
克：你们会找到答案的。我们来一起发现它。
But first question, is that what you will do when somebody...
但是首先质疑，当有人，当政府要求你成为一名军人...
...government asks you to become a soldier?
...你将会那样去做吗？
This is a very complex problem, I don't know if you can...
这是一个非常复杂的问题，我不知道你是否可以...
...go into this.
...深入地探索它。
They say, 'We must protect our country'. Right?
他们说，“我们必须保护我们的国家”。对不对？
So you have to question, what is our country?
所以你必须要质疑，什么是我们的国家？
S: It's all that we know around us, our language...
学：国家是我们所了解的周围的一切，我们的语言...
K: Which means what? S: That which we are familiar with.
克：那意味着什么？学：就是我们所熟悉的一切。
K: Take, for instance, England says to you...
克：打个比方，英格兰对你说...
...the British government says to you...
...英国政府对你说...
...'We are going to be attacked by somebody...
...“某人将会袭击我们的国家...
...and you must train yourself...
...而你必须训练你自己...
...carry a gun and all the rest of it, and fight'.
...随身配枪以及所有的手段，然后去作战”。
Now what's your response?
那么你将作何反应？
Poor chaps!
可怜的孩子们！
S: You probably wouldn't want to. K: Probably you don't want to.
学：你可能不愿意那样做。克：可能你并不愿意那样做。
Then they either, if you are in Russia, or in other countries...
那么，如果你身处俄罗斯，或者其它的国家...
...they shoot you.
...他们就会枪毙你。
Or they say, 'If you don't want to, what is your reason?'
或者他们问，“如果你不愿意服军役，你的理由是什么？”
S: You don't want to kill another man.
学：你不想去杀人。
You don't want to kill another human being.
你不想去杀死另外一个人类。
K: So is that your conviction?
克：那么这是你坚定的信仰吗？
S: No, I think... K: Careful. I am asking a question.
学：不，我认为...克：认真地考虑。我正提出问题。
He says, you don't want to kill another human being.
他说，你不想杀死另外一个人类。
Is that your conviction, is that your religion?
这是你坚定的信仰吗？这是你的宗教信仰吗？
Do your parents also... are religious that way?
你的父母也是信仰这样的宗教吗？
They ask all these questions, old boy, I am not inventing them.
他们会问诸如此类的所有问题，孩子，这些问题不是我发明出来的。
S: What's the point of killing somebody else?
学：为什么要杀死其他的人？
K: What is the point of killing people?
克：为什么要杀人？
They have done this for 5000 years...
人类已经这样杀戮五千年了...
...and more.
...还不止五千年。
The Greeks did it, the Egyptians did it...
希腊人是这样，埃及人是这样...
...the Sumerians and Babylonians and so on, so on, so on.
...还有苏美尔人和古巴比伦人，等等，等等。
Great empires were formed that way, killing people.
伟大的帝国都是这样建立起来的，通过杀戮。
The British empire which lasted a 150 years...
大英帝国强盛了150年...
...not like the Persian Empire, or the Greek, or the Egyptian...
...和波斯帝国不同，和希腊人，埃及人也不同...
...the Egyptian civilization for 3000 years, undisturbed.
...埃及的文明延续了三千年，从未受到干扰。
So, people have been killing each other...
所以，人类不断地彼此杀戮...
...for the last 5000 years and more.
...在过去的五千年甚至更长的时间里。
So what's your answer?
那么你的回答是什么？
S: Perhaps you just become a soldier.
学：或者你干脆去当个军人算了。
Perhaps you become a soldier...
或许你成为一个军人...
...but not the attitude of you doing it for your country...
...但是不秉持为你的国家而战斗的态度...
...and not with…Because if you protest...
...而不是...因为如果你抗议...
...the very fact that you are protesting...
...仅仅是你在抗议这件事情...
...in a sense that becomes your own belief, your fire.
...从某种程度上，就变成了你的信念，你的热情。
K: So you become a soldier and you are ready to kill?
克：那么你成为一名军人，并且准备好了去杀人吗？
S: No. K: He said so.
学：不是。克：他是这么说的。
He said you might become a soldier.
他说你可以成为一个军人。
That means you are prepared to kill for your country.
这就意味着他做好了为国家杀人的准备。
Right? Wait, wait, wait, go slowly.
对不对？等一下，等一下，我们慢慢来。
What's your country, what do you mean, your country?
什么是你的国家，你说“你的国家”，究竟是什么意思？
We are questioning everything, you understand?
我们正在质疑所有的一切，你们明白吗？
What do you mean, your country?
你说“你的国家”，究竟是什么意思？
S: It's the American way, this is the way its done.
学：这是美国的方式，这就是人们处理的方式。
S: I mean you don't go in it patriotically...
学：我的意思是不要以爱国主义的姿态去参军...
...if you don't, perhaps, you will be put in prison.
...如果你不去服兵役，或许你就必须进监狱。
K: I know. You don't go in patriotically...
克：我知道。你不是出于爱国应征入伍...
...you don't go in for your personal reasons...
...你应征入伍并非由于私人的原因...
...but you are going to kill people.
...但是你将要去杀人。
S: We tend not to, we don't kill anybody, just carry a gun. (Laughter)
学：我们不愿意，我们不杀任何人，我们只是带把枪。（笑声）
K: Then they kill you. All right.
克：那么他们会杀了你。好的。
I know a man who became a soldier, he was forced...
我认识一个军人，他是被迫入伍的...
...and the officer said, 'We are going to the front'...
...军官对他说，“我们要去前线了”...
...and the soldier, this friend of mine said...
...这个军人，我的这个朋友说...
...'All right, but when I get to the front you are the officer...
...“好的，但是当我到了前线，你是军官...
...I am going to shoot you first...
...我将开枪第一个杀了你...
...because you have forced me to that position'.
...因为是你把我逼到如此地步的”。
And they said, 'This man is crazy'...
于是他们说，“这个人疯了”...
...and they had psychologists and the psychiatrists who examined...
...于是他们叫来了心理学专家和精神病医生给他检查...
...but he kept on repeating that...
...但是我的朋友不断重复那些话...
...so they said, 'Get back home'. (Laughter)
...于是他们说，“让他回家去吧”。（笑声）
But don't play tricks like that.
但是不要耍那样的小聪明。
So, you understand, we're questioning - you are not questioning.
所以，你们明白了，我们正在质疑--你们没有在质疑。
I am sent, the Indian government...
我也接到了通知，来自印度的政府...
...fortunately they can't, I am too old...
...幸运的是他们不能招募我，因为我太老了...
...they questioned me, as an Indian, and said, 'You must become...
...作为一个印度人，他们质问我，对我说，“你必须成为...
...a soldier and you must protect your country'.
...一名军人，你必须保护你的国家”。
I questioned and said, 'What is my country...
我质疑这一点，问道：“什么是我的国家...
...what do you mean my country?'
...你说“我的国家”究竟是什么意思？”
Right? Question it.
对不对？质疑它。
Who says it's my country?
谁说这是我的国家？
S: Yes, but they won't listen to that.
学：是的，但是他们不会听取这些的。
K: I am questioning myself, forget what the government says.
克：我正在质疑我自己，不要管政府说什么。
S: What do you mean by your country?
学：你说你的国家是什么意思？
K: That's what I am asking. (Laughter)
克：我就是在问这个问题。（笑声）
S: The country that you were born in is supposed to be your country.
学：你出生的那个国家应该就是你的国家。
K: Where you are born.
克：你出生的地方。
S: Yes, that's supposed to be your country.
学：是的，那里应该是你的国家。
K: That is supposed to be your country.
克：那里应该是我的国家。
Why do I say, 'It's my country'?
为什么我要说，“那是我的国家”？
S: Because you've lived there and...
学：因为你在那里生活并且...
K: Yes, and you say, it's your country.
克：是的，那么你就说那是你的国家。
And I say, 'It's my country'. Right?
于是我说，“那是我的国家”。是这样吗？
Why do we say this?
我们为什么这么说？
Why do grown-up people say this...
成年人为什么这样说...
...and the young people say it...
...年轻人为什么这样说...
...and it has been the tradition of thousands of years...
...而且这样的传统已经延续了几千年...
...it's my country, I am going to protect it...
...因为这是我的国家，所以我要保护它...
...it's your country, you are going to protect it...
...那是你的国家，所以你要保护你的国家...
...let's kill each other.
...让我们互相杀戮吧。
S: Because they want to possess it...
学：因为他们想拥有一个自己的国家...
...and if that possession is threatened by another country...
...如果这种拥有受到另一个国家的威胁...
...who feel possessive to their country...
...他们就会感到对自己国家的占有欲...
...then you obviously are going to try to fight to possess your country.
...接着他们就一定会试图与他国作战以拥有自己的国家。
K: I know. So you are willing to kill for your...
克：我明白。那么说你愿意为了你的拥有而杀人...
S: No.
学：不愿意。
S: If that other country, Russia...
学：如果另外那个国家，俄罗斯...
...if we had a war and they took over our country...
...如果我们之间爆发战争，而且他们接管了我们的国家...
K: May I ask your name? S: Tessa.
克：可以请问你的名字吗？学：泰莎。
K: Sasha? S: Tessa.
克：萨莎？学：泰莎。
K: Ah, Tessa! (Laughter)
克：噢，泰莎！（笑声）
You are not following step by step into this.
你没有一步一步地跟入这个问题。
What is my country? Why have the world...
什么是我的国家？为什么这个世界...
...the earth has been divided into my country, your country - why?
...这个地球被分割成我的国家，你的国家-为什么会这样？
S: It's always that - my book, not your book.
学：人类一贯如此--这是我的书，而不是你的。
K: No. So go on, question all this, sir, don't...
克：不。请你继续，质疑这一切，先生，不要...
Why? Why have human beings for thousands of years have said...
为什么？为什么几千年来人类一直说...
...'This is my country, and that's your country'.
...“这是我的国家，而那是你的国家”。
S: Well, you have... K: Why? Why?
学：嗯，你已经...克：为什么？为什么？
S: OK. Well, you have dark skin, I have light skin...
学：好的，是这样，你的皮肤是深色的，我的皮肤是浅色的...
...you speak that language and I speak this language and...
...你说那种语言，我说这种语言，还有...
...there's a group of people around me who speak the same language...
...我周围有一群人和我说一样的语言...
...and a group of people around you speak your language...
...你的周围有一群人和你说一样的语言...
...and look the same as you. That's your country and I am in my country.
...而且和你是一样的肤色。你们有你们的国家，我有我的。
K: Why have we done this? S: Well, because you look different.
克：我们为什么这么做？学：嗯，因为你长得不一样。
K: All right. S: And language.
克：好的。学：还有语言不一样。
K: No. Are we different?
克：不。我们不同吗？
S: No, it's just they scare you... K: Answer him.
学：不，只是他们恐吓你...克：回答他。
I am black... S: On the surface, yes.
我的皮肤是黑色的...学：表面上看，是的。
K: ...you are pink or blue. (Laughter)
克...你的肤色是粉红的或者蓝色的。（笑声）
I'm sorry.
我很抱歉。
I am black and you are pink, or white, or whatever it is.
我是黑皮肤，你是粉红皮肤，或者是白皮肤，或者不管其它什么颜色。
Now, for that reason we fight each other?
那么，我们要因为这样的原因而战吗？
S: Yes, and you believe in that... K: No, no, just... begin slowly, sir.
学：是的，而且你相信这些...克：不，不，仅仅是...慢慢讨论，先生。
Do you kill me and I kill you because...
我们彼此杀戮是因为...
...I am black and you are fairly near approaching white - why?
...我是黑皮肤，而你仅仅是接近白色的皮肤吗--为什么呢？
S: Because... K: No, question, sir.
学：因为...克：不，质疑，先生。
Don't answer, question first.
不要回答，首先质疑。
S: I don't think so because...
学：我认为不是这样的，因为...
...I think it's my book and it's a very precious book...
...我认为这是我的书，而且是一本非常珍贵的书...
...and my friend said, 'It is my book', and I kill him for my book.
...然而我的朋友说，”这是我的书“，于是我就因为这本书杀了他。
K: Yes. So...
克：是的，那么...
S: And I think it's not because he is black and I am white.
学：我认为那并非因为他是黑皮肤而我是白皮肤。
K: Quite right.
克：非常正确。
So, what do you say? Go on.
那么，你认为是因为什么？继续说。
Why do we do that? S: Because...
为什么我们会互相杀戮。学：因为...
K: Question it, I am questioning you; you are not questioning it yourself.
克：质疑它，我在质疑你；但是你自己没有在质疑。
S: Is it not a natural response to want to possess something?
学：难道想要去拥有某物不是人类正常的反应吗？
K: Yes, that's a natural response.
克：是的，那是正常的反应。
Where does it begin, when does it begin?
这种倾向起于何处，又起于何时？
Careful, question, question...
用心地，质疑，质疑...
...don't accept anything natural and say, 'It is natural', and stick.
...不要接受任何看似正常的事物，然后说，“那是正常的”，然后坚持它。
Question why it is natural. S: I don't think a baby...
质疑为什么它是正常的。学：我认为一个婴儿不会...
K: That's it, begin with the baby. (Laughter)
克：是这样的，从婴儿开始。（笑声）
That's quite right, begin with the small baby.
这样非常好，从非常幼小的婴儿谈起。
You give him a toy, and he holds it. Right?
你给他一个玩具，他会紧抓不放。对不对？
And the other baby says... and he pulls it away. Right?
然后另一个孩子说...然后他就把玩具拿走。对不对？
Haven't you seen this?
难道你们没有见过这样的场景吗？
So, there it begins.
那么，就是从那里开始的。
Mine and yours, and we build this up.
我的和你的，而且我们不断加强这种模式。
S: It makes you feel safe...
学：那让你觉得安全...
...you feel threatened when other people want it...
...当其他人想要你的东西时，你觉得受到威胁了...
...so you're going to... K: That's right.
...所以你就会...克：是这样的。
So I am saying we build this up gradually as we grow older...
所以我说，随着我们的年龄增长，我们也在不断加强这种模式...
...this is mine and that is yours.
...这是我的，那是你的。
And I am going to hold to mine, and you hold to yours.
并且，我要抓住我的，你要抓住你的。
So what does it all mean? Question this.
那么这究竟意味着什么？质疑这一点。
I say, 'It is my country'...
我说，“这是我的国家”...
...and you say it's your country.
...你说这是你的国家。
Question why people say that.
质疑人们为何这样说。
S: Well perhaps through repetition and through education, you see one has...
学：嗯，可能是通过人云亦云，还有教育，你知道一个人...
K: Of course, through education...
克：当然，通过教育...
...through history, through propaganda...
...通过历史，通过宣传...
...through everything you come to the point when you are so conditioned...
...通过所有的一切，以至于，你变得非常局限...
...you say, 'It's my country and your country'.
...你说，“这是我的国家，也是你的国家”。
S: Because perhaps...
学：因为可能...
K: Question. Question first.
克：质疑。首先质疑。
S: Is it not a matter of security? K: Security.
学：难道这不是安全的问题吗？克：安全。
Now, you understand what Mr Smith said...
现在你理解了史密斯先生所说的...
...it is a matter of security.
...这是一个安全的问题。
I feel secure with my family - right?
当我和家人在一起时我感觉到安全-对不对？
...my father, my brother, my sister, my aunts...
...我的父亲，我的兄弟，我的姐妹，我的姑姑们...
...I feel they will protect me, they are part of me - right? - the family.
...我认为他们会保护我，他们是我的一部分--对不对？--我的家庭。
Then increase it, the community - right?
接着扩张开去，到一个团体-对不对？
...move it still further - the nation.
...再继续扩张下去--成为了一个国家。
Right? I identify myself first with the family...
对不对？首先，我把自己和家人认同在一起...
...then with the community, with the society...
...然后是和某个团体认同在一起，和社会...
...then with the nation - 'I am British'.
...接着和国家认同在一起，说，--“我是一个英国人”。
Right?
对不对？
That means I feel secure.
这就意味着我感到安全。
Right?
对不对？
We agree to that?
我们能同意这一点吗？
You are quite sure?
你们非常确定吗？
I feel secure when I say, 'I am British'...
当我说“我是英国人”时，我感到安全...
...and the Frenchman says, 'I am French'.
...一个法国人会说，“我是法国人”。
He is completely secure...
他感到完完全全地安全...
...the language, the custom, the tradition...
...与人们说同种语言，拥有共同的习俗传统...
...the intellectual approach and so on and so on...
...采用相同的智力思维方式，等等，等等...
...French and English, and the German says the same thing.
...法国人，英国人还有德国人都持同样的观点。
Right?
对不对？
That is they all want security, all of them.
也就是，他们都想获得安全，所有的人。
Right? Agree?
对不对？你们同意吗？
You are questioning, they all want security.
你们来质疑，是否他们所有人都渴望安全。
S: And they are willing to kill for that.
学：并且他们愿意为此而杀戮。
K: That's it. So each person says, 'This is my security...
克：是这样的。所以每个人都说，“这是我的安全...
...and your security, so we are going to fight'.
...那是你的安全，所以我们将要为此一战”。
Which means what?
这一切又意味着什么呢？
S: But then your life is threatened, so...
学：但是你的生命因此受到了威胁，所以...
K: Yes. So there is no security.
克：是的。所以根本就没有安全。
Right?
对不对？
Look at it carefully first.
首先认真地观察这一点。
S: Then your security has been completely psychological security.
学：那么说，你的安全一直是一种心理上的安全。
K: That's it. That's it.
克：是这样的。是这样的。
S: Nothing having to do with actually what's happening.
学：与正在确实发生的一切毫无关系。
K: That's right.
克：是这样的。
So, now, haven't you learnt something...
那么，现在，难道你们不是已经领悟了一些什么吗...
...haven't you become intelligent?
...难道你们不是已经变得有智慧了吗？
Right? You see something.
对不对？你们有了一些理解。
That is, I seek security in the nation...
就是说，我在国家里寻找安全...
...you seek security in your nation...
...你在你的国家里寻找安全...
...and we are going to fight each other to be secure.
...并且我们通过国与国交战来获得安全。
And the governments exploit us, people exploit us for that reason.
各国政府依此来利用我们，人们因为这样的原因而利用我们。
So there is no security as long as there are nationalities.
所以，只要有各个国家存在，安全就不会存在。
S: What can we do about it? K: Darling, wait.
学：我们又能做什么呢？克：亲爱的，等一下。
S: But we insist that there is security in the nation.
学：但是我们坚信在国家里安全是存在的。
K: No, first see by questioning we have come to this point...
克：不，首先要看到，通过质疑，我们已经讨论到了这里...
...that when we try to seek security in the family...
...那就是，当我们想要在家庭中找寻安全...
...in the community and so on, in the nation...
...在团体中找寻安全，等等，在国家里寻找...
...and you also seek in your own way, nation...
...或者你以你的方式在找寻，在你的国家里找寻...
...and they quarrel when they fight each other, kill each other...
...于是人们争吵，彼此陷入战争，互相杀戮...
...security is denied to both of us. Right?
...双方都失去了获得安全的可能性。对不对?
So in nationalities there is no security.
所以，当不同的国家存在，就没有安全。
S: But how do we actually see that?
学：但是我们如何能真正看到这一点？
That there is no security in... K: It is obvious.
看到那样是没有安全可言的...克：这是显而易见的。
S: Nothing can be done if almost everybody thinks like that.
学：但是当几乎每一个人都是那样想的时候，人们就无能为力了。
K: The vast majority, 99.9 say...
克：绝大部分人，比如说99.9%的人都说...
...'Yes, we must kill each other to be secure'.
...“是的，为了安全，我们必须杀人”。
S: But that's just... S: OK.
学：但是，那只是...学：好吧。
If it's so... K: Not OK. (Laughter)
如果那是如此...克：不“好”。（笑声）
S: No. Could I just say something?
学：不是。能不能让我说一下？
You know, if it is so obvious why don't we actually change?
你知道，如果这是如此显而易见，人们为什么不真正地改变呢？
I've talked to students and staff after these talks...
几次讲话后我和学生以及工作人员讨论过...
...and they are just as confused as ever.
...他们和以往一样的困惑。
If it really is obvious that there is no security in my belief...
如果我的信仰里是没有安全的，而这是如此显而易见...
...my country and so on.
...我的国家里没有安全，等等。
K: Wait a minute, my country.
克：等一下，我的国家。
It's an illusion, isn't it?
那只是一个幻象，难道不是吗？
S: You mean it's not real. K: No. It doesn't exist.
学：你是说，国家不是真实存在的。克：是的，它不存在。
I want security...
我渴望安全...
...and you want security...
...你也渴望安全...
...and we say, 'Security lies in my nation'...
...于是我们说，“安全在我的国家里”...
...and you say security lies in your nation...
...你说安全在你的国家里...
...and we are killing each other.
...接着我们彼此杀戮。
Right? The United Nations is like that.
对不对？联合国就是这样的。
Right?
对不对？
So, there is no security in nationalities.
所以，只要不同国家存在，安全就不存在。
Right?
对不对？
S: But we see that, but that doesn't change...
学：是的，我们知道，但是这也改变不了...
...it is the same after the talk, the same, it's my country.
...我们结束这次谈话后，一切还是老样子，这是我的国家。
I saw it is not a security but it is always here.
我能认识到那并非安全的，但是情况一贯如此。
K: What?
克：什么？
S: He says it doesn't change after you know it's your...
学：他是说，即使你知道是没有安全的，什么也不会因此改变...
K: You change.
克：你改变。
Don't bother about the rest.
不要去担心其他人。
You become intelligent. We are talking about intelligence.
你变得有智慧。我们谈论的是智慧。
When you see for yourself there is no security in nationalities...
当你自己认识到不同国家里是没有安全可言的...
...that very perception is intelligence.
...认识到那一点即是智慧。
Right?
对不对？
S: But he is saying that he has only partially seen it...
学：但是一个人会说，他只是明白了一部分而已...
...so when he goes out he is still going on with it.
...所以面对问题时，他仍然会继续以往的做法。
K: Then you haven't seen it.
克：那么他就是还没有明白。
Be as simple as that.
就是这么简单的事情。
If you don't see it, don't say it's partial.
如果你还没有明白，不要说你明白了一部分。
It's like examining, a lot of blind people looking at an elephant.
这就像盲人摸象，一大群盲人在观察一只大象。
S: Why do we all say we do see it? K: Then don't be a nationalist.
学：为什么我们都说我们确实明白了？克：那么不要做一个国家主义者。
That's intelligence. Right?
那就是智慧。对不对？
S: I don't know what intelligence is.
学：我不知道什么是智慧。
K: You explain it, somebody explain.
克：你们来解释给他听，谁来解释？
S: Well, somebody tell me what intelligence is. Someone.
学：好吧，谁来告诉我什么是智慧。谁来说。
S: He has already told you last... S: No.
学：上一次他已经告诉我们...学：不是那样。
I've already heard what he says...
我已经听过他所讲的了...
...now I want to hear what someone in here says.
...现在我想听在座的哪一位来说一下。
S: What, you mean the proper definition or...
学：说什么，你是要听确切的定义还是...
S: No, intelligence, what is it for you?
学：不，智慧，对你来说，智慧是什么？
S: For me?
学：对我来说？
You mean - well, I believe what he says. (Laughter)
你是指--好的，我相信他所说的。（笑声）
K: You don't believe what I say.
克：你不要相信我所说的。
S: No, would someone care to explain...
学：不是，哪个人愿意来解释一下吗...
S: I would say it is an action that is not contradictory...
学：我认为那是一个行动，行动中没有对抗...
...somehow intelligence has to be whole, it cannot be fragmented...
...无论如何智慧必须是完整的，它不能被割裂开来...
...I mean, not that you say something...
...我的意思是，你不会说一套...
...and then you do something completely opposite.
...然后却做出完全相反的事情。
S: But do you actually live that way? S: No.
学：但是你能像你说得那样去生活吗？学：我做不到。
S: So it's just a bunch of words. S: Yes.
学：所以你说的只是一堆空话。学：没错。
S: But again, don't make it so complicated because...
学：但是，请不要把事情弄得太复杂，因为...
...Krishnaji is just taking one thing...
...克里希那吉只是举了一个例子...
...and he is talking about nationalism...
...他所说的是关于国家主义的问题...
...and he says if you drop nationalism...
...他说，如果你放下国家主义的想法...
...you are beginning to be intelligent...
...你就会开始变得有智慧...
...and that's the beginning of intelligence.
...那就是智慧的开端。
S: Yes, but we always talk about this intelligence...
学：对，但是我们总是在讨论这个智慧...
...we all want to live intelligently, but we never do.
...我们所有人都想生活得智慧，但是我们从来都没有做到过。
You know, we leave this room... K: It's up to you.
你们知道，当我们离开这个房间...克：这取决于你。
S: We do that. S: We do? Do we? Really?
学：我们都是这样的。学：我们是那样吗？对不对？真的是吗？
S: Do you? S: I don't do.
学：你是那样吗？学：我不是。
S: From now on do that.
学：从现在开始，做到这一点。
S: It's clear that everyone here knows a bit of what is going on...
学：我们都清楚，在座的每个人对此都有一定的了解...
...and is a bit intelligent, I think...
...都有一点的智慧，我认为...
...and still you see the mess here in the school.
...并且你仍会看到学校里的混乱。
I mean it's nice to be here, but still...
我是说，学校里很不错，但是仍然...
...exactly the same problems are here as everywhere else in the world.
...这里的问题和世界上其它地方的问题完全一样。
S: You can understand it but it's hard to actually do it.
学：你可以明白道理，但是要实际做到是很困难的。
K: You understand, I have lived in India...
克：你们知道，我曾经在印度生活过...
...and I believe, I am convinced my security is in India...
...我相信，我深信不疑，在印度我可以获得安全...
...and you are convinced in Pakistan next door...
...而你在邻国巴基斯坦，也同样深信不疑...
...that your security lies in Pakistan...
...你可以在巴基斯坦获得安全...
...and we fight each other for our security.
...于是我们为各自的安全而交战。
Right? Kill each other.
是这样吗？彼此杀戮。
You have no security when you kill me...
你不会因杀死我而获得安全...
...and I have no security when I kill you.
...我也无法因杀死你而获得安全。
It is so obvious.
这是多么显而易见啊。
Right? What are we... This is intelligence.
对不对？我们是...这个就是智慧。
S: But still, you know, there is this block.
学：但是，你知道，仍然存在这种阻碍。
I don't actually see it. S: Ken, are you nationalistic?
我不能够真正地看清它。学：肯，你是国家主义者吗？
Or are you talking about the subtler issues that we...
还是你在讨论一些更微妙的事情，比如我们...
S: Perhaps, I don't know.
学：或许吧，我不知道。
I can see it on the surface, yes, to believe in nationalism...
从表面上说，我能够理解，信仰国家主义...
...there is no security in it, but... K: All right, let's leave nationalism.
...并不能带来安全，但是...克：好的，让我们把国家主义放下。
S: But there is still something...
学：但是还有一些..
S: I feel I must feel something to actually see this.
学：我觉得，要真正地看到这个事实，我必须要感觉到些什么。
You know what I mean? K: Oh yes, I understand what you mean.
你知道我的意思吗？克：噢，是的，我明白你的意思。
People feel very patriotic, don't they?
人们内心非常地爱国，不是吗？
When this country is attacked, or went to war in the Falklands...
当一个国家遭到了袭击，或者加入了福克兰群岛（马岛）之战...
...people were tremendously excited, very patriotic.
...人们非常的兴奋，非常的爱国。
And for that reason go and kill somebody.
并且人们因此上战场去杀人。
S: We are so small-minded.
学：我们的头脑是如此狭隘。
K: What? S: Nothing.
克：什么？学：没什么。
K: Let's take another thing, perhaps that will explain it.
克：我们再来举个例子，或许可以解释清楚。
S: But if he can't see that one, is he going to see?
学：但是如果他不明白这一点，其他的他会明白吗？
If he can't see that as intelligence, what can he see? (Laughter)
如果他不明白那是智慧，他能明白什么呢？（笑声）
K: She is insulting you! (Laughter)
克：她在侮辱你！（笑声）
S: I don't mean to.
学：我不是有意的。
K: She says, if you can't see that what the hell can you see!
克：她说，如果你连这点都不理解，你到底能理解什么呢！
So let's take something else. We are questioning authority.
那么我们来另举一个例子。我们正在质疑权威。
In Christianity - I am not condemning Christianity...
在基督教里--我不是要声讨基督教...
...I am just examining it...
...我只是在作解释...
...in Christianity belief and faith are essential.
...在基督教里，信仰和忠诚是最基本的。
Right?
对不对？
Why have they made belief and faith so important?
为什么他们要如此强调信仰和忠诚？
S: Well, if I live according to the Christian belief...
学：嗯，如果我依照基督教的信仰生活...
...I'll live eternally after I die.
...我死后将能获得永生。
K: Yes, what does that mean - question it. What does that mean?
克：是的，那究竟是什么意思--质疑它。那意味着什么？
S: It is another kind of security. K: Yes.
学：那是另一种安全。克：是的。
You see? Right?
你们明白吗？对不对？
If I believe in Jesus, if I believe in the Virgin Mary...
如果我信仰耶稣，如果我信仰圣母玛利亚...
...if I believe, have complete faith, I feel safe.
...如果我有信仰，有完全的忠诚，我就感到安全。
Right?
对不对？
And the Indian, 5000 years, says, 'I believe not in Jesus...
在印度，人们五千年来都在说，“我信仰的不是上帝...
...but I believe in my own god'. He feels perfectly safe.
...而是我自己的神”。人们感觉到绝对的安全。
You come along and say, 'What nonsense this is.
你出现了，对我们说，“这简直是无稽之谈。
It is just a belief'.
那仅仅是种信仰而已”。
You can invent any belief and find security in that. Right?
你可以发明任何一种信仰然后从中找到安全感。对不对？
So is there security in belief?
那么信仰中有安全可言吗？
S: No. K: Right? Why do you say, 'no'?
学：没有。克：对不对？你为什么说，“没有”？
S: Well, because if you...
学：因为如果你...
K: Why do you say, 'no'? Question why do you say, 'no'.
克：你为什么说，“没有”？质疑你为什么说，“没有”。
S: Because if you believe that, and I believe this, we meet...
学：因为如果你信仰那种宗教，我信仰这种宗教，我们相遇时...
...there is no security...
...就不会有安全存在...
...because we will blow each other into smithereens.
...因为我们会把彼此打击得体无完肤。
K: It is the same thing with nationalities.
克：国家主义也是同样的问题。
Right? That's all.
对不对？就是这样的。
So, understand now, a vast majority of the Western world accept this...
那么，现在就弄明白，西方世界绝大部分的人都接受...
...belief and faith...
...宗教信仰和忠诚...
...in all their church and all that, they believe that very strongly.
...在各式教堂还有其它宗教场所，人们有着根深蒂固的信仰。
Which means what? They create an illusion...
那意味着什么？他们制造了一个幻象...
...an image, and believe in that.
...一种偶像，然后去信仰它。
Which means they are living in illusion.
也就是说他们生活在幻象当中。
And illusion gives them safety.
而这种幻象为他们提供了安全感。
They feel safe in illusions. Right?
他们在幻象当中感到安全。对不对？
Now have I got illusions? Have you got illusions?
那么我心存幻象吗？你心存幻象吗？
S: OK, perhaps I've seen... K: Wait, question it.
学：好吧，可能我已经看到...克：等一下，质疑它。
S: No, I've read that most of our thoughts are controlled...
学：不是，我曾经读到过我们所有的思想都是受控于...
...by the subconscious, that which we are unaware of.
...我们的潜意识，然而我们对此毫无觉知。
K: We will come to that, old boy, presently.
克：我们会讨论到那一点，孩子，很快。
I am asking you, do you...
我在问你，你心存幻象吗...
...I have asked that question, answer it.
...我已经问了这个问题，请你回答。
Do you have beliefs so strongly which give you comfort...
你有根深蒂固，给你带来安慰的信仰吗...
...feel, my god, at last I have found something that gives me satisfaction.
...感觉到，天哪，我终于找到了能带给我满足的信仰。
That means, are you living in illusions? Right?
这就是说，你是否活在幻象当中？对不对？
Have you got illusions?
你心存幻象吗？
S: Yes. K: Question why.
学：是的。克：质疑为什么会这样。
S: If you think I am a good student, and you think I am a good student...
学：如果你认为我是个好学生，那么就会认为我是个好学生...
...but then you see another person who is a better student...
...但是接着你见到另外一个人，他的学习更好...
...or who perhaps is a bit quicker than you, and you get jealous.
...或者这个人的反应比你快，于是你开始嫉妒。
K: Yes, go on. S: And so you definitely...
克：是的，继续说。学：那么你一定会...
...if you try to get away from the jealousy by suppressing it...
...如果你试图以压抑的方式摆脱嫉妒...
...it doesn't work.
...那是没有用的。
K: No. I am asking you, old boy - if I may call you old boy...
克：不。我是在问你，孩子--如果我可以叫你孩子...
I am asking you - have you got any illusions?
我在问你--你心存任何幻象吗？
S: Yes.
学：是的。
K: Right? Question why you have.
克：对不对？质疑你为何心存幻象。
S: Because... K: Question. Question.
学：因为...克：质疑。质疑。
First realise, first become aware that you have illusions. Right?
首先要意识到它，首先要知道你心存各种幻象。对不对？
I have illusions of my country...
我心存对国家的幻象...
...I have illusions that I'm a Christian...
...我心存幻象--我是一个基督徒...
...I worship and all the rest of it. That's an illusion.
...我崇拜还有宗教的其它种种。这是幻象。
And have you any other kind of illusions?
那么你们还心存其他幻象吗？
S: We all have ideas or illusions of what or who we are.
学：关于我们是什么，我们是谁，我们都有一堆的想法和幻象。
K: Go on. So are ideas illusions?
克：继续。那么想法是幻象吗？
Go on, sir, question. Are ideals illusions?
继续，先生，质疑它。各种理想是幻象吗？
S: Yes, because they never deal with what is happening right now.
学：是的，因为人们从来都不去面对正在发生的事情。
K: That's right.
克：是这样的。
S: It's always something you want to be, as compared to something.
学：当人们比来比去之后，总会想要成为什么。
K: So, ideals, ideas - right?
克：所以，各种理想，各种想法--对吗？
...and your beliefs are illusions.
...还有你的各种信仰，都是幻象。
Why do you have them?
为什么你们心存幻象？
S: Because you are insecure. K: Yes.
学：因为人们缺乏安全感。克：是的。
So, you have found security in illusions.
所以，人们在幻象当中找到了安全感。
S: Everyone thinks.
学：每个人都思考。
K: That's what I am saying, everybody thinks, but I am asking you.
克：那就是我在说的，每个人都思考，但是我问的是你。
S: I have something to it, sometimes I think.
学：我可以理解一部分，我想有时候我可以。
K: Not sometimes, now.
克：不是有时候，现在。
I am asking you now - have you got illusions of such kind...
我现在正在问你--你心存如此的幻象吗...
...in which you are living... with which you are living?
...你是否生活在幻象中，你是否与这些幻象共存？
Now, please understand why we are questioning.
现在，请明白我们为什么要质疑。
We are questioning all these things by understanding them...
我们通过去理解所有这一切来质疑...
...realizing their nature and becoming intelligent.
...通过了解它们的本质，通过变得智慧--去质疑。
If a man lives in kind of false illusions he is not intelligent.
如果一个人生活在某种错误的幻象当中，他是不会有智慧的。
Right?
对不对？
So we are trying to find out what is supreme intelligence.
所以我们试图找出什么才是至高无上的智慧。
Supreme intelligence is to have no illusions.
至高无上的智慧就是没有任何幻象的状态。
That's only the beginning of it.
那仅仅是智慧的开端。
Right? Have you got illusions?
对不对？你们心存幻象吗？
S: Well, I have made an illusion of perhaps intelligence, you know.
学：好的，我可能对智慧心存一个幻象，你知道的。
I think that if I find out what intelligence is...
我认为如果我明白了什么是智慧...
...I will be completely by myself. K: Oh no.
...我将变得完完全全的独自一人。克：哦，不会。
I might join you. (Laughter)
我可能加入你的行列。（笑声）
S: You know, and that scares the hell out of me.
学：你知道，想到这一点，我就觉得非常恐怖。
K: I might join you. All of us might join you...
克：我可能会加入你的行列。我们所有的人都可能加入你...
...and say, 'By Jove, what an intelligent man...
...然后对你说，“天哪，这是个多么智慧的人啊...
...let's find out how he got this intelligence'.
...让我们来找出他是如何变得如此智慧的”。
So do you, all of us in this room, do you have illusions?
那么你们，我们在座的所有人，你们心存幻象吗？
S: Aren't your words illusions for us?
学：你的话难道对我们来说不是幻象吗？
S: That depends on you.
学：这取决于你。
S: Isn't what you say illusion for us? K: If you accept it. (Laughs)
学：你所说的难道不是我们的幻象吗？克：如果你接受的话。（笑声）
But if you begin to question your illusions...
但是如果你开始质疑你的各种幻象...
...not my illusions.
...而不是质疑我的幻象。
S: You don't talk about stopping your illusions or suppressing them...
学：你说的并非停止幻象或者压制它们...
...just questioning them. K: Yes.
...而仅仅是质疑它们。克：是的。
If you suppress them they will pop up again. (Laughter)
如果你压制它们，它们还会再一次突然冒出来。（笑声）
Like Kleenex!
像舒洁（Kleenex）纸巾一样！
S: If... No. (Laughter) K: Ladies first.
学：如果...不。（笑声）克：女士优先。
S: Isn't it true also that many of our illusions...
学：我们心中的许多幻象也是产生于我们的局限...
...breed from our conditioning? K: Yes.
...难道不是这样吗？克：是的。
S: And what I wonder is that - OK, this is just for myself only...
学：但我仍然想知道--好吧，这仅仅是给我自己问的...
...that I've grown up with an exposure to what you have been...
...我从婴儿时期开始就是在你所说的那些幻象中...
...saying since I've been a baby. K: So, wait a minute, as you said...
...成长起来的。克：那么，请等一下，如你所说...
...do not all these illusions indicate our conditioning?
...难道这些幻象不正是显示出了我们的局限吗？
S: Yes.
学：是的。
K: Now, question your conditioning now.
克：那么，现在来质疑你的局限。
S: Well I think... K: First look at it carefully.
学：好的，我想...克：首先仔细地注视它。
What's your conditioning?
你的局限是什么？
S: I haven't had that religious or political conditioning.
学：我从来都不受宗教或者政治的局限。
K: No, you may not have religious or political conditioning...
克：不，你或许不受宗教或者政治的限制...
...but you are conditioned.
...但你是有局限的。
Right? Question that. What do you mean by conditioning?
对不对？质疑它。你说的局限性是什么意思？
Are you conditioned?
你是局限的吗？
S: Conditioned by my own experience even.
学：甚至是被我自己的经验所限。
Maybe not even anything... K: That's right.
或许甚至任何事情...克：是这样的。
Then you begin to question your experience.
那么开始质疑你的经验。
S: I am trying. (Laughs)
学：我正在努力。（笑声）
It's so difficult to separate it. K: No.
但是要区分是非常困难的。克：不。
By questioning, not saying, 'I am right, I am wrong' - right?
去质疑，而不是说，“我是对的，我是错的”--对不对？
...by enquiring, exploring...
...通过质询，探索...
...your mind which has become dull through conditioning...
...你由于局限而变得迟钝的头脑...
...begins to quicken...
...开始变得灵敏...
...not quicken, it becomes more alive.
...不是灵敏，而是变得更有活力。
Now, will you all do this?
那么，你们所有的人会这样做吗？
You are here at Brockwood not only to be academically excellent...
你们在布洛克伍德学校，不仅仅是要在学业上优秀...
...but also psychologically supremely intelligent.
...而且也要在心理上有超凡的智慧。
Right?
对不对？
S: That's an illusion. (Laughter) K: What's that?
学：那是个幻象。（笑声）克：那是什么？
S: It's an illusion, because it can hurt...
学：那是一个幻象，因为它会伤害...
K: No, no, no. Just listen.
克：不，不，不。先听我说。
Is it an illusion that you have to be academically good?
你要在学业上出色，那是个幻象吗？
S: If you work hard enough you can be academically good.
学：如果你非常努力，就可以在学业上表现出色。
K: You can be excellent academically, can't you?
克：你们可以在学业上表现得很出色，对不对？
By studying.
通过学习。
S: Yes, but... K: Wait, wait. Right?
学：是的，但是...克：等一下，等一下。好吗？
Studying, applying, paying attention to your beastly little books.
学习，学以致用，专心致志于你那些令人讨厌的小小课本。
S: Yes, but some of it's interesting so what's bad about that?
学：但是其中的一些很有意思，那么学习又有什么害处呢？
Some of it's interesting.
有一些是很有意思的。
Some of the work that you do is interesting.
我们学习的一些科目是很有趣的。
K: Yes, you have to be because it means if you are...
克：是的，你必须要在学业上出色，因为这意味着...
...excellent academically you may get a good job.
...学业上的出色成绩可能会帮你获得不错的工作。
Money. You have to earn.
金钱。你必须要挣钱。
Now, psychologically, can't you be supremely excellent?
那么，在心理上，难道你们不能做到超凡的出色吗？
Which means you live intelligently...
那意味着你们要智慧地生活...
...therefore there is never conflict, and so on.
...那样的生活中没有冲突，等等。
I won't go into all that.
我不需要一一赘述。
S: So we have to think about everything we do...
学：所以我们必须要考虑我们所做的每一件事...
...I mean all our reactions. K: Yes. You have to watch...
...我是说我们所有的反应。克：是的。你们必须要注意观察...
...what you think, why you think...
...你们所想的，以及为什么你会那么想...
...why you have such emotions...
...你为什么会有如此种种的情绪...
...why you separate yourself from, and so on.
...为什么你有人我分别，等等。
You become aware, you become sensitive, alive.
你会变得清明，敏感和充满活力。
S: We try.
学：我们会尝试。
S: Yes, I think most people in this room have actually tried it...
学：是的，我想在座的每一个人都曾经认真地尝试过...
...but after a period of time we forget about it.
...但是一段时间后我们就都淡忘了。
K: Can you forget hunger? S: No.
克：你会忘记饥饿吗？学：不会。
But we become aware of... K: No, don't go off.
但是我们会感觉到饥饿...克：不，不要离题。
Can you forget danger?
你们会忘记危险吗？
S: No.
学：不会。
But that's all the result of the intelligence of the body.
但是那完全是身体智慧的结果。
K: Look at it, old boy, just wait a minute.
克：观察它，孩子，请稍等片刻。
Can you forget danger? S: No.
你会忘记危险吗？学：不会。
K: Sir, why? Why don't you forget it?
克：先生，为什么？你为什么无法忘记危险？
Question it. I am questioning you, and you're answering.
质疑它。我在质疑你，而你在回答我。
S: I don't want to die. If you are pointing a gun at me...
学：我不想死。如果你拿一把枪对着我...
K: Please, you know what danger is. S: Yes.
克：好了，你知道什么是危险。学：是的。
K: Do you forget it? S: No.
克：你会忘记危险吗？学：不会。
K: Why not? S: I think you do.
克：为什么不会？学：我想你会忘记。
S: OK, physical danger I don't forget. K: You won't.
学：好的，身体上的危险我们不会忘记。克：你们不会。
Is not nationalism danger?
难道国家主义不是危险吗？
S: Yes.
学：是的。
K: So, you say, 'I am not a nationalist...
克：那么，你说，“我不是一个国家主义者...
...I don't belong to any country'.
...我不属于任何一个国家”。
That's a danger.
那就是一个危险。
Right? Why do you forget it?
对不对？你为什么忘记它？
You can't. S: But I do. I do.
你不能忘记它。学：但是我会忘。我会忘。
K: You do?
克：你会忘记？
S: Oh, for god's sake... This is all very difficult.
学：哦，看在老天的份上...这真是太困难了。
K: No, no.
克：不，不。
You see, you are not questioning, you are saying something without...
你看，你没有在质疑，你说的话没有（好好考虑）...
...I am asking you to question everything you do, think, ask.
...我请你来质疑你做的一切，想的一切，询问的一切。
S: Well, perhaps that is not possible with the modern condition.
学：好吧，或许在当代的重重限制当中，那是不可能的。
K: That's an excuse.
克：那是一个借口。
You can question.
你可以去质疑。
S: Sir, it seems the past year I have been really questioning...
学：先生，在过去的一年中我一直在认真地质疑着...
...everything I think.
...质疑我思考的每一件事。
And sometimes I feel I am just going in circles...
但是有时我感觉自己仅仅是在兜圈子...
...just going within my... K: Of course.
...只是在我思想的范围里...克：当然。
But you are not questioning thinking.
但是你没有在质疑思想本身。
S: Well, I am questioning that right now. (Laughs)
学：嗯，我正在质疑它。（笑声）
I am questioning that it seems within our intellect...
我在质疑，但是它似乎局限于我们的智力...
...we try to become more aware of our thoughts...
...我们想要对我们的思想变得更觉知...
...and it's like our thoughts are aware of our thoughts...
...但是那似乎是我们的思想在觉察我们的思想...
...and it's like... K: Yes, quite right. But, you don't...
...而且就像...克：是的，非常对。但是，你不能...
Look, I begin to question nationalism. Right?
听我说，我开始质疑国家主义。对不对？
Then I come to the point I question my thinking - thinking itself.
然后我深入到某一点开始质疑思想--思想本身。
S: So, it's like the intellect is only an instrument...
学：那么，就像智力只是一种工具...
...and it's like it becomes sharper and sharper, to a certain point...
...而且就像是，它变得越来越锋利，达到某种程度...
...it just becomes - there's nothing more you can do with it.
...它就变得--你已经没有什么可做的了。
K: It becomes sharper and sharper therefore...
克：它变得越来越锋利，因此...
...at the end of it, it becomes dull.
...最终，它变得非常钝。
S: It's...
学：那是...
K: Have you understood what I said?
克：你明白我刚才说的话吗？
The more you sharpen an instrument...
你越是磨砺你的工具...
...it gradually wears off and becomes dull.
...工具却会渐渐损耗并且最终变得迟钝。
Right?
对不对？
A chisel, keep on polishing, polishing...
一个凿子，不断地磨啊磨啊...
...and using it, it becomes dull.
...不断地使用，最终将变得非常钝。
So question why your mind is becoming dull by merely going round and round.
所以质疑为什么你的头脑仅仅是不停地兜圈子，为何会变得迟钝。
S: Because it is all thought, it's just...
学：因为那都是思想，那只是...
K: No, you are not questioning it.
克：不，你没有在质疑。
I get depressed - suppose I do, I don't, I have no depression...
我变得抑郁-假设我变得抑郁，我其实不抑郁，并没有抑郁症...
...I never have been depressed - suppose I am depressed.
...我从来没有抑郁过，--假设我现在是抑郁的。
I say, 'Yes, I am very depressed'.
我说，“是的，我非常的抑郁”。
I accept it.
我接受它。
I don't say, 'Now, why am I depressed?'
我不是说，“那么，我为何是抑郁的呢？”
Is it I am thinking about myself?
是因为我正在想着我自己吗？
Is it I can't get what I want?
是因为我无法得到我渴望获得的吗？
Is it somebody is better than me?
是因为某人比我强吗？
Somebody is more beautiful than me?
是因为有人比我美丽吗？
Somebody is more rich, and so on, so on...
是因为有人比我富有吗？等等，等等...
...is that the reason why I am depressed?
...那是我抑郁的原因所在吗？
Right?
对不对？
If I am, then I say, 'Why am I doing this?'
如果是因为那些，我会说，“我为何要这样做？”
You follow?
你们明白吗？
Move.
行动。
Right, sir?
对不对，先生？
Are you doing it?
你在这样做吗？
S: Sir, I think there must be a result...
学：先生，我想从这种质疑当中...
...or a decision from this very questioning.
...必然会生出一个结果或者决定。
So shall we go on questioning this result?
那么我们应该继续质疑这个结果吗？
K: I don't quite understand.
克：我不是很明白。
S: He says the questioning brings about a result.
学：他是说，这个质疑会带来一个结果。
Should we question the result as well?
我们应该也同样质疑那个结果吗？
K: Of course.
克：当然。
S: But then when we react...
学：但是那么当我们作出反应...
K: You stop questioning only when there's...
克：只有当已经没有任何可以去质疑的事情时...
...nothing more to question. (Laughter)
...你才可以停止质疑。（笑声）
That's not a clever statement, but see what happens.
这不是一个自作聪明的说法，请你们观察会有什么发生。
That when you begin to question seriously, step by step...
那就是当你开始认真地质疑，一步一步的...
...then there is a point where there is only that state of mind...
...直到某一点，只存在一种头脑的状态...
...that has no problems at all.
...一种完全没有任何问题的状态。
I won't go into all this.
我不会详述所有的一切。
But you don't start!
但是你们都不愿意开始！
You want to reach the end at the beginning.
你们在一开始就想得到最终的结果。
S: Sir, do you say then that if you are depressed, question it...
学：先生，你是否在说，当一个人抑郁的时候，质疑抑郁...
...or just be aware of it?
...还是说仅仅觉察到抑郁？
If you are depressed are you saying we should question it...
当你抑郁的时候，你是说我们应该质疑抑郁吗...
...or just be aware of it?
...还是仅仅去觉察到抑郁？
K: Yes, I am depressed, I'll show it to you.
克：是的，我是抑郁的，我来解释给你看。
I want to know why I am depressed.
我想知道我为何是抑郁的。
I don't say, 'Yes, I am depressed'.
我不是说，“是的，我是抑郁的”。
I say, 'Why am I depressed? Is it I have eaten wrongly?
而是说，“我为何抑郁？是因为我的饮食有问题吗？
I have not slept properly?
是因为我的睡眠有问题吗？
Or I am depressed because I can't get what I want...
或者我的抑郁是因为我没有获得我渴望得到的吗...
...or I can't - I am not as good as you, or I am not as clever as you'.
...再或者--是因为我不如你优秀，还是我没有你聪明”。
Right? Which means I am always comparing.
对不对？那就意味着我总是在比较。
Why do I compare?
我为何要比较？
Is it possible not to compare?
我能够做到不比较吗？
See, I am questioning all this.
看，我在质疑这一切。
Can I live without comparison?
我可以在生活中不进行比较吗？
S: If we ask continually why...
学：如果我们一直不停地问为什么...
...can't that process just reinforce that whole ego thing...
...当我们试图在质疑着...
...that we are trying to question? K: Of course.
...难道这个过程不会加强那个自我吗？克：当然。
That's why I am saying it must be done with intelligence.
那就是我为何说这样的质疑需要智慧。
So you begin with the most ordinary things.
所以你从最普通的事情开始质疑。
S: And that intelligence we don't have.
学：但是我们没有你说的那样的智慧。
We try to get intelligence...
我们试图变得有智慧...
...and we have to use our intelligence to get the intelligence.
...并且我们必须用我们的智慧来获得智慧。
S: Yes, exactly. (Laughs)
学：是的，完全是那样。（笑声）
That's the problem...
那就是问题所在...
S: It's like, what intelligence are you talking about?
学：就像是，你谈的究竟是那种智慧？
I mean the description of intelligence we understand...
我的意思是，我们所了解的对智慧的描述是...
...is that intelligence is not limited by thought or experience.
...这种智慧是不会被思想和经验所限制的...
K: Yes.
克：是的。
S: So how can I use the intelligence I have right now...
学：那么我又怎么能使用我目前所拥有的...
...that is limited by thought and experience?
...被思想和经验所限制的智慧呢？
I mean it seems so... K: No. Have you got intelligence now?
我的意思是这看起来那么...克：不。你现在拥有智慧吗？
S: I think I do sometimes, yes.
学：我觉得有时候我有，是的。
K: Not sometimes. S: I can't say that I do.
克：不是有时。学：我不能说我有智慧。
K: You see, you make... Now why don't you question that?
克：你看，你把...那么你为何不质疑它呢？
Have you got intelligence now? S: I don't think I do, no.
你现在拥有智慧吗？学：我认为我没有，并没有。
K: No. So begin.
克：没有。那么开始质疑吧。
S: Not the intelligence that I want to have.
学：不是我想要的智慧。
K: So begin. Are you nationalistic...
克：那么开始质疑吧。你是国家主义者吗...
...are you seeking safety in your little family...
...你在你的小家庭里寻求安全感吗...
...seeking security in your ideas?
...在你的想法中寻求安全感吗？
Sir, I am doing all the questioning, you're not.
先生，我在进行质疑的行动，而你却没有。
S: What if you seek security in some things but not in others?
学：如果你在一些事情上寻求安全感，而在另外的事情上却没有，会怎样？
K: Yes. So what do you seek security in?
克：好的。那么你在什么事情里寻求安全感？
In your looks?
从你的长相吗？
In your family?
从你的家庭吗？
In some god? In some illusion?
从某些神那里吗？从某些幻象里吗？
You see, I am doing... (laughs)
你看，我在质疑...（笑声）
Sir, what I am pointing out very simply is...
先生，我想指出的事情非常简单...
...most of us are so conditioned - right? - that we become very dull.
...我们大部分的人是非常局限的--对不对？也就是说--我们变得非常迟钝。
We repeat what somebody has said...
我们重复别人所说的话...
...or we read a great deal and be very...
...或者我们读很多的书...
...knowledgeable, but you may be stupid.
...从而变得很有知识，但是你可能依然是很愚蠢的。
So I say, find out for yourself what is intelligence.
所以我说，依靠自己来发现，什么才是智慧。
And you can find out that by asking, questioning, doubting.
并且你可以通过提问，质疑和怀疑来找到答案。
You can't doubt everything...
你不可能怀疑所有的事物...
...there is electricity, that light is there, you can't doubt it.
...比如说电的存在，灯光的存在，你不能质疑这个。
Right?
对不对?
The tree, you can't doubt it, it is there.
树就存在于此，你不能去怀疑它。
Right? The governments are there, the policeman is there.
对不对？政府存在，警察存在。
All the churches, all the things in the churches are there.
所有的教堂，以及教堂里的一切都存在于那里。
So you begin to question. S: Your anxiety is there.
所以你要开始去质疑。学：你的焦虑也存在。
K: Yes, or the scientists.
克：是的，或者科学家也存在。
S: He said, your anxiety. K: Anxiety. All right.
学：他是说，你的焦虑存在。克：焦虑。好的。
Question anxiety. Why are you anxious?
质疑焦虑感。你们为何会焦虑？
The majority of people are anxious. Right?
大部分的人都焦虑。对不对？
Because they have no money...
因为他们没有钱...
...or they are anxious their husband may be looking at somebody else.
...或者是因为担心她们的丈夫可能在看别人。
Right? Anxiety.
对不对？焦虑。
Are you anxious, any of you?
你们焦虑吗，在座的每一位？
You are anxious?
你焦虑吗？
S: Sometimes, yes. K: Why?
学：有时候，是的。克：为什么呢？
S: Because of different things. K: Tell me one.
学：因为不同的事情。克：告诉我一件。
S: No.
学：不。
S: Isn't it that the desperateness for security is very forceful...
学：难道不是因为我们太过拼命地追求安全感...
...that the atmosphere of questioning is not there, that's why...
...以至于质疑的氛围就消失了吗，这就是为什么...
K: Tunki, I can't hear you.
克：汤奇，我听不到你说什么。
S: What he says is that the desperate search...
学：他说的是，因为我们不顾一切地追寻...
...for security prevents actual questioning.
...安全，这妨碍了真正的质疑。
K: Yes, sir.
克：是的先生。
S: So, how can questioning... K: Now just a minute, Tunki...
学：那么，质疑如何能够...克：请等一下，汤奇...
...when I am very anxious I can't question. Right?
...当我非常焦虑时，我将无法质疑。对不对？
But then I begin... there must be - I am not anxious all the time.
但是接着我开始...一定会有--我不是任何时候都焦虑。
There is anxiety when I wake up...
当我起床时，我焦虑...
...and as I take my coffee or tea, whatever it is...
...然后我喝了咖啡或者茶，不管是什么...
...that anxiety recedes a little bit, then I begin to question.
...焦虑退去了一点点，接着我开始质疑。
S: In this questioning of why...
学：在这个质疑为什么的过程中...
...would it not be important to question...
...非常重要的是，质疑...
...without trying to find an answer.
...但是不试图从中找到一个答案。
It seems that if we try to find an answer...
似乎是，如果我们试图找出一个答案...
...we just give ourselves excuses for what we are.
...我们只是给我们现在的样子找各种借口而已。
K: Of course.
克：当然。
When you question and find an answer, question that answer. (Laughs)
当你质疑并且找出了一个答案，质疑那个答案。（笑声）
You follow, sir? Learn the art.
你明白吗，先生？学会这种质疑的艺术。
It's not just that you begin to question everything...
那并非仅仅是你开始去质疑一切...
...learn the art of questioning.
...学会质疑的艺术。
You stop questioning sometimes and say...
有时你停下来，然后问...
...'Yes, by Jove, why am I questioning?'
...“是的，天啊, 我为何在质疑？”
Look without questioning.
不带质疑地观察一下。
You follow? Learn about it.
你们明白吗？学会它。
S: Do people become discouraged with their questioning...
学：当人们质疑，却无法从中得到什么的时候...
...because they don't get something from it?
...他们会变得气馁吗？
K: Yes, sir. They get discouraged, disappointed, hurt.
克：是的，先生。人们会变得气馁，失望，感觉受伤。
S: Because they want something that will give them security.
学：因为他们渴望有什么东西可以为他们带来安全。
K: Yes.
克：是的。
Or, I have been secure and you're taking it away from me...
或者，我已经有安全感了，可是你把它从我这里拿走了...
...I become anxious.
...我变得很焦虑。
What I am... Sir - just two minutes, just listen.
我是这样的...先生--只需要两分钟，请听我说。
Will you?
可以吗？
I saw that ticket, that sticker on that bumper in California...
我看到那张贴纸，在加州那辆车的保险杠上的贴纸...
...and I said, I wonder if the gentleman...
...于是我说，我想知道将贴纸贴在保险杠上的...
...or the person who put that sticker...
...那位绅士，或者那个人...
...on the bumper really questions, or it's just a slogan.
...他真的有质疑吗，还是说，那仅仅是一个口号。
You understand what I am saying?
你明白我所说的吗？
It is just a slogan...
那只是一个口号...
...but he never questions, says, 'Why am I doing this?
...而他从来都不质疑，从来不说，“我为何这样做？
Why am I thinking this?
我为何这么想？
Why do I believe?'
我为何相信？”
So, questioning is a great art.
所以，质疑是一种了不起的艺术。
Right? It isn't that I question, I move, I see the subtleties of it.
对不对？不只是我去质疑，去行动，而是我看到其中的微妙之处。
Right? See the depth of it.
对不对？去看到它的深邃。
And the beauty of enquiry...
并且看到质询当中的美...
...see bit by bit how extraordinarily complex this thing is.
...一点一点地看到，这是多么不同寻常的复杂的一件事。
Why man has lived in illusions for thousands of years...
人类为何在幻象中生活了几千年的时间...
...if it is not Christian gods then there is Muslim gods.
...如果不是基督教的诸神，那么就会有穆斯林的诸神。
Right? If it isn't that, there have been gods...
对不对？如果没有那些神，人类在过去的五千年甚至更久的时间里...
...by the thousand for the last 5000 years and more.
...就会有数以千计各种各样的别的神。
Some like the Buddhists deny god...
有些人，如佛教徒，否认神...
...but there is always this search...
...但是人们总是在搜寻...
...longing for something beyond all this misery.
...渴望那些超越神秘的存在。
Right?
对不对？
All this conflict, all this ugliness in the world.
所有的这些冲突，世界上所有的丑陋。
So they invent something and they worship it.
于是人们发明一些事物，然后去崇拜它。
You understand?
你们明白吗？
S: Like enlightenment. K: Yes, quite right.
学：就像觉悟。克：是的，非常对。
Enlightenment is not something you experience...
觉悟并非你经历到某种经验...
...or something that somebody gives you.
...或者某人带给你觉悟。
That's all such nonsense.
那些都是无稽之谈。
So, as I was saying, sir, find out the art of questioning.
所以，如我所说，先生，发现质疑的艺术。
Learn a great deal about it.
好好地学习这种艺术。
You spend a great deal of time, don't you...
你们都花了大量时间，不是吗...
...in mathematics, learning mathematics. Right?
...在数学学习上，来学习数学。对不对？
Or geography, history, whatever it is...
或者是在地理，历史上，无论你学什么...
...and you don't give even ten minutes to this.
...而你们甚至不会给这件事十分钟的时间。
And so you become excellent in one direction...
所以你们一方面变得出色...
...and dull in the other direction.
...在其它的方面却变得迟钝。
What time is it? S: One o'clock.
几点了？学：一点。
K: I think we had better stop, don't you.
克：我想我们最好结束吧，你们说呢。
No? (Laughs)
不同意？（笑声）
Would you like to try something?
你们想做个尝试吗？
Sit very quietly - just a minute, just a minute - before you sit.
请非常安静地坐着--就一分钟，仅仅一分钟--当你坐下来之前。
Sit very quietly, absolutely quiet...
非常安静地坐着，纯然的安静...
...with your eyes closed and find out what you are thinking.
...闭上眼睛，看看你在想些什么。
And why you are thinking that particular thought...
以及你为何有这个特定的想法...
...or a series of thoughts.
...或者这一系列的思绪。
Try it.
试一下。
And find out if your brain can be so quiet, without a single thought.
并且去发现，你的大脑是否可以如此安静，完全没有任何思想。 |
发表于 2010-1-2 12:03
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